do any of you believe tongues are necessary

ARBITER01

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Arbiter,

So which Scriptures (Bible translations) are you prepared to accept as authoritative?

You ask a self-defeating question as the topic of the ending of Mark 16 relates to textual criticism (how one decides which are the best manuscripts). Please tell me how you can do that from any Bible translation that you consider authoritative.

Regards, Oz

That's not answering my question friend.

If you are going to accept a segment of manuscripts as authoritative and others are somehow corrupt, and go about using those authoritative ones against the others, then please prove the sections you denounce as actually corrupt by scripture.

If they are additions by men, then they should be easily proven as such against scripture.
 
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OzSpen

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Arbiter,
That's not answering my question friend.

If you are going to accept a segment of manuscripts as authoritative and others are somehow corrupt, and go about using those authoritative ones against the others, then please prove the sections you denounce as actually corrupt by scripture.

If they are additions by men, then they should be easily proven as such against scripture.
What is the standard of Scripture by which you or I judge an early Greek MSS to be in or out of the Greek text of the NT? Are you using the Textus Receptus, the UBS, the Byzantine or Alexandrian texts as your judge of what is authoritative?

Oz
 
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ARBITER01

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Arbiter,

What is the standard of Scripture by which you or I judge an early Greek MSS to be in or out of the Greek text of the NT? Are you using the Textus Receptus, the UBS, the Byzantine or Alexandrian texts as your judge of what is authoritative?

Oz

My standard is the body of scripture.

If it is an addition, then the body of scripture will prove it to be such.

My question is not hard. If you are stating the ending of mark is corrupt, then use the body of scripture to prove it was by men and not The Holy Spirit.
 
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OzSpen

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My standard is the body of scripture.

If it is an addition, then the body of scripture will prove it to be such.

My question is not hard. If you are stating the ending of mark is corrupt, then use the body of scripture to prove it was by men and not The Holy Spirit.
So your standard is the body of Scripture. Is this in the KJV, NIV, ESV, etc? You are missing my point. How can you determine whether Mark 16:9-20 ought to be in the NT or not? By what standard are you judging it?

Oz
 
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ARBITER01

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So your standard is the body of Scripture. Is this in the KJV, NIV, ESV, etc? You are missing my point. How can you determine whether Mark 16:9-20 ought to be in the NT or not? By what standard are you judging it?

Oz

Again, you are refusing to answer my question and deflecting, it was very simple,..

Would you care to show us how the ending of mark is a corruption from mankind? Please use scripture.

I already answered your question, would you please be so kind as to answer mine.
 
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ARBITER01

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You have not defined what is Scripture in regard to Mark 16.

Oz

I already defined it for you, I accept all witnesses of scripture.

Are you going to answer my question or continue to make statements without proof here?
 
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OzSpen

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Arbiter,
I already defined it for you, I accept all witnesses of scripture.

Are you going to answer my question or continue to make statements without proof here?
You say that you accept "all witnesses of Scripture". Does that mean you accept Marcion's witness of the canon?

It seems that you accept Mark 16 as ending at v. 20 and that vv 9-20 are Scripture for you. Have I assumed correctly?

