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DNA Code Indicates Creator

dad

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Can't really argue with that. The history of how humans created the language is very well documented.

But you avoided answering Loudmouth's question. Where is the evidence that the language of DNA was created by an intelligent designer?
The proof is in the pudding. Hummingbirds do amazing things for little critters. They are more equipped with some sort of programming or genes or something that allow them to do that. Things like precise navigation over long distances with their little brains and all. Such it is with man and all creatures. Where there is a program, there has to be a programmer. Where there is art there must be an artist. Where there is intricate precise designing, there is a designer. Order doesn't come from chaos. A plane crashing on the earth will not produce a supercomputer.
 
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dad

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Personalities are demonstrably the products of brain activity. Brains are, in essence, bags of chemicals - don't get me wrong, they're highly complex bags of chemicals with sophisticated organization - but, they are bags of chemicals.

Spirits - what are they? what are they supposed to do?

Prove that personalities are the product of brain activity rather than the other way round then? You made the claim.

Spirits? The are personalities with no physical brain or physical anything else. So much for your claim.
 
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dad

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My point to the atheist is that bringing in religion when discussing the evidence of intelligent design in nature is unnecessary. From a religious viewpoint it is of course. But since this is a science forum I think that it would be out of place.
It is necessary to be honest. If you believe Jesus created all things, say so. Who cares if they think that is scienmatific? I suspect atheists can detect it when someone is not being upfront and hiding things.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Looking at butterflies, hummingbirds, ants and all the various created animals, and man, and current nature, and the solar system, and universe, one cannot help but see a design. To have blinded oneself so badly as to miss it, is the great danger of two bit little phony godless so called science. The creatures so blinded by science also show design, by the contrast to reality and sanity they demonstrate to all.

I see design. We disagree on the source.
I'll choose for the source that is supported by evidence.

You can go with the bronze age story.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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We aren't claiming that chemicals don't react. Obviously chemicals react. What is being said is that the manner in which they react in the case of life indicates a planning, organizing mind, otherwise their reactions would be haphazard and not organized towards the purpose of constructing a such things as a heart, a digestive system, an eye or a brain.

Why?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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My point to the atheist is that bringing in religion when discussing the evidence of intelligent design in nature is unnecessary. From a religious viewpoint it is of course. But since this is a science forum I think that it would be out of place.

But not so out of place, apparantly, to accuse everyone who disagrees of having "atheistic agenda's".
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Well, when we test to see if DNA meets the qualifications which indicate planning mind we find that it does. .

How does that tests work?
What are the criteria that unmistakenly indicate "plannin gmind"?
 
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KCfromNC

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My point to the atheist is that bringing in religion when discussing the evidence of intelligent design in nature is unnecessary.

Why not? ID is a political move to get Christianity taught in schools. Seems pretty relevant to point this out. See The Wedge Document | NCSE for more details.
 
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dad

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I see design. We disagree on the source.
I'll choose for the source that is supported by evidence.

You can go with the bronze age story.
So what is your source for the design you admit??
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Prove that personalities are the product of brain activity rather than the other way round then? You made the claim.
Like any conclusion based on scientific evidence, it's the best available explanation for the observations, not a proof. The observations are that every generally recognised aspect of personality can be changed by interfering with brain function, and the specific aspects that change correspond to interference with specific functions and areas of the brain. These results suggest that specific areas and functions of the brain are responsible for specific aspects of personality. This fits well with what is known of brain function in general, and invokes no unknown forces or influences, so is parsimonious.

But maybe you have a different concept of what 'personality' is, or perhaps you have a parsimonious explanation that has equal or greater explanatory and predictive power?

Spirits? The are personalities with no physical brain or physical anything else. So much for your claim.
If they're not physical, how do you know they exist? how can you detect them? how can they influence the physical?
 
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dad

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Like any conclusion based on scientific evidence, it's the best explanation for the observations, not a proof.
No it is your preferred explanation only. The best explanation in the minds of millions of people includes the reality of the past history and bible and God. The natural only, present nature only based explanations are religious dogmas.

The observations are that every generally recognised aspect of personality can be changed by interfering with brain function, and the specific aspects that change correspond to interference with specific functions and areas of the brain.
I haven't seen you post support for that yet.
These results suggest that specific areas and functions of the brain are responsible for specific aspects of personality.
How do you define personality, and how long does the effects of monkeying with people's brains last? Seems to me people who would even do or support such experiments have a serious disorder!

This fits well with what is known of brain function in general, and invokes no unknown forces or influences, so is parsimonious.
Show the experiment, I will second guess the meaning.
But maybe you have a different concept of what 'personality' is, or perhaps you have a parsimonious explanation that has equal or greater explanatory and predictive power?
Different than...what? You have been vague.
If they're not physical, how do you know they exist?
How do you know they don't?

If you mother were alive and in another country, how would you know she existed?
how can you detect them?
Not by science!

how can they influence the physical?
In all ways. The thing is one needs to be spiritual minded by being born of the spirit to detect things of the spirit.
 
