Do American Baptist Churches believe in once saved always saved?

[Ave Maria]

Hi everyone. Does the denomination of the American Baptists believe in once saved always saved or not? Thanks!

 

[nzguy]

Well I got to a church that is affiliated with the American Baptist Association, so I may be able to cast some light there.

They definitely do believe in once saved always saved! In fact, they no only believe that God won't leave you, but you can't leave God either, seeing as you don't own your salvation, and God has promised to never leave you.

Salvation is simple this: asking Jesus to come into your life to forgive your sin and give you eternal life.

That is it

church membership, baptism, bible reading etc.. all come after this point (altho you could have read the bible before salvation, and been a visitor at a church )

salvation and service are seperate things.. they aren't mixed into eachother.. salvation is a free gift, not by works, can in no way be lossed thru Christ's commitment to us.. service is anything we do after salvation to serve God.. daily salvation. We don't HAVE to do anything after salvation.. there are no strings.

American Baptist Association teaching also rejects calvinism and arminianism.

The other thing is.. you won't find the ABA calling themselves are denomination.. since they don't believe in a universal church.. either invisible or visible.. they believe church always to be a local assembly or congregation of saved baptised believers, with Jesus as the Head of each independent church.

So there you go

from

NZguy

(I don't know if the ABA is the same as what is listed in the forum under American Baptists)

 

[Ave Maria]

Well I got to a church that is affiliated with the American Baptist Association, so I may be able to cast some light there.

They definitely do believe in once saved always saved! In fact, they no only believe that God won't leave you, but you can't leave God either, seeing as you don't own your salvation, and God has promised to never leave you.

Salvation is simple this: asking Jesus to come into your life to forgive your sin and give you eternal life.

That is it

church membership, baptism, bible reading etc.. all come after this point (altho you could have read the bible before salvation, and been a visitor at a church )

salvation and service are seperate things.. they aren't mixed into eachother.. salvation is a free gift, not by works, can in no way be lossed thru Christ's commitment to us.. service is anything we do after salvation to serve God.. daily salvation. We don't HAVE to do anything after salvation.. there are no strings.

American Baptist Association teaching also rejects calvinism and arminianism.

The other thing is.. you won't find the ABA calling themselves are denomination.. since they don't believe in a universal church.. either invisible or visible.. they believe church always to be a local assembly or congregation of saved baptised believers, with Jesus as the Head of each independent church.

So there you go

from

NZguy

(I don't know if the ABA is the same as what is listed in the forum under American Baptists)

Interesting. It sounds like they have similar beliefs to the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church that I go to. However, I do disagree with them ordaining women (I read that they ordain women somewhere online) so I'll stick with my Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church.

 

[MrJim]

I've been going to an ABC for several years and most do but not all~it's not an official teaching in our particular congregation though I know the pastor believes and teaches it.

Every ABC congregation is different~there is not an official creed/SOF handed down from on high~and there are some very very liberal congregations within the ABC; ours is more conservative by far.

 

[th1bill]

I can't answer for every church family in the SBC or the MBA (Missioary Baptist) but the MBA Church I was baptized in and the SBC Church I am a member of do not and will not ordain women to the pulpit.

 

[MrJim]

ABC ordains women

 

[nzguy]

Well I know of very few churches in teh ABA that ordain women. I think ABC and ABA are different strands but share alot of the same teaching..

ABA churches are all independent fundamentalist baptists.. in them are missionary baptist churches.. primitive baptists (I think).. independent baptists..

but they have all chosen to unite on a said statement of faith..

church always local visible- congregation or assembly

salvation can in no way be lossed

spiritual gifts of faith hope and love remain.. the rest were used to establish scripture.. now scripture is complete we put away those tools.

but that is the ABA.. which I think is different to the American Baptists described in the forum

 

[MrJim]

but that is the ABA.. which I think is different to the American Baptists described in the forum

http://www.abc-usa.org/

ABCUSA Mission Statement
(Approved by ABCUSA General Board, June 2005)

"American Baptists are a Christ-centered, biblically grounded, ethnically diverse people called to radical personal discipleship in Christ Jesus. Our commitment to Jesus propels us to nurture authentic relationships with one another; build healthy churches; transform our communities, our nations, and our world; engage every member in hands-on ministry; and speak the prophetic word in love.

