Do atheists believe in objective morality?

[Freodin]

By who's objective rule do differentiated between good and evil to self regulate and by what or who do you measure or consider our objective rule that all should live by?

Excuse me, I am trying hard to make sense of what you say. I am sure that you as well are trying your best. Perhaps it would be better to keep your sentences simple?

Let´s see if I understood you correctly.
You are asking me: "By who´s objective rule do you differate between good and evil?" (I cannot fathom how that self-regulation fits in here.)

Answer: I don´t follow any objective rules. I follow my own subjective rules, which are heavily influenced by my education, my enviroment and the situation I am in.

Second question: "Where do I get my objective rule that all should live by?"
Answer: I don´t think that there is any objective rule that all should live by.

Hitlers Litmus testing could have eliminated most of the population if Hitler was able to play out his hypothesis?

Yes, it could have. And I personally consider that evil. You also personally consider that evil. Hitler and Goebbels and the Nazis did not personally consider that evil. That is subjectivity.

And now I´d like you to explain why that is OBJECTIVELY evil.

Was Hitler Evil or Stalin, Mao, Castro, Cha etc? If not then why did the world clamor to eliminate them? Why is there war? If there is no such thing as evil? As I have said before we can't help a man that has a bad mental attitude! Evil is a form of insanity. Look at our prison systems......normal people don't go there per-say!

Outch, I am just to quick to reply, so I am missing out on some of your edits. Sorry for that.

Take a look at what you just wrote. Normal, good people don´t go to prison. (Debatable, but let´s say it is correct for now.)
What do we, normal good people, do with all these evil, insane people? We put them away! We remove them! Sometimes we (at least in the USA) kill them!

So what do you suggest, when you country or your people is threatened with hordes of evil, insane communists, capitalists, Jews or imperialists or whatever you - PERSONALLY - see as evil?
Concentrate them into camps perhaps? Execute them for crimes against state and people?

 

[allhart]

Excuse me, I am trying hard to make sense of what you say. I am sure that you as well are trying your best. Perhaps it would be better to keep your sentences simple?

Let´s see if I understood you correctly.
You are asking me: "By who´s objective rule do you differate between good and evil?" (I cannot fathom how that self-regulation fits in here.)

Answer: I don´t follow any objective rules. I follow my own subjective rules, which are heavily influenced by my education, my enviroment and the situation I am in.

Second question: "Where do I get my objective rule that all should live by?"
Answer: I don´t think that there is any objective rule that all should live by.


Yes, it could have. And I personally consider that evil. You also personally consider that evil. Hitler and Goebbels and the Nazis did not personally consider that evil. That is subjectivity.

And now I´d like you to explain why that is OBJECTIVELY evil.

You contradicting yourself, my friend. What makes a serial killer good? Your telling me it depends on who receiving and giving the action. Ideas and actions have consequences for all who receive and give that action!

About my writing please bare with me and thanks for helping me. Which to say I'm under objective rules in structuring our thoughts and sentences and may I ask by who's authority do follow these rules? How are we to make sense of it all?

 

[allhart]

How do we make sense of it all and if I followed my subjective feelings towards every aspect to or of my life I'd be in utterly and completely living in chaos! For example: If I woke up in the morning and didn't feel like going to work which is most of the time I'd be jobless and broke!

 

[Freodin]

You contradicting yourself, my friend. What makes a serial killer good? Your telling me it depends on who receiving and giving the action. Ideas and actions have consequences for all who receive and give that action!

I did never say that serial killers are good. But I am asking you to explain OBJECTIVELY why they are evil.

A serial killer might be insane. He might be driven to kill by his own personal views. That hurts people... so we - who might been on the receiving side - call him "evil".

But we - the good people - take such a serial killer and kill him. Are we evil?
If we make a mistake, catch the wrong person and execute him... are we evil?

About my writing please bare with me and thanks for helping me. Which to say I'm under objective rules in structuring our thoughts and sentences!

Not objective.... only intersubjective. The rules of language, as those of morals, are only valid if people agree on them.

Ich kann meine Gedanken auch auf Deutsch ausdrücken... nach Regeln und Struktur. Und du würdest kein Wort verstehen, wenn du dich nicht in meinen subjektiven Regeln auskennst.

 

[Freodin]

How do we make sense of it all and if I followed my subjective feelings towards every aspect to or of my life I'd be in utterly and completely living in chaos! For example: If I woke up in the morning and didn't feel like going to work which is most of the time I'd be jobless and broke!