I could go into detail for why I don't accept this, but I consider that Kelly Iverson has summarised the material well and to my exegetical and textual satisfaction in the article, "Irony in the end: A textual and literary analysis of Mark 16:8". Iverson presents this material in footnote 6, based on the internal evidence that includes the long ending of Mark 16:
The longer ending (vv 9-20) is clearly the most attested reading. It is validated by almost all of the extant Greek manuscripts, a significant number of minuscules, numerous versions, and scores of church Fathers. Geographically it is represented by the Byzantine, Alexandrian, and Western text types. However, one should be careful not to reduce textual criticism into an exercise of manuscript counting. Though the longer ending is widely attested, the vast bulk of manuscripts are from the generally inferior, Byzantine text type dating from the 8th to the 13th centuries (except Codex A which is a 5th century document). Due to the solidarity of the Byzantine text type we may assume that this represents at least a fourth century reading (Bruce M. Metzger, The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 3rd ed. [New York: Oxford University, 1992], 293). The abrupt ending (1) is found in the two oldest Greek manuscripts. These Alexandrian uncials a B, both 4th century manuscripts, are supported by the Sinaitic Syriac manuscripts, approximately one hundred Armenian texts and two Georgian manuscripts from the 9th and 10th centuries, and several church Fathers including Clement of Alexandria and Origen. That this reading was more prominent is supported by Eusebius and Jerome who claimed that vv 9-20 were absent from almost all known manuscripts (ibid., 226). It is also significant that Codex Bobiensis (k) omits the longer ending as this is deemed the “most important witness to the Old African Latin” Bible (ibid., 73). The genealogical solidarity of the two primary Alexandrian witnesses suggest that this reading can be dated to the 2nd century (Metzger, Text of the New Testament, 215-216).

To say the least, the evidence is conflicting. One should be careful not to make a firm decision one way or the other regarding Mark’s ending based on the external data alone. Though the majority of New Testament scholars believe that vv 9-20 are not original, virtually none come to this conclusion based purely on the external evidence. Even Farmer must confess that, “while a study of the external evidence is rewarding in itself and can be very illuminating in many ways . . . it does not produce the evidential grounds for a definitive solution to the problem. A study of the history of the text, by itself, has not proven sufficient, since the evidence is divided” (Farmer, Last Twelve Verses of Mark, 74).

Most text-critics appeal to the internal evidence in order to demonstrate that vv 9-20 are non-Marcan. One is immediately struck with the awkward transition between vv 8 and 9. In v 8, the subject, “they” referring to Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome (16:1) is implicit within the third, plural verb, ejfobou`nto. But in v 9 the subject changes to “He” (from the third, singular verb ejfavnh). The transition is striking because the subject is unexpressed. Furthermore, in v 9 Mary Magdalene is introduced as though she were a new character even though her presence has already been established in the immediate context (15:47; 16:1) while Mary the mother of James and Salome disappear from the entire narrative. This awkward transition coupled with numerous words and phrases that are foreign to Mark, suggest the decidedly inauthentic nature of this ending.

Several examples should prove the point. In 16:9 we find the only occurrence of the verb faivnw in the New Testament with respect to the resurrection (though the same verb is used in Luke 9:8 to describe Elijah’s re-appearance). Equally as unusual is the construction parj h|s ejkbeblhvkei, which is a grammatical hapax. In v 10, the verb poreuvomai which is found 29 times in Matthew and 51 times in Luke is not found in Mark 1:1-16:8, but repeatedly in the longer ending (vv 10, 12, 15). In v 11, The verb qeavomai which occurs in Matthew (6:1; 11:7; 22:11; 23:5) and Luke (7:24; 23:55) finds no parallel in Mark except for its multiple occurrence in the longer ending (16:11, 14). In v 12, the expression metaV tau`ta which occurs frequently in Luke (1:24; 5:27; 10:1; 12:4; 17:8; 18:4) and John (2:12; 3:22; 5:1, 14; 6:1; 7:1; 11:7, 11; 13:7; 19:28, 38; 21:1) has no precedence in Mark. fanerovw which neither Matthew or Luke use to describe resurrection appearances is found in vv 12 and 14 (J. K. Elliott, “The Text and Language of the endings of Mark’s Gospel,” TZ 27 [1971]: 258). The phrase e{tero" morfhvis also unique to Marcan vocabulary. Neither e{tero" nor morfhv occur elsewhere in Mark and morfhv only appears in Paul’s description of the kenosis (Phil 2:6, 7). In v 14, u{stero", although used by the other evangelists, is a decidedly non-Marcan term having no precedence in 1:1-16:8. Mark seems to prefer e[scato" over u{stero" as evidenced by several parallel passages in which Mark opts for the former over the later term found in Matthew (cf. Matt 21:37–Mark 12:6; Matt 22:27–Mark 12:22). In v 18, aside from other lexical and syntactical phenomenon one is struck by the unusual exegetical hapax. No other text in Scripture provides a promise for the handling of snakes and imbibing deadly poison without adverse repercussions. In v 19, though Mark sparingly uses the conjunction ou, the phrase meVn ou is not found in 1:1-16:8. The longer ending concludes in v 20 with a litany of non-Marcan vocabulary: sunergevw is not found in Mark or the Gospels and appears to be a Pauline term (Rom 8:28; 1 Cor 16:16; 2 Cor 6:1) but it is never used with Jesus as the subject, and bebaiovwalong with ejpakolouqew are also foreign to the Synoptic Gospels.

