DO A GOOD DEED! If you can converrt me, DO IT PLEASE!

[Catherineanne]

To Catherineanne,
If He finds us, then what about free will? You mean our decision to follow God is not about free will, but about us being found by God instead? What about those who are never found by God? Why don't God just 'find' everyone.

Who says he hasn't?

If you look again, you will see that I said this innate sense of that which is beyond and greater than us is in every human being. Therefore, the call to find God is in every human being.

Those who do not find God are those who choose not to, not those who never hear him call.

Free will is the choice to say, yes I will find that which is greater than myself, or to say, I myself am the greatest product of the universe; there is none greater. In other words, we find God outside ourselves, or we become God in our own head.

 

[jade eyes]

Tanks..

Its apparent that you think logically about many things which is fine. If your looking into Christianity you are first going to have to accept that some things may not make sense to your human mind. I'm sure theres all kinds of things that happen everyday that don't make sense to you but you accept them none the less so its not that hard.

You talk about science. Who do you think created the laws of science? Just because scientific advances are made it does not mean the Bible is incorrect. Humans may discover the mechanism God uses to do certain things, but that doesn't mean God is not in charge of them. Science is not all that great as everyone thinks it is. It just gets more attention because of the way our media and how people today are constantly bombarded with propaganda against God. If God got as much attention as science in the news people would be in an uproar about it threatening to sue. You seem like a good person with a good heart, and thats a great start but to be honest with you thats not the most important thing, and it won't get you into heaven.

Even if you only trust science at this point, then listen to this. Evolution is not only silly, its scientifically false and not only that mathmatically impossible. Its even called a theory. Its not Evolutionary truth, its evolutionary theory. Scientist and mathmaticians did a study of the human body. In order for one gene to mutate, just to have one gene that makes up a human to come from random chance is impossible. Science says that in order for something to be "impossible" in scientific terms it must be a 1:10000000000000000 (16 zero's) or less chance to happen. They did thier study and the chance of one gene mutating to create the make up of a human the chance of it happening is more like having something like 3X that many zero's. Thats for ONE gene or dna piece or whatever. THEN to have all those mutations working in unison together and have every other strand of dna... well you can see how rediculous it is. Even with all that science can't explain how we have a conciousness.

Do you believe in miracles? Miracles happen every day but people discount them as luck or kharma. Seriously theres so much that science fails to explain. And if your going to listen to atheists think about this. To an atheist, theres nothing after you die. So basically all you have is your time on this earth. If you have that limited amount of time from that standpoint then basically all people have to do in life is survive and pursue pleasure. If thats true then why are they wasting thier time trying to convince people of thier opinion when other people don't matter? We are all gonna die and thats it from thier viewpoint. Why are they wasting thier 70 years of existence in this universe surfing the internet or talking to people about thier views if none of it matters? Should they not be out living it up so to speak? If I was an atheist I'd just go around doing everything that feels good and try to live as long as I can and enjoy as much as I can. If someone made me mad, I'd beat them down. If I liked a girl I'd have sex with her. If it tastes good I would eat it all the time. That sounds like an animal to me, not how a person should behave. Do you see my point? Does this help you at all?

 

[Catherineanne]

What if we say, "There is something greater than ourselves, and it is not God?"

The Sun is a power greater than I am. A black hole is a power greater than I am. An elephant is a power greater than I am. I am moved to awe whenever I observe or contemplate any of these things, molded and shaped by forces underlying the fabric of the universe over spans of time I can scarcely imagine.

In this case you have created a God who is nature/science - call it what you like. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is the most ancient faith of all.

What matters only is that you recognise that you are not the pinnacle of intellect or achievement. Whether you then to on to personalise your God is up to you.

It really doesn't matter whether any of us recognise that what we are doing is worshipping something outside ourselves; it is still worship, whether we know it or not. The vast majority of western people worship what the OT calls mammon; materialism, in other words. A bigger and better house, newer car, plasma tv. All of these are gods, just as much as the sun used to be for our ancestors.

I think it is probably impossible to find one single human being on earth who is a true atheist; one who does not accept the existence of God, and who also does not worship any other god substitute; science, quantum physics, genetics, or more prosaic materialism, ancestor worship or whatever. This may seem an extreme claim, but given that innate searching which I already mentioned, it is pretty well inevitable.

Therefore, true Atheism is not possible; it is a fantasy. Moreover it is meaningless. What kind of fool would want to be defined by what they are not? I happen not to be German, but the descriptor 'non German' says absolutely nothing about me. Similarly, 'atheist' says absolutely nothing about anyone. You don't believe in God? Good for you, but who cares? What matters is what you do believe in.

You see, it's perfectly possible to be cognizant of this drive in humans to be aware of a greater power, without satisfying that drive with a God. Doing so certainly is not the same as imagining oneself to be God. (Where do people get this idea about atheists?)

Nice overdefending.

I did not say that atheists make themselves into God. I said that we each of us either find God outside ourselves, as you have done with nature, or else we make ourselves into God.

The second does not denote atheism, but narcissism.

 

[visionary]

That is what makes the real God outstanding... for the wisdom, understanding and intelligence for those who have a relationship with Him. One thing you find about the believer is that they will all tell you how they were raised up in Him. Where their mind was before in a weakened and decaying state and with God lifting them up out of the filth of their lives and mind and cleaning them and giving them a new life and new source of strength and wisdom.

You can not get that from any other source. He is the source of all inspirations.

 

[Catherineanne]

That is what makes the real God outstanding... for the wisdom, understanding and intelligence for those who have a relationship with Him. One thing you find about the believer is that they will all tell you how they were raised up in Him. Where their mind was before in a weakened and decaying state and with God lifting them up out of the filth of their lives and mind and cleaning them and giving them a new life and new source of strength and wisdom.

You can not get that from any other source. He is the source of all inspirations.

Although much of this is true, I think it worth pointing out that my mind was not in an weakened or decaying state before the Lord found me, nor was my life or mind one of filth. If remarkable at all, it would have been for the non incidence of filth or sin, and for an amazing degree of naivete. Sad but true.

The above comment does not apply, therefore, to all believers. Just some.

Thought I ought to point that out. Not all Christians believe man in his natural state to be an object of weakness, filth and decay. Some of us believe that God created us in his own image to be sweet, charming, and it has to be said, rather loveable. Else why would he bother to love us at all?

 

[dluvs2trvl]

MOD HAT

Thread closed for staff review

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Nicene Creed


We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

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Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
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and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
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Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic**, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins***. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)


*The phrase in square brackets [and the Son] (known as the filioque clause) is not compulsory and does not need to be affirmed by members.

**The word "catholic" (literally, "universal") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination or institution.

***This can be interpreted to mean that baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or a regenerating ordinance.​

MOD HAT
​

 

[dluvs2trvl]

MOD HAT

This thread will remain closed

This is a NO DEBATE area and unfortunately, many of the FSG's for this forum have been violated in this thread.

I have previously posted the FSG's and am advising everyone to abide by them in future threads.

MOD HAT
​