Your decision to get up and go to work is no less subjective than your decision to stay in bed and sleep in.

It is always YOUR DECISION!

 

[allhart]

I did never say that serial killers are good. But I am asking you to explain OBJECTIVELY why they are evil.

A serial killer might be insane. He might be driven to kill by his own personal views. That hurts people... so we - who might been on the receiving side - call him "evil".

But we - the good people - take such a serial killer and kill him. Are we evil?
If we make a mistake, catch the wrong person and execute him... are we evil?


Not objective.... only intersubjective. The rules of language, as those of morals, are only valid if people agree on them.

Ich kann meine Gedanken auch auf Deutsch ausdrücken... nach Regeln und Struktur. Und du würdest kein Wort verstehen, wenn du dich nicht in meinen subjektiven Regeln auskennst.

The reality of evil is knowing what is wrong and still choosing to do the wrong thing!

The Bible locates the problem of moral evil in the human heart. As the prophet Jeremiah reflected: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9

In taking moral evil seriously, the Bible affirms that we are responsible creatures. Our Creator will hold us fully accountable for our actions

 

[allhart]

Excuse me, I am trying hard to make sense of what you say. I am sure that you as well are trying your best. Perhaps it would be better to keep your sentences simple?

Let´s see if I understood you correctly.
You are asking me: "By who´s objective rule do you differate between good and evil?" (I cannot fathom how that self-regulation fits in here.)

Answer: I don´t follow any objective rules. I follow my own subjective rules, which are heavily influenced by my education, my enviroment and the situation I am in.

Second question: "Where do I get my objective rule that all should live by?"
Answer: I don´t think that there is any objective rule that all should live by.


Yes, it could have. And I personally consider that evil. You also personally consider that evil. Hitler and Goebbels and the Nazis did not personally consider that evil. That is subjectivity.

And now I´d like you to explain why that is OBJECTIVELY evil.


Outch, I am just to quick to reply, so I am missing out on some of your edits. Sorry for that.

Take a look at what you just wrote. Normal, good people don´t go to prison. (Debatable, but let´s say it is correct for now.)
What do we, normal good people, do with all these evil, insane people? We put them away! We remove them! Sometimes we (at least in the USA) kill them!

So what do you suggest, when you country or your people is threatened with hordes of evil, insane communists, capitalists, Jews or imperialists or whatever you - PERSONALLY - see as evil?
Concentrate them into camps perhaps? Execute them for crimes against state and people?

If we look through the prism of heaven and hell compared to Socialism. Heaven no one needs it and Hell everyone gets it. Money is based on productivity! THOUGHTS: so by the diversity of God's gifts to each individual how are you going to unify the people? We all are inadequate to one degree or another. Shows us our need for one another and the need of God, however, remember the first Gift God has given us all.......freedom!

 

[Freodin]

The reality of evil is knowing what is wrong and still choosing to do the wrong thing!

The Bible locates the problem of moral evil in the human heart. As the prophet Jeremiah reflected: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9

So if you don´t know what is wrong, you cannot be evil? So when Hitler, in good faith that he was doing the right thing to purge the cancer of jewish communist capitalism from the noble germanic races, gased men, women and children, he wasn´t evil?

Or do you say because YOU know that such an action is wrong, Hitler was evil?

So how do you know? Because the Bible tells you so? But again it is YOU who is left to decide which way to go: Bible or "Mein Kampf".
And how would your deceitful heart know that way?

In taking moral evil seriously, the Bible affirms that we are responsible creatures. Our Creator will hold us fully accountable for our actions

Whether he will or not: it is YOUR actions, YOUR decisions that count. YOU decide on good or evil. YOU decide whether the Bible is good or evil. YOU decide whether Hitler was. All of us are left to their own devices here... the excuse of "I was only following orders" does not count.

 

[Freodin]

The Bible locates the problem of moral evil in the human heart. As the prophet Jeremiah reflected: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9

The Bible does, in many ways, handle the age-old question of "Why can´t people just see that I am right?" and answers it with the same age-old fallacy "It must be because they are evil!"

There are only a few parts where the "Maybe the fault is with me?" doubt raises its head... and this notion gets squished quickly all of the time.

 

[allhart]

So if you don´t know what is wrong, you cannot be evil? So when Hitler, in good faith that he was doing the right thing to purge the cancer of jewish communist capitalism from the noble germanic races, gased men, women and children, he wasn´t evil?

Or do you say because YOU know that such an action is wrong, Hitler was evil?