"As a people of prayer, purpose, and passion, we are in the forefront of creating a community of faith where people of every race, nationality, and culture gather as one in worship, service, and work.

"The heart of the gospel is God's redemptive love. In our life together, the world will see the power of forgiveness to overcome alienation, the strength of love to transform hate, the power of grace to break the bonds of guilt, the triumph of hope over despair, and the victory of faith over doubt.

"Through the cross of Christ we embrace the world as neighbor. Our vision for mission energizes a multitude of servant ministries of evangelism, discipleship, leadership, new church development, social justice, healing, peacemaking, economic development, and education. Empowered by the Holy Spirit, we work together in mutual trust, humility, love, and giving that the gospel might be preached and lived in all the world."

They use the word redemptive but won't use the word sin in the statement, anyhow like I said every congregation is autonomous.

BTW the famous missionary Adoniram Judson was American Baptist...wonder what he'd think about it today...

 

[ImmersionX]

It's very interesting at all of the different baptist groups. One of the main distinctives of the Baptist faith is that the local autonomy of the church is a necessity. I agree....my church is an SBC church...but for what reason I still don't know...we 100% fund our own missionaries around the world.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Hi everyone. Does the denomination of the American Baptists believe in once saved always saved or not? Thanks!

Within the congregation of any large Baptist church one will find people who believe in once saved, always saved, and other people who believe in the historical teaching of conditional security. Considering that the teaching of once saved, always saved was not the consequence of refinements in New Testament exegesis but rather a bi-product of an incorrect 16th century teaching regarding the sovereignty of God, and that for the first 1500 years of the church the concept of once saved, always saved did not yet exist, it is no wonder that many Baptists of all the denominations prefer the historical and Biblical doctrine of conditional security.

What about all those passages in the Bible that teach once saved, always saved? There are none when these passages are carefully read in the Greek New Testament and the same principles of New Testament interpretation and linguistic analysis are applied to the ‘once saved, always saved’ passages as are applied to the rest of the New Testament. The Early Church Fathers whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon were not a bunch of illiterate dummies—they were very bright and well educated Christians who understood the New Testament to teach that our salvation is dependent upon our continued faith in Christ and our continued obedience to Him.

Although the doctrine of conditional security is still the view of the large majority of Christian ministers and laypeople, most church goers today want to hear a positive gospel and they don’t want to think about the possibility of spending eternity in hell and therefore the message preached on television and in almost all of the mega-churches is ‘God loves you, you love Jesus, so everything if fine.’ I don’t believe that pastors should preach hell, fire and brimstone every Sunday, but neither do I believe that they should so heavily sugarcoat the gospel that it becomes a false gospel giving the believers in it a false sense of security.

PaladinGirl, I salute you for your honesty with yourself and your desire to learn the truth. Some people in this forum have told you what to believe and to stick to what you believe, but I know that that can be exceedingly dangerous. What all of us should do is diligently study the Bible for ourselves while honestly and earnestly praying everyday for God to teach us His truths and to protect us from error. As you grow in your faith and your relationship with God you will probably learn that some of your earlier beliefs were not as well founded as you had thought and that they need to be revised in accord with the further understanding that God is giving to you. No Baptist denomination and no Baptist teacher has all the truth and all the right answers. However, the Bible does. May God richly bless you and minister to all of your needs.

 

[nzguy]

wait a second.. churches that believe Jesus is God.. and salvation is unconditionally secure have been around since Jesus formed His church with the disciples!

There have always been Christian churches seperate from Catholicism right from the start who believed in the soverienty of Christ..

The only reason you don't see alot about them.. is because their records have been mostly, and intentionaly destroyed by Catholic and Protestant churches!

 

[DeaconDean]

Let me say this, traditionally, American Baptist churches have been Calvinistic. Leastwise up until the war of Northern agression. P)) Up until 1858, most Baptist churches in America held to this idea. Then the disgreements began.