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MissRowy

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MOD HAT ON
THIS THREAD HAS UNDERGONE A CLEAN UP
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM FLAMING/GOADING/OFF TOPIC POSTS
THIS THREAD IS BEING MOVED TO CREATION/EVOLUTION
HAVE A GOOD DAY

MOD HAT OFF
 
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joshua 1 9

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The proof is in the pudding. Hummingbirds do amazing things for little critters. They are more equipped with some sort of programming or genes or something that allow them to do that. Things like precise navigation over long distances with their little brains and all. Such it is with man and all creatures. Where there is a program, there has to be a programmer. Where there is art there must be an artist. Where there is intricate precise designing, there is a designer. Order doesn't come from chaos. A plane crashing on the earth will not produce a supercomputer.
It is amazing that God is able to pack so much intelligence into a tiny little package like that. But then when animals start to get bigger and get to be the size of a cat then all of a sudden they get very stupid.
 
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Radrook

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It is amazing that God is able to pack so much intelligence into a tiny little package like that. But then when animals start to get bigger and get to be the size of a cat then all of a sudden they get very stupid.
They were intended to be stupid.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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No it is your preferred explanation only. The best explanation in the minds of millions of people includes the reality of the past history and bible and God. The natural only, present nature only based explanations are religious dogmas.
The accuracy or correctness of an idea is not dependent on the number of its supporters or believers (unless it's self-referential, like 'this idea has the most believers' ;)), or the length of its history.

As I see it, the problems with religious dogmas as explanations is that they make no testable predictions; have no explanatory power (they don't increase our understanding of the phenomena); they raise more questions than they answer (you can't explain the unexplained with the inexplicable); they are not parsimonious, invoking additional inexplicable and undetectable entities; and they don't mesh with our existing body of knowledge. Also, there are multiple different religious dogmas, many of them conflicting - they can't all be correct, and without testable predictions there's no way to distinguish which of them is the best explanation (although it seems pointless anyway, as none of them have explanatory power).

That personality is a function of the brain is my preferred explanation because it makes testable predictions that are fruitful, it has explanatory power and scope, it is parsimonious - invoking no additional entities beyond the brain itself, and it is entirely consistent with our existing body of knowledge of the brain.

I'd like to hear any arguments you have to contradict the problems with religious dogma as an explanation, that I described above.

I haven't seen you post support for that yet.
Concise lists of the relations between aspects of personality and brain areas and functions are usually found in books, but here's are some links that give a flavour:

After Brain Injury: The Dark Side of Personality Change
The Moral Brain
Moral judgments can be altered ... by magnets
Personality changes and brain tumours
The Main Areas Involved with Emotions
Motivation Stems From Single Brain Region: The Posterior Cingulate Cortex
‘A different person’: Personality change often brain injury’s hidden toll
and so-on.

How do you define personality, and how long does the effects of monkeying with people's brains last? Seems to me people who would even do or support such experiments have a serious disorder!
It's really more relevant how you define personality, as it was you who described spirits as non-physical 'personalities'. I was assuming the general usage, meaning "the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character", i.e. what you glean about their nature from what they say and do.

Show the experiment, I will second guess the meaning.
See the links above. The majority of evidence comes from studies of brain injuries, although there have been lab experiments, such as changing morals with magnets, and there's also evidence from brain stimulation during brain surgery where the patient is conscious.

Different than...what? You have been vague.
See above (if anyone, it was you that was vague - you used the term to describe spirits without any clarification or explanation).

How do you know they don't?
I don't, but the evidence indicates that they are redundant - showing that the property or function you attributed to them is a product of brain activity. There is also the 'interaction problem' concerning how the non-physical can influence the physical, and the related fact that there are no physical fields or forces beyond electromagnetism that are significant to brain function, so unless your 'spirits' are electromagnetic phenomena they can't affect brain function, and if they were significant enough to do so, they'd easily be detectable.

If you mother were alive and in another country, how would you know she existed?
There are many different ways I could know that, but no certainties - as the many people reunited with parents they thought were dead can testify. How is it relevant to personalities or spirits?

Not by science!
If they're undetectable by science, it means they must have no detectable influence on things science can measure, which includes all the processes involved in brain function... which means they are ineffectual; as I said, redundant - we have no need of that hypothesis, there is no evidence for it, and the evidence there is suggests it's false. 'Spirit' might work as poesy - a metaphor, or as a synonym for 'personality', etc., but it's not a coherent description of a real-world phenomenon.

In all ways. The thing is one needs to be spiritual minded by being born of the spirit to detect things of the spirit.
The empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Also, see the 'Interaction Problem' above.
 