So how do you know? Because the Bible tells you so? But again it is YOU who is left to decide which way to go: Bible or "Mein Kampf".
And how would your deceitful heart know that way?


Whether he will or not: it is YOUR actions, YOUR decisions that count. YOU decide on good or evil. YOU decide whether the Bible is good or evil. YOU decide wether Hitler was. All of us are left to their own devices here... the excuse of "I was only following orders" does not count.

It is inscribed on the hearts of men, but by following our hearts evil desires we become hardened to it! To what orientates a guilt free life or conscience? A thought: In the war of the mind over good and evil.....when ultimate utter chaos erupts who do you run to when no one is around? Who do you orientate your north star to, in ultimate complete darkness? I seek out God. God said even when it is clear to all that God is real some will still clamor their fist at Him in contempt! I wonder why that is? What makes God evil? God's not evil, we are!

 

[allhart]

The Bible does, in many ways, handle the age-old question of "Why can´t people just see that I am right?" and answers it with the same age-old fallacy "It must be because they are evil!"

There are only a few parts where the "Maybe the fault is with me?" doubt raises its head... and this notion gets squished quickly all of the time.

Does the bible have moral objective truth in it?

 

[allhart]

So if you don´t know what is wrong, you cannot be evil? So when Hitler, in good faith that he was doing the right thing to purge the cancer of jewish communist capitalism from the noble germanic races, gased men, women and children, he wasn´t evil?

Or do you say because YOU know that such an action is wrong, Hitler was evil?

So how do you know? Because the Bible tells you so? But again it is YOU who is left to decide which way to go: Bible or "Mein Kampf".
And how would your deceitful heart know that way?


Whether he will or not: it is YOUR actions, YOUR decisions that count. YOU decide on good or evil. YOU decide whether the Bible is good or evil. YOU decide whether Hitler was. All of us are left to their own devices here... the excuse of "I was only following orders" does not count.

How can we reach the insanity of evil when everything is hidden? Everyone knows right from wrong. If nothing is wrong then why don't people come out with it and share what it is that's hidden or that their hiding? For Examples: self portraits on line, sexual perversion, pride, deceitful, liars, substance abuse, murders, cheaters etc. Do I need to carry on? Why do people try to avoid responsibility? The first thing people do when it is wrong is hide it. Why did Hitler hide the concentration camps from the world? Even a child that you walk in on using a color crayons on the wall hides it behind his back. Why do children say when asked, I don't know? Adam and Eve hide in the garden from God, also hiding behind fig leaves their nakedness. They knew ultimately something was broken or wrong, our relationship with God! If everything is subjective then why do ya'll care some much by avoiding responsibility or maybe it's ya'll will be defined by sin?

 

[Freodin]

It is inscribed on the hearts of men, but by following our hearts evil desires we become hardened to it! To what orientates a guilt free life or conscience? A thought: In the war of the mind over good and evil.....when ultimate utter chaos erupts who do you run to when no one is around? Who do you orientate your north star to, in ultimate complete darkness? I seek out God. God said even when it is clear to all that God is real some will still clamor their fist at Him in contempt! I wonder why that is? What makes God evil? God's not evil, we are!

Yes, we are evil. And we are good. And nothing of both.

We are humans. We are conscious beings who like to elevate their personal ideas to cosmic truths.

And that is the danger. You seek out God... but you will find only the ideas of other humans. That alone is not a problem: human ideas are the very basis of human civilisation. But elevate them to absolute divine truths... and they can become the very evil that you try to evade.

Does the bible have moral objective truth in it?

No. There is no moral objective truth.

How can we reach the insanity of evil when everything is hidden? Everyone knows right from wrong. If nothing is wrong then why don't people come out with it and share what it is that's hidden or that their hiding? For Examples: self portraits on line, sexual perversion, pride, deceitful, liars, substance abuse, murders, cheaters etc. Do I need to carry on? Why do people try to avoid responsibility? The first thing people do when it is wrong is hide it. Why did Hitler hide the concentration camps from the world? Even a child that you walk in on using a color crayons on the wall hides it behind his back. Why do children say when asked, I don't know? Adam and Eve hide in the garden from God, also hiding behind fig leaves their nakedness. They knew ultimately something was broken or wrong, our relationship with God!

Hey, am I a prophet or what? What did I say just a post ago?

...the age-old question of "Why can´t people just see that I am right?" and answers it with the same age-old fallacy "It must be because they are evil!"

