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ViaCrucis

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A few random thoughts:

One of the hardest questions I think is how we even conceptualize the idea of life. Does our current definition of life have universal applicability, or does it really only apply to life on earth? Could there be life out there that doesn't necessarily meet our current standards?

But that calls into question a lot of other things. Can there be artificial life? Could a machine ever be alive? If we were to construct a true AI, would it be alive?

These sorts of questions also start to push the boundaries of philosophy and ethics.

As a lover of science fiction and the sort of nerd that engages in world-building as a hobby, I find exploring these thoughts fun and interesting.

Scientifically the question is really difficult. Our only sample of life is earth life, and so anything beyond the observations of life here on earth involves a lot of speculation and conjecture.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Anguspure

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The accounts of UFO sightings often display sudden appearances (whether seemingly out of thin air or out of apparently out of the ground), sudden high speed changes in direction (massless)?, and no apparent propulsive system that does not disturb the surrounding atmosphere.
Further, as I have pointed out, the physical distances involved in space travel are prohibitive. all of this put together should make one wonder whether the sightings are hyper spatial in nature.
The only negator I have encountered against these reasonable proposals is the materialist insistence that we must apriori deny any possible explanation that invokes life in hyperspace.
 
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Ophiolite

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And these accounts are based upon eye witness testimony. I don't trust eyewitness testimony from myself. Do you think I shall give the time of day to eye witness testimony to members of the general public? Eye witness testimony is notoriously defective and unreliable. Thousands of such reports are sighting of Venus! That typifies the incompetence of most people (myself included) to give an accurate, reliable account of what they have seen outside of a controlled environment.

Further, as I have pointed out, the physical distances involved in space travel are prohibitive.
Wow! I've already dismissed your objections to the physical distances involved. Your response is just to repeat the claim as though it hadn't been dismissed. I expected more intellectual rigour from you.

all of this put together should make one wonder whether the sightings are hyper spatial in nature.
So, we put together practically worthless, frequently refuted, evidence-light eye- witness testimony with a claim that is dismissed with four bullet points and what do we have? Nothing to write home about.

The only negator I have encountered against these reasonable proposals is the materialist insistence that we must apriori deny any possible explanation that invokes life in hyperspace.
I have no objection at all to considering any alternative explanations. All I ask is that some form of justification is offered other than the traditional, "since pink unicorns in the seventh dimension might exist, then we should consider the possibility of pink unicorns in the seventh dimension."

I apologise if I am coming across as aggressive. I was aiming for vigorous and rigorous. Your argument is weak and insisting upon your conclusion given the almost non-existent foundation seems fatuous. I think that needs to be challenged, if only to give you the opportunity to formulate something a little more convincing.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Hyperspace, or maybe the Twilight Zone, or the Phantom Zone?

It would seem prudent to wait for some evidence that 'hyperspace' is more than the science-fiction McGuffin it was originally devised as, before speculating that it could support advanced intelligent life that appears to us as UFOs...
 
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Anguspure

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I think there is more than enough evidence that there are things going on beyond physical space and time, for example studies of the origin of the human mind, language and rationality itself point very strongly to this.
I am wholly sceptical of the materialist claim, which in science is only methodological, and should not be ideological.
As such, while it may be prudent to avoid metaphysical explanations when investigating something scientifically,
for the sake of the scientific method, when we are considering truth and reality the prudent thing is to consider that because of its methodology science is likely to be severely limited in its assesment of what is really going on.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I think there is more than enough evidence that there are things going on beyond physical space and time, for example studies of the origin of the human mind, language and rationality itself point very strongly to this.
In what way do such studies point to 'things going on beyond physical space and time'?

...for the sake of the scientific method, when we are considering truth and reality the prudent thing is to consider that because of its methodology science is likely to be severely limited in its assesment of what is really going on.
Sure, but that doesn't mean we can treat any old science fiction tosh as a plausibly real. That science is limited doesn't mean anything goes.
 
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Anguspure

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In what way do such studies point to 'things going on beyond physical space and time'?

"I cannot conceive of chimpanzees developing emotions, one for the other, comparable in any way to the tenderness, the protectiveness, tolerance, and spiritual exhilaration that are the hallmarks of human love in its truest and deepest sense."

Jane Goodall said that.