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Radrook

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Are you saying God made cats stupid to make dogs look good by comparison?
Actually, I don't consider animals stupid. I just consider them programmed to behave in certain ways. Perhaps God made cats a to appear indifferent in order to enhance our appreciation for the gregariousness of dogs. However, some do prefer the aloofness of cats. So I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
 
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Speedwell

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The proof is in the pudding. Hummingbirds do amazing things for little critters. They are more equipped with some sort of programming or genes or something that allow them to do that. Things like precise navigation over long distances with their little brains and all. Such it is with man and all creatures. Where there is a program, there has to be a programmer. Where there is art there must be an artist. Where there is intricate precise designing, there is a designer. Order doesn't come from chaos. A plane crashing on the earth will not produce a supercomputer.
Chaos? What chaos?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Actually, I don't consider animals stupid. I just consider them programmed to behave in certain ways. Perhaps God made cats a to appear indifferent in order to enhance our appreciation for the gregariousness of dogs. However, some do prefer the aloofness of cats. So I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
WE know that all of creation is in need of redemption: "…21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.…" Romans 8
 
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Godexists

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Intelligent design qualifies as a scientific theory





Hypothesis (Prediction): Natural structures will be found that contain many parts arranged in intricate patterns, metabolic pathways similar to electronic circuits, sophisticated language and translation systems, indicating high levels of Information, and interdependence, like hard/software. No information, nor codes or ciphers ( translators ) can exist and will be found without an initial mental source, since information is, by its nature, a mental and not a material quantity.

Observation: The genetic code system is a language , and the universal code is nearly optimal and maximally efficient ( only 1 in every million random alternative codes generated is more efficient than the genetic code ). Genomes use the genetic code to write two separate languages, beside a cipher, to translate codon triplets into a amino-acid "alphabet" constituent of 20 different left handed amino acids to make proteins. One code describes how proteins are made, and the other instructs the cell on how genes are controlled and when expressed. There are 13 characteristics of human language. DNA shares 10 of them ( all LEVELS of Information: Statistics, Syntax, Semantics, Pragmatics, Aprobatics are used ) This comparison between cell language and human language is not a loose analogy - it’s literal. Human language and cell language both employ multilayered symbols to produce a blueprint - required to describe a artifact, and in biology, a organism.

DNA sequences that code for proteins need to convey, in addition to the protein-coding information, several different signals at the same time. These “parallel codes” include binding sequences for regulatory and structural proteins, signals for splicing, and RNA secondary structure. The universal genetic code can efficiently carry arbitrary parallel codes much better than the vast majority of other possible genetic codes. This property is related to the identity of the stop codons. We find that the ability to support parallel codes is strongly tied to another useful property of the genetic code—minimization of the effects of frame-shift translation errors. Whereas many of the known regulatory codes reside in nontranslated regions of the genome, the present findings suggest that protein-coding regions can readily carry abundant additional information. The output are thousands of essential proteins and enzymes required for life; sophisticated molecular machinery is needed to replicate the code (for inheritance/perpetuation), transcribe it, translate it into protein with many intermediate steps requiring highly specific operations, and to repair it in the foreseen event that it is damaged (to preserve/protect it) or destroy it in the event that it suffers irreparable damage (to forestall cancer). Beside the standard genetic code, other 23 genetic codes are known, beside epigenetic codes, that is, the Splicing Code, the Metabolic Code, the Signal Transduction Codes, the Signal Integration Codes , the Histone Code, the Tubulin Code, the Sugar Code, and the Glycomic Code, all essential to define a organism and phenotype.

Experiment :
One language is written on top of the other, which is why the second language remained hidden for so long. Biologic systems and processes cannot be fully accounted for in terms of the principles and laws of physics and chemistry alone, but they require in addition the principles of semiotics—the science of symbols and signs, including linguistics. Summarizing the state of the art in the study of the code evolution, science cannot escape considerable skepticism. It seems that the two-pronged fundamental questions: “why is the genetic code the way it is and how did it come to be?”, that was asked over 50 years ago, at the dawn of molecular biology, might remain pertinent even in another 50 years, if methodological naturalism is adopted, and only natural explanations for its orgin are permitted. The consolation is that scientists cannot think of a more fundamental problem in biology. Despite extensive and, in many cases, elaborate attempts to model code optimization, ingenious theorizing along the lines of the coevolution theory, and considerable experimentation, very little definitive progress has been made.

Intelligent agents act frequently with an end goal in mind, constructing complex multipart-machines, that require a blueprint to build the object. Furthermore, Computers integrate software/hardware and store high levels of instructional complex coded information. In our experience, systems that either a) require or b) store large amounts of specified / instructed complex information such as codes and languages, and which are constructed in a interdependence of hard and software invariably originate from an intelligent source. No exception. There is a presence of an identical feature in both DNA and intelligently designed codes, languages, and artifacts. Because we know intelligent agents can (and do) produce complex and functionally specified sequences of symbols and arrangements of matter, intelligent agency qualifies as an adequate causal explanation for the origin of this effect. Since, in addition, materialistic theories have proven universally inadequate for explaining the origin of coded information and translation systems, intelligent causation stands as the only entity with the causal power known to produce this feature of living systems.

Falsification: Nobody has yet been able to demonstrate naturally emerging informational systems based on codes and ciphers, and instructional information stored within these codes to produce a defined complex specified outcome. Perry Marshall, author of the book Evolution 2.0, has yet to pay the prize to someone that will come up and will meet the challenge.
 
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