As is somewhat evident, the internal evidence raises significant problems with Mark 16:9-20. The awkward transition between vv 8 and 9 and the non-Marcan vocabulary has led the vast majority of New Testament scholars to conclude that the longer ending is inauthentic. In fact, even Farmer (Last Twelve Verses of Mark, 103), the leading proponent for the authenticity of the last twelve verses, must confess that some of the evidence warrants this conclusion.
Iverson's article provides an overall analysis of some of the major issues in the short vs. long ending of Mark 16.

In Christ, Oz.
 
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ARBITER01

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Arbiter,

You say that you accept "all witnesses of Scripture". Does that mean you accept Marcion's witness of the canon?

It seems that you accept Mark 16 as ending at v. 20 and that vv 9-20 are Scripture for you. Have I assumed correctly?

I could go into detail for why I don't accept this, but I consider that Kelly Iverson has summarised the material well and to my exegetical and textual satisfaction in the article, "Irony in the end: A textual and literary analysis of Mark 16:8". Iverson presents this material in footnote 6, based on the internal evidence that includes the long ending of Mark 16:
Iverson's article provides an overall analysis of some of the major issues in the short vs. long ending of Mark 16.

In Christ, Oz.


All I'm asking for is a proof that it is corrupt using scripture. If it is by mankind, then the rest of scripture will prove it to be false.

I'm not asking for a greek thesis on it, just proof that it disagrees with the rest of scripture and shows it's corruptness that you claim. If it is so, then The Holy Spirit will prove it for you.
 
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ARBITER01

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Let me help you here,..

Mar 16:9 Now when he was risen early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven devils.
Mar 16:10 She went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
Mar 16:11 And they, when they heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, disbelieved.
Mar 16:12 And after these things he was manifested in another form unto two of them, as they walked, on their way into the country.
Mar 16:13 And they went away and told it unto the rest: neither believed they them.
Mar 16:14 And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven themselves as they sat at meat; and he upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.

Is there anything in any passage here that is false, that can be proven to be false by the body of scripture we have?

If so, point it out.
 
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OzSpen

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Arbiter,
All I'm asking for is a proof that it is corrupt using scripture. If it is by mankind, then the rest of scripture will prove it to be false.

I'm not asking for a greek thesis on it, just proof that it disagrees with the rest of scripture and shows it's corruptness that you claim. If it is so, then The Holy Spirit will prove it for you.
I provided you with the exegetical evidence from Mark 16 and you don't seem to like that. That is all of the evidence I will be providing. I have provided exegesis of Mark 16 to demonstrate my point of Mark 16:9-20 being an addition to the text.

Bye, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Arbiter
Let me help you here,..

Is there anything in any passage here that is false, that can be proven to be false by the body of scripture we have?

If so, point it out.
In #228 I demonstrated this.

Oz
 
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ARBITER01

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Arbiter,

I provided you with the exegetical evidence from Mark 16 and you don't seem to like that. That is all of the evidence I will be providing. I have provided exegesis of Mark 16 to demonstrate my point of Mark 16:9-20 being an addition to the text.