I think it is safe to say that we are much more than our brains. Our brains enable us to interact with our bodies, and through them the physical world. In some sense they mediate between us and the world. When the brain is injured or disturbed, so is our perception and interaction with the world. But our brains are capable of rational thought. Otherwise we would never have sent anyone to the moon.
Consider what it means to think, to reason. The materialist view says thought is an epiphenomenon and what we think is the product of material processes in the brain, processes that are biochemically and genetically determined. Free will and rationality are an illusion. But why believe in reasoned thought if your every thought is foreordained by chemical interactions and responses to stimuli? If an atheist tells you we are nothing but meat machines with no souls or free will, ask him on what basis he thinks he can say that. If his every thought is determined, not free, then there is no reason to think he has arrived at his viewpoint rationally. There is no reason to think he thinks.

Here are some more reasons to think we are more than our brains, that we exist both as individuals in some sense at one with our brains, but also in another sense independent of our brains. We can train our brains to rewire themselves. People with obsessive-compulsive disorder can be taught to think differently, and it makes an actual difference in the physical wiring of the brain. Also people can be missing a large part of their brains and still function normally!

With our brains we write music, dance the ballet, paint landscapes, play chess, and do theoretical physics. We send men to the moon and then bring them back. We contemplate our origin, what and who we are, and give thanks. Non-human primates don’t do these things. Furthermore, these abilities far exceed what is needed for survival, and at least in the case of theoretical physics and traveling to the moon, are not useful for finding true love. The verdict on chess is still out.
Extract from: Ann Gauger
https://evolutionnews.org/2018/09/beyond-adapation-the-human-brain-is-something-new/
 
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durangodawood

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I know that old Arthur C Clark line.... It doesn't explain why UFOnauts can break every rule of physics this puts them out of the realm of a physical being. They are not simply extra terrestrials with advanced tech.
I dont see why mastery of currently unknown physics should be considered a supernatural competence.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I dont see why mastery of currently unknown physics should be considered a supernatural competence.

It isn't mastery of unknown physics it is all physics period. They are "nonphysical" by definition.


"In physics, the measurement deals with physical quantity only. Quantity can be classified into two types; they are physical and non-physical quantity.

Physical Quantities are those quantities that can be measured, either directly or indirectly. Some physical quantities are dependent on other quantities while others do not depend on any further quantities except themselves. The examples of physical quantities are: Mass, Acceleration, Temperature, Force, Pressure, Electric Current, Potential Difference, etc. On the basis of their dependency, they are further classified into two types; they are Fundamental and Derived Quantity. We will discuss about them in next post.


Unlikely to physical quantities, non-physical quantities are those quantities that cannot be measured by any mean or media. These quantities do not have magnitude of themselves. Some example of non-physical quantities are: Feelings, Angriness, Rudeness, etc. No one can measure the feeling of a person, or love, etc.

Hence these things cannot be measured and therefore are known as non-physical quantity."

Physics: Physical & Non-Physical Quantity Definition | Science Dudes



The interdimensional hypothesis (IDH or IH), is an idea advanced by Ufologists such as Jacques Vallée that says unidentified flying objects (UFOs) and related events involve visitations from other "realities" or "dimensions" that coexist separately alongside our own. It is not necessarily an alternative to the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH) seeing as the two hypotheses are not mutually exclusive so both could be true simultaneously. IDH also holds that UFOs are a modern manifestation of a phenomenon that has occurred throughout recorded human history, which in prior ages were ascribed to mythological or supernatural creatures.[1]

Interdimensional hypothesis - Wikipedia


Flatland: A romance of many dimensions
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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"I cannot conceive of humans developing the lung capacity and related physiological changes that would allow us to dive as deep and as long as sperm whales." I said that. Many species have particularly well-developed capacities that make them successful in some environmental niche. For humans, it's cognitive capacities.

There are many different materialist positions. Your characterisation is a sweeping generalisation; in my experience, the majority of materialists think that thought is a subset of brain processes, a few think consciousness is an epiphenomenon, many think free will exists (compatibilism) and the many more think rationality is the product of logical symbol manipulation in brain processes. A lot depends on the precise definitions of these terms, and there's a lot of talking at cross-purposes due to unstated but conflicting definitions.

It seems to me that a reasonable approach is to see things in term of levels of emergence or abstraction. Each level has its own descriptive language and concepts. For example, at one level, it's particles interacting - we use the language and concepts of physics to describe this level; at another level, it's chemicals interacting - we use the language and concepts of biochemistry here; at another level, it's cells interacting - we use the language and concepts of cell biology and neurobiology here; at another level, it's information processing - we use the language and concepts of information science here; at another level, it's behavioural - we use the language and concepts of anthropology here.

