DNA Code Indicates Creator

[Skreeper]

Here is your question:

If the entire universe and everything in it is designed, how would you tell the difference between design and non-design?

We could use our brains that God gave us. When I look at a pile of manure, I see that someone stacked it up there. If I look at a pile of thread, I do not see a well sewn shirt. When I look at a clock, I do not see a pile of random bits.

But in your world the pile of thread is also designed. So what is the difference between a designed pile of thread and a designed shirt?
Can you give me an example of something that is not designed?

 

[dad]

But in your world the pile of thread is also designed. So what is the difference between a designed pile of thread and a designed shirt?
Can you give me an example of something that is not designed?

Yes, the thread is also designed, but we might need to use or have a little more brains to detect that! Then we could go layers deeper, to the spool, dye, the construction of the little cord, etc etc.

It seems like many folks in science have used their brains to try and concoct reasons why intelligently designed things are 'really' not!

 

[Skreeper]

Yes, the thread is also designed, but we might need to use or have a little more brains to detect that! Then we could go layers deeper, to the spool, dye, the construction of the little cord, etc etc.

To be sure it is designed we need to contrast it from something that is not designed (nature). That's how we detect design.
So I ask again: Can you give me an example of something that is not designed and exists?

 

[dad]

To be sure it is designed we need to contrast it from something that is not designed (nature). That's how we detect design.
So I ask again: Can you give me an example of something that is not designed and exists?

So I guess it depends on the starting assumption one goes by. If one assumes nothing is designed...nothing will appear to be designed! If one knows God designed it all, it all will be recognized as designed!

 

[Skreeper]

So I guess it depends on the starting assumption one goes by. If one assumes nothing is designed...nothing will appear to be designed! If one knows God designed it all, it all will be recognized as designed!

That's not accurate. We can tell for example that cars are designed because we have evidence and past experiences that cars are a product of minds (humans) and they do not naturally occur; It is a product of design. Trees on the other hand do naturally occur without a mind acting on them. We have no evidence or past experiences of trees being designed by a mind; It is not a product of design.

 

[pitabread]

Here is your question:

If the entire universe and everything in it is designed, how would you tell the difference between design and non-design?

We could use our brains that God gave us. When I look at a pile of manure, I see that someone stacked it up there. If I look at a pile of thread, I do not see a well sewn shirt. When I look at a clock, I do not see a pile of random bits.

You definitely don't understand the question.

 

[dad]

That's not accurate. We can tell for example that cars are designed because we have evidence and past experiences that cars are a product of minds (humans) and they do not naturally occur; It is a product of design. Trees on the other hand do naturally occur without a mind acting on them.

That could only be said by one who started out believing nothing is designed!

Looking at a tree I see far more intricate design that a thread! A tree is an amazing complicated machine. Also useful in the extreme.

We have evidence of Scripture God made the trees also. To assume otherwise with no reason is to doubt unreasonably!

 

[Skreeper]

That could only be said by one who started out believing nothing is designed!

Looking at a tree I see far more intricate design that a thread! A tree is an amazing complicated machine. Also useful in the extreme.

We have evidence of Scripture God made the trees also. To assume otherwise with no reason is to doubt unreasonably!

If you had any experience in engineering you would know that the hallmark of design is simplicity and efficiency and not complexity.

Also I reject your scripture as a basis for anything.

 

[pitabread]

If one knows God designed it all, it all will be recognized as designed!

Which leaves us with a rather useless tautology and renders the enter argument for design completely moot.

 

[dad]

If you had any experience in engineering you would know that the hallmark of design is simplicity and efficiency and not complexity.

If we assumed there was no God, we might assume worldly engineers had some clue about building better than God. That would just tell us about our decision on where we wanted the starting assumption to be. God's designs are simple, but complicated to our minds also.

Also I reject your scripture as a basis for anything.

You might be able to do that for the inside of your own head. Out here in the rest of creation, Scripture is known to be the mind of God. Rejecting that is rejecting reason and sanity.

 

[dad]

Which leaves us with a rather useless tautology and renders the enter argument for design completely moot.

No more than assuming there is no God and having the skewed delusional view that nothing was designed.

 

[Skreeper]

You might be able to do that for the inside of your own head. Out here in the rest of creation, Scripture is known to be the mind of God. Rejecting that is rejecting reason and sanity.

I disagree. Thinking a book is somehow the mind of a god is rejecting reason and sanity.

Anyway, I'd like to ask a question: Do you absolutely know that your god exists? If your answer is yes, then how do you solve the problem of hard solipsism?

 

[dad]

I disagree. Thinking a book is somehow the mind of a god is rejecting reason and sanity.