As there are many different classifications of Baptists, there are many different variations on the OSAS theory.

Traditional Calvinistic Baptist churches believe this.

Traditional Arminain Baptist churches disagree.

Independant Baptist churches are split on this.

So expect a wide variety of answers.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

wait a second.. churches that believe Jesus is God.. and salvation is unconditionally secure have been around since Jesus formed His church with the disciples!

There have always been Christian churches seperate from Catholicism right from the start who believed in the soverienty of Christ..

The only reason you don't see alot about them.. is because their records have been mostly, and intentionaly destroyed by Catholic and Protestant churches!

Yes, there have been from the beginning churches that correctly believed that Christ is God and that correctly taught what the Scriptures teach about the sovereignty of God—but not the erroneous beliefs about the sovereignty of God that we find for the first time in the 16th century, and not the doctrine of eternal security. Indeed, if any early church had taught these things, we would certainly know about it because we would find numerous writings rebuking them for their false teaching, and we have no such writings. The doctrine of conditional security was the universal teaching of the Church till the 16the century. Let’s just take the history of the interpretation of the New Testament at face value and not argue the matter in this thread.

 

[DeaconDean]

I believe it is written by Clement of Rome in AD 69:

Clement of Rome gives plain hints of the firmness of true faith, and the perseverance of the saints in it to the end. When addressing the members of the church at Corinth, he says? “Who has dwelt among you, that has not had an experience of, or proved, ten panareton kai bebaian umon pistin, your all-powerful, and firm or stable faith?” He also observes,that “whereas it is the will of God, that all whom he loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent, esterizen to pantokratoriko boulemati autou, ‘he has established it by his almighty will.’ But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is his almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of his?”

http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part 4/chapter5/chap05_section01.htm

And I believe it was Ignatius in AD 110 who said:

Ignatius also is a witness to this most comfortable truth of the gospel, when he exhorts the saints to “avoid those evil excrescences which bring forth deadly fruit, of which whoever tastes dies; for they are not the Father’s planting;” for if they “were, the branches of the cross would appear, kai en auto karpos autos aphthartos, ‘and their fruit would be incorruptible;’ whereby through his sufferings he hath called you, being his members, ou dunatai ouk kophale choris gennethenai aneu melon, for the head cannot be born, or be, without the members.” And in another place he says, “No man professing faith, sins; nor having obtained love, hates. The tree is known by its fruit. So they that profess to be Christians shall be seen by what they do; for now it is not the business of a profession, all’ en dunamei pisteos ean tis eurethe eis telos, but it is through the power of faith, if any one is found to the end.” By which he intimates, that such is the strength and virtue of true faith, that such who have it are preserved and continued Christians to the end, and are then found to be so. His epistle to the Philadelphians is directed to them as a church firmly settled in the harmony of God, as being an everlasting and permanent joy; and their bishops, elders, and deacons, such whom Christ, according to his own will, esterixen en bebaiosune, “had firmly established, through his Holy Spirit.”

Ibid.

And I believe it was Irenaeus who in AD 180 said:

