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Do all Members of the Trinity know all things?
- Thread starter Fat
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For awhile while Christ was here on earth, he gave up complete union with the Father and the Spirit so he could take on human nature, which of course doesn't know everything. Humans don't have the capacity to understand and be in perfect union with God.
But now that he has ascended into heaven again, Christ is perfectly and completely intertwined with the Father and the Spirit again.
But now that he has ascended into heaven again, Christ is perfectly and completely intertwined with the Father and the Spirit again.
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lambslove said:
Ahhh but we know He existed from the beginning even before the earth was formed. So was He ever aware of all things before He took human form? When the woman came to the well He knew all about her past and He knew the future of other men. He knew who would betray Him and who would deny Him.
I just wonder if this one secret was kept from Him from the beginning.
By the way lambslove I agree with you but as you so well put it, "Humans don't have the capacity to understand...."
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Fat said:Ahhh but we know He existed from the beginning even before the earth was formed. So was He ever aware of all things before He took human form? When the woman came to the well He knew all about her past and He knew the future of other men. He knew who would betray Him and who would deny Him.
I just wonder if this one secret was kept from Him from the beginning.
By the way lambslove I agree with you but as you so well put it, "Humans don't have the capacity to understand...."
I don't think God's persons can keep secrets from each other. He might have given up this knowledge so he could honestly say he didn't know when the end would be if he was pressed for an answer (which he was). If he had told them the truth, that it would be thousands of years off, they might have just figured that since they wouldn't be alive to see it, they didn't have to live right or be preparing themselves and their society for the day it would come. In other words, if you know that something isn't going to happen in your lifetime, you don't give it any thought.
For instance, if I said that scientists say that sometime in the next 600 years, the earth's magnetic poles are going to be reversed and that will throw off all navigation systems and ships will get lost at sea and planes will get lost in the sky, you'd think, well, six hundred years, that really doesn't have anything to do with me, I'm not going to work toward a solution for this problem because there is plenty of time and it doesn't really affect me at all anyway. Or like in 1990 when computer scientists started getting all uptight about Y2K, everyone thought, that's ten years off, someone will come up with something by then.
If Christ had said, I'm coming back in the year so-and-so, only those people within spitting distance of that year would care at all.
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mesue
Love all, trust a few. Do wrong to none.
Yes, the 3 are 1.Fat said:
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The Spirit gives us wisdom and knowledge.
1Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
The angels and man are created beings. The trinity is one.
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Fat said:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (Jn 1:1-2).
Yes. As the Word, he was (is) omniscient. However like LL said, he humbled himself:
"Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:7-8).
Jesus, because he was fully human, had to grow in human wisdom:
"And Jesus advanced (in) wisdom and age and favor before God and man" (Lk 2:52).
He did - because he was God.
All that the Father knows, so too does the Son and the Spirit. They are of one mind and one will. They are divine persons, but that does not mean personality (strict autonomy) in the modern sense.
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lambslove said:I don't think God's persons can keep secrets from each other. He might have given up this knowledge so he could honestly say he didn't know when the end would be if he was pressed for an answer (which he was). If he had told them the truth, that it would be thousands of years off, they might have just figured that since they wouldn't be alive to see it, they didn't have to live right or be preparing themselves and their society for the day it would come. In other words, if you know that something isn't going to happen in your lifetime, you don't give it any thought.
For instance, if I said that scientists say that sometime in the next 600 years, the earth's magnetic poles are going to be reversed and that will throw off all navigation systems and ships will get lost at sea and planes will get lost in the sky, you'd think, well, six hundred years, that really doesn't have anything to do with me, I'm not going to work toward a solution for this problem because there is plenty of time and it doesn't really affect me at all anyway. Or like in 1990 when computer scientists started getting all uptight about Y2K, everyone thought, that's ten years off, someone will come up with something by then.
If Christ had said, I'm coming back in the year so-and-so, only those people within spitting distance of that year would care at all.
Yeah John Wesley pretty much agrees with you.
John Wesley's Explanatory Notes said:
You're right if the date was known we would make a mess of it.