And LO! there the age-old fallacy grows a new head!

See, not everyone knows "right from wrong". People disagree in many topics on "right from wrong". But instead of indeed objectively explaining these concepts, you hide behind that old "everyone knows".

If everything is subjective then why do ya'll care some much by avoiding responsibility or maybe it's ya'll will be defined by sin?

Again and again I have said that every moral decision is always on YOU. No one else can take that responsibility from you. That is what subjectivity means: there is no one else you can blame, for good or bad.

But that is hard to accept. Many people like the easy way out. Not making decisions. Having others make the decisions and simply nod them of. Some of these people take old books and nod the old decisions of... and call them objective truth.

I know that it is really really difficult to understand within your worldview, but if you really believe that everyone knows right from wrong, then you cannot simply say that I don´t, because I disagree with you. It is rather insulting, don´t you think?

I said it twice already, and I repeat it again, because it is important. When you ask yourself "why don´t people see that I am right", the answer is not "because they are evil" or "they have a hardened heart".
Sometimes the answer might be "because I am not right". Sometimes it might be "there is no right".

 

[allhart]

Yes, we are evil. And we are good. And nothing of both.

We are humans. We are conscious beings who like to elevate their personal ideas to cosmic truths.

And that is the danger. You seek out God... but you will find only the ideas of other humans. That alone is not a problem: human ideas are the very basis of human civilisation. But elevate them to absolute divine truths... and they can become the very evil that you try to evade.


No. There is no moral objective truth.


Hey, am I a prophet or what? What did I say just a post ago?

And LO! there the age-old fallacy grows a new head!

See, not everyone knows "right from wrong". People disagree in many topics on "right from wrong". But instead of indeed objectively explaining these concepts, you hide behind that old "everyone knows".


Again and again I have said that every moral decision is always on YOU. No one else can take that responsibility from you. That is what subjectivity means: there is no one else you can blame, for good or bad.

But that is hard to accept. Many people like the easy way out. Not making decisions. Having others make the decisions and simply nod them of. Some of these people take old books and nod the old decisions of... and call them objective truth.

I know that it is really really difficult to understand within your worldview, but if you really believe that everyone knows right from wrong, then you cannot simply say that I don´t, because I disagree with you. It is rather insulting, don´t you think?

I said it twice already, and I repeat it again, because it is important. When you ask yourself "why don´t people see that I am right", the answer is not "because they are evil" or "they have a hardened heart".
Sometimes the answer might be "because I am not right". Sometimes it might be "there is no right".

There is absolute truths and by u not being able to discern moral objective truth in the Bible is perplexing and concerning to say the least. You can chose to believe anything your heart desires but it doesn't make it true. I have to leave the conversation at that until I can further study on objectivity vs. subjectivity.

 

[BrianOnEarth]

Why is there so much emphasis on the bible?

There are lots of examples of moral societies of people who have never read the bible. How does one explain this?

 

[BrianOnEarth]

I suppose there are 3 main sources of moral values:
1. Instincts we are born with. These are "given" to us by the process of natural selection.
2. Our own learning. Associating consequences with actions.
3. Inheritance through culture and education and parents.

Morality preceded the bible by at least 200,000 years. The bible is just one compendium of moral codes although it is set in an ancient context and is incoherent and has to be cherry picked and heavily interpreted. Stories, plays, TV shows, legal arguments, famous speeches, constitutions, religious texts, philosophical writings, Harry Potter. The media world is awash in tales of morality. If the bible went out of print it wouldn't make any difference.

 

[BrianOnEarth]

This conjecture I keep coming across that without the bible there would be complete anarchy and disorder is UTTER PIFFLE!!!

 

[allhart]

Brain even the real devout atheist understand that so much emphasis on meaningless makes life of reason meaningless! Comes to a full circle! My world view sets us a world apart, but only by a value system of choices! War of ideas on the subjective free will and I am God's warrior based in truth and with the helmet of Salvation on! Repent means the change of heart and mind!

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Brain even the real devout atheist understand that so much emphasis on meaningless makes life of reason meaningless! Comes to a full circle! My world view sets us a world apart, but only by a value system of choices! War of ideas on the subjective free will and I am God's warrior based in truth and with the helmet of Salvation on! Repent means the change of heart and mind!

Bolded portion by me. What is that sentence supposed to mean?

 

[allhart]

Bolded portion by me. What is that sentence supposed to mean?

Objection to objective rules makes for boundless borders even to say your structured reasoning for living!