Irenaeus has several passages in his writings which favor this doctrine. Allegorizing the history of Lot’s wife, he thus expresses himself: “The church which is the salt of the earth, is left in the confines of the of the earth, suffering the things which are human; and whilst whole members are often taken away from it, perseverat statua salis qued est firmamentum fidei, firmans et praemittens filios ad Patrem ipsorum, ‘ the pillar of salt continues, which is the firmament of faith, confirming and sending before the children to their Father.” He speaks of the grace of love as an abiding one: “Love,” says he, “perfects the perfect man; and he that loves God is perfect both in this world, and in that which is to come; nunquam enim desivimus diligentus Deum, for we never cease loving God, but the more we look upon him, the more we love him.” He also represents the Spirit of God as never leaving the man he has taken up his residence in; for, he says, “The breath of life is one thing, which makes the man animal, and another the quickening Spirit, which makes him spiritual. That which is made is different from him that makes it, wherefore the breath is temporal, to de Pneuma aennaon, the Spirit eternal.” The breath indeed is vigorous for a little while, and remains some time, after which it goes away, leaving it breathless where it was before; but the Spirit encompasses man within and without, ate aei paramonimon oudepote kataleipei auton, as always abiding, and never leaves him.” Yea, he represents it as blasphemy to say, that the members of Christ shall not be saved, but destroyed; for he makes this observation on 1 Corinthians 3:17, If any one defile the temple of God, etc.: Templum igitur Dei in quo Spiritus inhabitat Patris, et membra Christi non participare salutem, sed in perditionem redigi dicere, quomodo non maximae est blasphemiae? Therefore to say, that the temple of God, in which the Spirit of the Father dwells, and the members of Christ, shall not partake of salvation, but be brought down to destruction, is it not the highest blasphemy? Vossius refers to a chapter in Irenaeus, as militating against the doctrine of the saints’ final perseverance, in which are these expressions: “All are of the same nature, and able to retain and do good, and able to lose it again, and not do it.” And a little after, “Disobedience to God, and loss of good, are indeed in the power of man.” But it should be known and observed, that Irenaeus is disputing against those heretics who held, that some men were by nature good, and others evil; whereas, he says, they are all of the same nature, as at first created by God, capable of doing good and evil. Besides, he speaks only of the loss of natural and moral good in the natural man, and not of the loss of spiritual good, or of supernatural grace in the regenerate man. Moreover, Irenaeus has a passage in the very same chapter which seems to favor the saints’ perseverance; for he says, that “the Lord bore all these things for us, that by all things being learned in all, we might be cautious for the future, et perseveremus in omni ejus dilectione, and persevere in all love to him.”

Ibid.

I see a lot of the ECF's teaching this.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[holyrokker]

Leastwise up until the war of Northern agression. P))

I see why you are also called "The Resident Trouble Maker"

 

[DeaconDean]

I see why you are also called "The Resident Trouble Maker"

Sometimes I just can't help myself.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[nzguy]

well.. the opening thread to this is what American Baptists believe..

and I know for a fact the American Baptist Association.. (seeing as my church is affiliated with it, and I have been on their website) believe in once saved, always saved.

And the reason they believe it, is because of scripture.. verses like.. 'being justified by teh faith of Christ'

Ephesians 2, vs 8-9

Romans 8 vs 37-39

Hebrews chapter 6

The verse in James: faith without works is dead.. is not about salvation.. but daily service

the word save in the bible has different meanings .. it can mean justification for salvation through Christ's commitment to us when we ask for forgiveness of sins.. or it can mean being rescued from trouble. This is where 'he who endures to the end will be saved' comes in.. as when you read the context it is about being rescued or delivered from trouble, not about salvation.

There is also Romans chapter 10. .. that goes through the process for salvation..

(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

that is pretty clear - no works in there.. no combination of service and salvation.

(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

this is clear!

then you have 1 Cor 3:11-15 describing how someone who hasn't built on their salvation still goes to heaven

and these verses:


Ephesians 1:13b-14 in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

it goes on and on...


finally.... Calvinism and Arminianism are both doctrines out of the reformation.. there are independent baptist churches that reject both doctrines.. that were never part of either Protestants or Catholics

so you know..... the bible interprets itself.. and I believe (as do ALOT of other Christians.. that salvation is a free gift.. not by works that can in no way be lossed.. gained by asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins and give you eternal life.

this is the ABA position.. which is what the opening thread is related to

 

[nzguy]

and the other thing.... how about quoting from Paul.. or David.. or Jesus, rather than commentaries on these people's writings?

The Catholic church definitely didn't believe in once saved always saved.. the church at Corinth had paganism influences and had trouble with unity because it was so huge.. probably leading to one of the main drives in establishing Catholicism.

Early church fathers don't start with the Catholic heirachy.. they start with Jesus.. Paul.. Peter.. Matthew.. Mark.. Luke.. John.. Titus.. Timothy.. etc..

anyhoo.. I'm all heated up over this one.. because once saved always saved is central to the belief that Jesus is God.