Bye, Oz

I'm sorry, but I'm not looking for any greek complications in the text, which was only what your provided scholar opinion said, I'm looking for you to provide where any line of 9-20 disagrees another line of scripture.

If you can't provide any disagreement with the body of scripture, then your statements against 9-20 have no basis. Just saying that it is corrupt on the basis of two manuscripts out of the rest, is quite foolish friend, when you are unable to prove it.
 
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Biblicist

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ARBITER01,


Even though I accept the ending of Mark as it has been since the earliest days, I can appreciate some of the external evidence that is used against it may appear to have some [FONT=&quot]legitimacy [/FONT] but there are four very important aspects that in my view signifies its validity:

1. As any addition (with the supposed longer ending) would have had to of occurred at least within a couple of years of the original autograph being penned by Mark, or even with the first copy down from this autograph; if it had not of been accepted by the early church then they would have simply discarded the work of the copyist.
2. If the church of the first couple of decades had of decided that it was not in line with Apostolic doctrine then it would have certainly been rejected by them.

3. As there are no theological problems contained within this ending and that it fits well with the teachings found in the Epistles then it is in harmony and why should it be removed.

4. If this passage as some try to demonstrate goes against the teachings of the Epistles and if it were in contrast to them, then I would find it hard to believe that the Father would have ensured that such words were not falsely attributed to his Son.
Even if the passage were to be removed or even ignored, we still have the wealth of information provided in the Epistles that tells us of the continued workings of the Spirit with regard to his Spiritual Manifestations. Considering this wealth of information I really do wonder why people even bother to try and demonstrate that Jesus never spoke these words.

Barry
 
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ARBITER01

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ARBITER01,


Even though I accept the ending of Mark as it has been since the earliest days, I can appreciate some of the external evidence that is used against it may appear to have some [FONT=&quot]legitimacy [/FONT] but there are four very important aspects that in my view signifies its validity:

1. As any addition (with the supposed longer ending) would have had to of occurred at least within a couple of years of the original autograph being penned by Mark, or even with the first copy down from this autograph; if it had not of been accepted by the early church then they would have simply discarded the work of the copyist.
2. If the church of the first couple of decades had of decided that it was not in line with Apostolic doctrine then it would have certainly been rejected by them.

3. As there are no theological problems contained within this ending and that it fits well with the teachings found in the Epistles then it is in harmony and why should it be removed.

4. If this passage as some try to demonstrate goes against the teachings of the Epistles and if it were in contrast to them, then I would find it hard to believe that the Father would have ensured that such words were not falsely attributed to his Son.
Even if the passage were to be removed or even ignored, we still have the wealth of information provided in the Epistles that tells us of the continued workings of the Spirit with regard to his Spiritual Manifestations. Considering this wealth of information I really do wonder why people even bother to try and demonstrate that Jesus never spoke these words.

Barry

Well rounded input there, as well as my point enunciated in #3.

Not in relation to you, but I find it somewhat amusing to see folks parroting scholars and their opinions as somehow being fact for us to live by. We are born again Christians who have been given The Spirit of truth inside of our spirit, so there is absolutely no reason why we can't take scripture and prove our case in such matters, especially in relation to theological issues.

If a person is going to use that word "corrupt" in relation to what they think a section of scripture is, then they better be able to break out their bible and make their case just like a good Christian is suppose to do, or if they can't, like in this case, then they need to back up and regroup on their thinking.

There is not a single one of us who can't be wrong at some point, and if we accept the opinions of men over The Holy Spirit's teaching, we complicate that factor 10 fold for ourselves.
 
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OzSpen

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Barry,
ARBITER01,
1. As any addition (with the supposed longer ending) would have had to of occurred at least within a couple of years of the original autograph being penned by Mark, or even with the first copy down from this autograph; if it had not of been accepted by the early church then they would have simply discarded the work of the copyist.
Barry
Where in the early church do you find evidence to support this statement?