Not according to Jesus. Not according to apostles and prophets. Not according to millions of people who experienced it's power, and others who researched it's fulfilled prophesies. Those who have dug deep have discovered the bible had to be designed too! There is no way disconnected strangers through history could have woven together the unimaginable tapestry that is the big picture of Scripture. The agreement with all the rest of the books of the bible (in some cases which they had never even seen!) is far far far far far far far far beyond coincidence.

Anyway, I'd like to ask a question: Do you absolutely know that your god exists? If your answer is yes, then how do you solve the problem of hard solipsism?

I don't need to solve problems in people's heads. Once people decide to accept or reject truth and God, what goes on in their head is secondary and basically a result of that choice.

As for God being real, prophesy proves that. The power of God in people's lives when they ask Him in proves that. The life and resurrection of Jesus prove that.

 

[Skreeper]

Not according to Jesus. Not according to apostles and prophets. Not according to millions of people who experienced it's power, and others who researched it's fulfilled prophesies. Those who have dug deep have discovered the bible had to be designed too! There is no way disconnected strangers through history could have woven together the unimaginable tapestry that is the big picture of Scripture. The agreement with all the rest of the books of the bible (in some cases which they had never even seen!) is far far far far far far far far beyond coincidence.

The same argument can be made for every other religion out there.

I don't need to solve problems in people's heads. Once people decide to accept or reject truth and God, what goes on in their head is secondary and basically a result of that choice.

As for God being real, prophesy proves that. The power of God in people's lives when they ask Him in proves that. The life and resurrection of Jesus prove that.

That could all be in your head. That's why I asked the question. No one has a solution to hard solipsism.
For the rest of what you said:There are failed prophesies, people of other religions claim that their deity shows his or her power and for the resurrection of Jesus, there is no empirical evidence that something like this can happen or that is actually has happened other than ambiguous texts.

 

[dad]

The same argument can be made for every other religion out there.

No, not for ANY other actually.

That could all be in your head. That's why I asked the question. No one has a solution to hard solipsism.

No, the bible could not be in my head or history.

For the rest of what you said:There are failed prophesies,

NOT in the bible! Not one.

people of other religions claim that their deity shows his or her power

And I would not really doubt some demon god would do that...so? There are evil spirits you know...real ones.

and for the resurrection of Jesus, there is no empirical evidence that something like this can happen or that is actually has happened other than ambiguous texts.

There is a world of evidence and there were eyewitnesses.

 

[pitabread]

No more than assuming there is no God and having the skewed delusional view that nothing was designed.

Who is assuming nothing is designed? Normally when we talk design versus nature, we are comparing human-made objects with naturally occurring ones.

The problem with assuming *everything* is designed is suddenly you have no more basis for comparison. It makes the design argument moot.

 

[pitabread]

there were eyewitnesses.

If the modern age of instant communication has taught us anything, it's that eyewitness testimony doesn't mean a heckuva lot and that humans are fantastic story-tellers. That Bible believers put their faith in so-called "eyewitness" testimony from two millennia ago simply boggles the mind.

 

[dad]

If the modern age of instant communication has taught us anything, it's that eyewitness testimony doesn't mean a heckuva lot and that humans are fantastic story-tellers. That Bible believers put their faith in so-called "eyewitness" testimony from two millennia ago simply boggles the mind.

False. Go to court with a few hundred eyewitnesses today and see if they matter.

 

[dad]

Who is assuming nothing is designed? Normally when we talk design versus nature, we are comparing human-made objects with naturally occurring ones.

The problem with assuming *everything* is designed is suddenly you have no more basis for comparison. It makes the design argument moot.

Assuming nothing is designed leaves you in that boat also. I think when talking design in the universe we are talking God the Designer. We do not need trinkets made by man to compare it to!

 

[Skreeper]

No, not for ANY other actually.

Then we have to agree to disagree.

No, the bible could not be in my head or history.

Prove it. I or you could be a crazy person sitting in an asylum and all this is in our head, or we are plugged in to the Matrix. You should let philosophers know that you apparently found the solution to hard solipsism.

NOT in the bible! Not one.

Give me your most convincing prophesy and I can tell you why its not a prophesy or how it failed.

And I would not really doubt some demon god would do that...so? There are evil spirits you know...real ones.

How do you rule out that you aren't under the influence of an evil spirit?

There is a world of evidence and there were eyewitnesses.

We have no eyewitness accounts in the New Testament. What we have is other people writing about eyewitnesses and not the eyewitnesses themselves. Also most New Testament scholars date the earliest writings between 70-150 AD.