The level related to discussion of conscious experience straddles those of information processing and social behaviour - we use the language and concepts of the mind, thinking, experience, consciousness, etc., here.

Mixing levels of description is generally counterproductive, unless you're investigating how one layer is emergent from or interacts with another. So when talking about sub-atomic particles, it's pointless to talk of metabolism; and when talking about a living cell, it's pointless to discuss its sub-atomic particles. Similarly, when discussing thinking, consciousness, rationality, and behaviour, it's generally pointless to talk of chemical interactions (unless discussing the interactions of chemicals with these functions).

Mixing levels of description is a kind of category error. It makes no more sense to say that we can't think because we're just a bunch of chemicals, than it does to say that planes can't fly because they're just a bunch of metal and plastic pieces.

This is the confusion that arises when mixing levels of description without good reason, and is often compounded by the use of poorly-defined concepts, open to multiple interpretations (such as 'free will', 'thinking', and 'rational').

Here are some more reasons to think we are more than our brains, that we exist both as individuals in some sense at one with our brains, but also in another sense independent of our brains.
So far, you haven't given any reasons, just examples of confused thinking.

This is not a problem for brain science. The basic mechanisms underlying brain plasticity, adaptation, learning, and redundancy, are being discovered in ever greater detail.

You might be interested in Hebbian theory and its famous dictum, "Cells that fire together wire together". It was an early (and incomplete) description of how learning can occur in the brain by neurons increasing their connectivity. I was at a conference at the end of last year where film was shown of neurons, in realtime and in vivo, producing new and stronger synaptic connections under repeated stimulation, as part of a series of experiments showing the formation and manipulation of memories.

It's true that we've 'hit the jackpot' with the co-evolutionary synergies of our cognitive abilities, but this isn't magic; for example, abstraction and symbol manipulation in social contexts give rise to language and culture, which, in turn, produce selective pressure for further cognitive development, aided by cumulative knowledge.

So far, you've described is what we're particularly good at, but you haven't actually made an argument that this requires that we're 'more than just our brains', or 'independent of our brains' - unless it's an argument from incredulity, which, I'm sure you're aware, is a fallacy.
 
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Anguspure

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Hit the jackpot? If I had similar luck on the Lottery I would have won every single Lottery in the world on every single draw for years and still have plenty of "luck" left over.
To write off language and reason as simply the result of a cosmic lottery merely shows the lengths of absurdity that materialists are willing to plumb. I would say to "defend the position" but absurdity at this level is like a person claiming they are a poached egg in order to avoid the expectation of rationality.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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So still just an (increasingly emotional) argument from incredulity. Let me know when you have something more.
 
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Anguspure

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So still just an (increasingly emotional) argument from incredulity. Let me know when you have something more.
The argument does not come from incredulity, the evidence is before us. Rather it is the materialist who stands incredulous because he confuses methodology (and the role it plays in deliberately limiting the extent of investigation for the sake of good order), with ideology that is committed to the limited frame of view because of other commitments.

The fact is that the scientific method committed to materialism as it is, is incapable of making a proper assesment of a plausible explanation beyond the boundaries set and must commit itself to ever more (dis)ingenuous (or ridiculous) ways of turning the trajectory of the evidence back within the boundaries it has set.

But when faced with such high odds, one should be incredulous. It is irrational not to be so. When a person tells you he has won a hand with royal flushes 30 times in a row simply by hitting "the jackpot" it might be time to be a little bit incredulous. Unless we are a committed materialists, that is, in which case it should hardly raise an eyebrow. These things happen all the time after all and we can always think up another just so story to turn things back the way we want them.
 
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Anguspure

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So still just an (increasingly emotional) argument from incredulity. Let me know when you have something more.
"Neuroscientist Michael Egnor has been engaged in a debate with University of Toronto psychiatry professor Faizal Ali. Their topic is whether a material organ alone, the brain, or purely material processes, can explain the human gift for abstract thought. That is an endowment seemingly unique to humans. Materialists need to give an account of it in materialist terms, otherwise their picture of reality falls to pieces."

Egnor explains:
"The standard materialist theory of abstract thought is that it arises from the intricacy and complexity of neural networks in the cerebral cortex. That is Dr. Ali’s argument. But this materialist argument is really just hand-waving amounting to magic (“lots of neurons fire together… and suddenly abstract thought appears!”)