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mesue said:
Maybe just this one bit of information was kept from Him mesue.
The New American Standard Bible
24:36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
The Holman Christian Standard Bible
24:36"Now concerning that day and hour no one knows--neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son --except the Father only.
Webster's Bible Translation
24:36But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament said:
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Carrye said:
There are some things that I know I will never understand. Time and the Trinity are the two that fall under "T".
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Fat said:
You are a wise, wise man.
Anyone who claims to "know" (as in all-encompassing) the Trinity is lying. We can know God in many ways, but we cannot exhaustively do so. Respecting the great Mystery of God is at the heart of any faith and theology.
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Interesting question and interesting discussion. However, we seem to have forgotten that we do not worship three separate Gods, but rather one God who is without limits except as He chooses to limit Himself. One way He has chosen to limit Himself is through His covenants with mankind. Since He is faithful and just and keeps His promises, God has limited His option of breaking the covenant or acting in a deceptive way.
Another way He chose to limit Himself is by providing for our redemption and salvation. In order to provide the perfect sacrifice, God became flesh, dwelled among us, ministered to us and ultimately died on the cross as the perfect lamb of God. In other words, when God became man, in His human form He gave up certain attributes of His diety, including knowing all things.
The Bible doesn't fully tell us all that me might like to know regarding the person of God after Jesus ascended back to Heaven--so I suppose we can continue discussing what we think, though that won't mean we have it all worked out the same as the way God has done it.....
Another way He chose to limit Himself is by providing for our redemption and salvation. In order to provide the perfect sacrifice, God became flesh, dwelled among us, ministered to us and ultimately died on the cross as the perfect lamb of God. In other words, when God became man, in His human form He gave up certain attributes of His diety, including knowing all things.
The Bible doesn't fully tell us all that me might like to know regarding the person of God after Jesus ascended back to Heaven--so I suppose we can continue discussing what we think, though that won't mean we have it all worked out the same as the way God has done it.....
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mesue
Love all, trust a few. Do wrong to none.
No. I'm not convinced.Fat said:
Angels and man were created by God, the Holy Spirit is God. You need more than one verse to convince me otherwise.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
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mesue said:
I'm not trying to convince you my friend. I believe that the Bible has no errors, the only errors come from us not understanding.
We know:
1) The Father, Son and Holy spirit are one.
2) The Father gives gifts to the Son.
3) The Son worships the Father.
4) The Son baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
5) That Matthew 24:36 is without error.
Fat
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mesue
Love all, trust a few. Do wrong to none.
Fat said:I'm not trying to convince you my friend. I believe that the Bible has no errors, the only errors come from us not understanding.
We know:
1) The Father, Son and Holy spirit are one.
2) The Father gives gifts to the Son.
3) The Son worships the Father.
4) The Son baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
5) That Matthew 24:36 is without error.
Fat
The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one, not just the Father and Spirit. The Son worshiped the Father because He was fully human and fully God on this earth. But Jesus was with God from the beginning. Matthew 24:36 is without error. Created beings do not know when, nor will they.
It does not say "I don't know."
It says knoweth no man, not the angels of heaven.
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Sorry, I should be more careful.It really was a question, not an accusation. I didn't know whether Jesus was ever in worship to the Father or not. I thought if he was it would open up a whole new set of things to think about for me.
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lambslove said:It really was a question, not an accusation. I didn't know whether Jesus was ever in worship to the Father or not. I thought if he was it would open up a whole new set of things to think about for me.
Matthew 4 : 9 And he said to Him, "I will give You all these things if You will fall down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus told him, "Go away, Satan! For it is written: You must worship the Lord your God, and you must serve Him only."
Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, He fell on His face, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will."
42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, Your will be done."
44 After leaving them, He went away again and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.
Fat
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mesue said:
KJV is only one translation of the scriptures.
The New American Standard Bible
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
KJV
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
KJV
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
If you're stuck on KJV try this:
KJV said:
That should to put this part to rest. Sorry mesue that I didn't pick Mark from the getgo but I use NAS and it was not a question that I for saw. I should have check the other translations before I posted. But Mark is also without error.
Fat
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