 

[DeaconDean]

and the other thing.... how about quoting from Paul.. or David.. or Jesus, rather than commentaries on these people's writings?

The Catholic church definitely didn't believe in once saved always saved.. the church at Corinth had paganism influences and had trouble with unity because it was so huge.. probably leading to one of the main drives in establishing Catholicism.

Early church fathers don't start with the Catholic heirachy.. they start with Jesus.. Paul.. Peter.. Matthew.. Mark.. Luke.. John.. Titus.. Timothy.. etc..

anyhoo.. I'm all heated up over this one.. because once saved always saved is central to the belief that Jesus is God.

For your information, Clement of Rome may very well have been the one of whom Paul speaks of here:

"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life." -Phil. 4:3 (KJV)

It is a common held belief that Clement was a disciple of Paul.

Did not Clement hold a position in the early church?

And Barnabus is mentioned how many times?

And yet Barnabus said in AD 70:

"Barnabas, an apostolic man, bears testimony to the doctrine of the saints’ final perseverance: when he says, that “he that hopes in Christ, sterean petran, ‘the firm and solid rock,’ shall live for ever;” which he afterwards repeats in answer to a question, why the wool and the wood were used in the legal ceremonies: “Because,” says he, the kingdom of Jesus depends upon the tree (he means the cross,) wherefore they that hope in him shall live for ever.” And in another place, he cites the following words as a passage of Scripture, And there was a river drawing, or running, on the right hand, and out of it sprung up beautiful trees, and whosoever eats of them shall live for ever; upon which he observes, that “this he says because we go down into the water (meaning in baptism) full of sins and filth, and we come up out of it bringing forth fruit; having in the heart fear and hope in Jesus through the Spirit, ‘and whosoever eats of these shall live for ever;’ this he says, that whosoever hears the things that are said, kai pisteuse, and believes, shall live for ever.”

My whole point here is to show that up until AD 390, the Final Perseverance of the Saints was indeed taught and believed. And in each and every one of the ECF's quoted, they all believed that those who were saved, were always saved!

And how about this one:

1. Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by the Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit to immortality)1 and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon: notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded, and obscured from them,2 yet it is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of His hands, and their names having been written in the book of Life from all eternity.3
   
2. This perseverance of the saints, depends not upon their own free will but upon the immutability of the decree of election,4 flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with Him,5 the oath of God,6 the abiding of His Spirit, and the seed of God wthin them,7 and the nature of the covenant of grace;8 from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
   
3. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan, and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein;9 whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit,10 come to have their graces and comforts impaired,11 have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded,12 hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves,13 yet shall they renew their repentance, and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus, to the end.14

Footnotes:

1. Jn 10:28-29; Php 1:6; 2Ti 2:19; 1Jn 2:19.
2. Ps 89:31-32; 1Co 11:32.
3. Mal 3:6.
4. Ro 8:30; 9:11,16.
5. Ro 5:9-10; Jn 14:19.
6. Heb 6:17-18.
7. 1Jn 3:9.
8. Jer 32:40.
9. Mt 26:70,72,74.
10. Isa 64:5,9; Eph 4:30.
11. Ps 51:10,12.
12. Ps 32:3-4.
13. 2Sa 12:14.
14. Lk 22:32,61-62. ​

The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742. Chapter 17, Of The Perseverance Of The Saints

Any objections on that one? This early American Baptist church association believed it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

anyhoo.. I'm all heated up over this one.. because once saved always saved is central to the belief that Jesus is God.

So the Roman Catholic Church, the many branches of Orthodox Churches, The Anglican and Episcopal churches, many Baptist churches, the Lutheran churches, the Methodist churches, the Assemblies of God and a host of other Pentecostal churches, the Church of the Nazarene and many other churches that teach as did the Apostles John and Peter and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews that the Christian’s salvation is conditional upon his or her continued belief in and continued obedience to Christ do not believe that Jesus is God?

The two beliefs are entirely separate and independent of one another.