Materialists never explain how the firing of lots of neurons (magically) evokes abstract thought. You just have to trust them on that.

Materialists use this claim of “delicate complexity” theory to attempt to explain why seizures and brain stimulation never evoke abstract thought. The brain mechanisms for abstract thought are said to be too delicate and complex!

But this argument leaves the materialist theory vulnerable to equally compelling ablation research. That is, if abstract thought depends critically on delicate complexity of neural networks, then certainly such networks would be disrupted or destroyed by split-brain surgery or by the massive diffuse brain damage that causes persistent vegetative state.

Yet, contrary to materialist theory, patients after split-brain surgery have completely normal abstract thought (the only changes are subtle changes in non-abstract perceptual thought). Also, patients in a persistent vegetative state often retain high levels of abstract thought despite massive diffuse destruction of much of their brain.

Materialists can’t have it both ways. Either abstract thought depends on delicate complex brain interconnections, or it doesn’t. Not both.

The truth is that the neuroscience research applicable to the question of the materiality or immateriality of abstract thought only makes sense if we acknowledge that abstract thought is not a product of the brain at all. To wit, neuroscience research has shown no correlation between abstract thought and brain activity (Libet’s ‘free won’t’), neuroscience research has shown no evocation of abstract thought by stimulation of the brain or by seizures (Penfield), and neuroscience research has shown no ablation of abstract thought by splitting the brain in half (Sperry) or by massive diffuse brain damage (Owen).

Materialists may attempt to explain one of these findings (with the usual hand-waving), but they cannot explain all of them because materialism would have to contradict itself to explain all these results. If abstract thought is caused by delicate complex brain interconnections, then it should be easily destroyed by cutting those interconnections.

It’s time that materialists set aside their metaphysical bias and follow the obvious scientific evidence. The only explanation that accounts for all of the evidence in neuroscience — correlative, evocative and ablative — is that abstract thought is an immaterial power of the mind."

https://evolutionnews.org/2019/07/egnor-how-to-test-materialist-theories-of-mind/
 
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Anguspure

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Here is an interesting article on the topic:
https://evolutionnews.org/2019/07/the-prospect-of-intelligent-aliens-puts-materialists-in-a-pickle/

Diane Peters at Undark explains the problem posed by the (pickle-shaped, come to think of it) ‘Oumuamua. From “The Pitfalls of Searching for Alien Life”:

[W]hile scientists tossing around the idea of alien life may find a rapt public audience, they can also draw cynical, even hostile reactions from their fellow scientists, a response summed up by acclaimed physicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, who once quipped to CNN: “Call me when you have a dinner invite from an alien.”

This paradox has ripple effects. The threat of being written off as a kook can loom large for researchers, especially young ones. A lot of academics “won’t touch it with a 10-foot pole,” said Don Donderi, a retired associate professor of psychology at McGill University in Montreal who now teaches a non-credit course called “UFOs: History and Reality” in the school’s continuing education department.

[Avi] Loeb says many discoveries have their roots in theories that were initially dismissed. He thinks open-mindedness keeps scientific inquiry moving forward, while shutting down new theories “reduces the efficiency of science.”

NASA physicist Silvano Colombano maintains that the search for extraterrestrial intelligence has been limited by long-held assumptions and that the “general avoidance of the subject by the scientific community” means no one questions them. It’s a dilemma: scientists might look like cranks for posing questions about aliens, but we’ll also never know unless someone asks.

A Familiar Situation
The situation is very familiar: “open-mindedness” versus “shutting down new theories,” a subject of inquiry denied on principle, where “we’ll…never know unless someone asks,” where scientists are cowed by the terror of “looking like a crank.” That’s the argument over intelligent design in a nutshell. The difference, as Michael Egnor observed here when ‘Oumuamua first came to the public’s excited notice, is that evidence for design in the cell far exceeds evidence for aliens:

If they found a tiny fraction of that evidence for design on ʻOumuamua, it would be the scientific discovery of the millennium. Yet we find design everywhere in living things, on an immense scale. There’s a breathtaking lack of self-awareness in the scientific community about intelligent design. Much of the most fascinating and cutting edge science in many fields is design science, but ideological blinders prevent good scientists like Dr. Loeb from acknowledging that, like space archeology, cellular archeology is science at its best.
 