Sincerely, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Arbiter,
I'm sorry, but I'm not looking for any greek complications in the text, which was only what your provided scholar opinion said, I'm looking for you to provide where any line of 9-20 disagrees another line of scripture.

If you can't provide any disagreement with the body of scripture, then your statements against 9-20 have no basis. Just saying that it is corrupt on the basis of two manuscripts out of the rest, is quite foolish friend, when you are unable to prove it.
The original language of the Greek NT was koine Greek. I provided some Greek exegesis to refute the long ending of Mark 16.

You are wanting me to provide evidence according to your criteria. I provided evidence based on Greek exegesis and you don't seem to like that. Would you prefer me to provide transliterations of the Greek words? Can you read the Greek words and do you know what they mean?

Sincerely, Oz
 
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ARBITER01

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Friend, if you can't prove that it is a lie by scripture, than it is not, case closed.

If it doesn't disagree with the rest of scripture, than how is it corrupt? If you are unable to use scripture to compare it with, just say so.
 
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patience7

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ARBITER01,


Even though I accept the ending of Mark as it has been since the earliest days, I can appreciate some of the external evidence that is used against it may appear to have some [FONT=&quot]legitimacy [/FONT]but there are four very important aspects that in my view signifies its validity:

1. As any addition (with the supposed longer ending) would have had to of occurred at least within a couple of years of the original autograph being penned by Mark, or even with the first copy down from this autograph; if it had not of been accepted by the early church then they would have simply discarded the work of the copyist.
2. If the church of the first couple of decades had of decided that it was not in line with Apostolic doctrine then it would have certainly been rejected by them.

3. As there are no theological problems contained within this ending and that it fits well with the teachings found in the Epistles then it is in harmony and why should it be removed.

4. If this passage as some try to demonstrate goes against the teachings of the Epistles and if it were in contrast to them, then I would find it hard to believe that the Father would have ensured that such words were not falsely attributed to his Son.
Even if the passage were to be removed or even ignored, we still have the wealth of information provided in the Epistles that tells us of the continued workings of the Spirit with regard to his Spiritual Manifestations. Considering this wealth of information I really do wonder why people even bother to try and demonstrate that Jesus never spoke these words.

Barry

My two cents worth!!!

I agree with your above post. In a quick look, we can see just in Acts verses that harmonize with Mark 16:17-20.

Speaking in tongues (of course Pentecost) Acts 2 and also when the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues Acts 10:44-46.

Signs, wonders, & healings Acts 3:2-7 Acts 19:11,12

"take up serpents" (in the context of "if", this is not speaking of snake handlers) Acts 28:3-6 when Paul had accidently picked up a "viper" with a bundle of sticks for a fire.

This was just put together quick and I am sure there are plenty of other verses that harmonize with the last section of Mark.
 
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JEBrady

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Arbiter,

The original language of the Greek NT was koine Greek. I provided some Greek exegesis to refute the long ending of Mark 16.

You are wanting me to provide evidence according to your criteria. I provided evidence based on Greek exegesis and you don't seem to like that. Would you prefer me to provide transliterations of the Greek words? Can you read the Greek words and do you know what they mean?

Sincerely, Oz

What you presented may have been Greek exegesis, but it wasn't typically biblical exegesis. What you posted related to archaeological findings and differences in literary style. Exegesis relates to interpretive aspects.

What some would like to hear you state is whether you take issue with anything in the long ending based on disharmony with other scripture- e.g. does it teach anything contrary to scripture, does it contradict anything else in the body of scripture that would cause it to be suspect? While issues of Gk linguistics and archaology have some value, certainly, they don't carry anywhere near the weight of doctrinal harmony, I would think. So, just wondering- do you see anything in the long ending that you would object to based on disharmony with scripture?
 
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