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Colter

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Imagine if you will an alien or celestial being, incarnating into a human at the instant of conception and growing into one of the most influential personalities in the world. Having advanced ideas of love and tolerance for all the earth, he would be rejected by his host culture and killed, but three days later he returned from apparent death on his own volition, visited a bit with his followers then vanished leaving the promise to return some day?

 
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durangodawood

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We were discussing the possibility that aliens have understood more about time and space, mass and motion than we have. These seem very much in the realm of the physical and measurable to me.

We're not talking about adventures in rudeness or other subjective states.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Again, arguments from incredulity, some straw-man 'materialist claims', and a lot of hot air without any plausible alternative argument - to call materialist claims 'handwaving', then suggest that the 'immaterial power of the mind' is an explanation is more than ironic

Abstraction (generalisation, categorization, conceptualisation, etc.) can be achieved very efficiently by pattern-seeking and pattern-matching coupled with associative storage and retrieval - which happen to be functions that neural networks like the brain are particularly well-suited to. That's not to say that neural networks are necessary - computational abstraction is a major field of computer science and information processing.

The idea that you have to describe exactly how neurons fire together to perform abstraction indicates some basic lack of understanding of such networks - it's one of the remaining hurdles to safety-critical use of neural networks that we can't generally see exactly how they perform their tasks.

As for 'delicate complexity theory' as an 'attempt to explain why seizures and brain stimulation never evoke abstract thought', without a citation for the theory and evidence that, 'seizures and brain stimulation never evoke abstract thought', I can't really comment - I'm sceptical, it sounds like a straw man - but Egnor's citation of split-brain patients as counter-examples actually supports a materialist view.

Dividing the corpus callosum separates the two hemispheres and produces what appear to be dual consciousness's, each hemisphere having separate - and sometimes conflicting - views, preferences, & even beliefs. Yet Egnor decribes them as "... still one person". Assuming the 'delicate complexity' idea is a supportable claim, it would not be unexpected that abstract thought survives corpus callosotomy - the corpus callosum is a 'trunk road' of connectivity between two similar processing systems in which the 'delicate complexity' of abstract thought occurs.

I was puzzled why Egnor would not only wrongly describe the result of corpus callosotomy, but, surprisingly, try to use it in support of immaterialism - until I checked him out - RationalWiki has his details, which explain it, and more. Also a neurosurgeon, he must be aware of the split-brain studies, so his misrepresentation must be deliberate... Michael Egnor is clearly not a reliable source.

It's also worth noting that networks with connectivity involving key nodes that roughly scale in size with internodal distance, such as the brain (or the internet) are very resilient to both localised and diffuse damage.

As for the as-yet unsupported claims of human exceptionalism you're promoting, it's pretty clear that other animals are also capable of various levels of (less sophisticated) abstract thought, problem-solving and forward planning, e.g. Animal Reasoning.

However, it's a complex issue and discussions can be plagued by problems of definition, e.g. what is abstract thought? which often lead to fallacious arguments via Moving the Goalposts, Special Pleading, and 'No True Scotsman' claims.

This article, Can Animals Think Abstractly? sums it up quite well, and has some interesting links:

Quote: Holly Dunsworth: "...In fact, I think much of our own behavior that we believe is due to abstract reasoning is actually the same mechanistic, conditioned, plastic, and innovative behavior that's occurring in other species. That is, not only do we anthropomorphize gorillas and other animals too much, but we anthropomorphize humans too much."
Caution is always warranted in teasing apart these cognitive questions, yet there's convincing evidence that some animals reason abstractly under some circumstances (some other examples regarding nonhuman primates can be found here; data are available, too, for animals as diverse as dolphins and pigs).
'Nuff said.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The argument does not come from incredulity, the evidence is before us.
There is no evidence for the 'immaterial'. What we have is evidence that humans have cognitive capacities similar to those of other animals, but more sophisticated.

Science attempts to describe and explain observations in testable ways - but even so, a great deal of effort goes into explanations that we do not yet have ways of testing but that are based on, or are predictions of, existing well-tested theories.

What odds? I suspect you don't have any calculation to back up this claim, so explain what you think the odds are about and how you conclude that they are 'incredulously high'.

It seems to me the analogy is entirely false, but if someone says he has won a hand with royal flushes 30 times in a row simply by hitting "the jackpot", an intelligent scientist would know that it's possible but astronomically unlikely, so would look for evidence of cheating or fabrication. What would you do, invoke 'immaterial' influences?
 
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