DIVORCE

[Episaw]

Up until Victorian times widows didn’t have the right to their husbands property after his death. They couldn’t eat at a restaurant without a man . They certainly couldn’t take most jobs . They certainly couldn’t vote . Mainly Because of Bible based misogyny calling for women’s submission. Romans, pshaw!

keep posting your ignorance of the subject.

 

[Liza B.]

“Male and female He made them” is scripture. Males dominating females is actually chimpanzee behavior . Neither bonobos nor humans act like that normally. If you’re not socialized into being submissive, girls don’t act as if they’re not worthy of time, money, and attention. All you have to do is look at how marriage laws have changed from the 1600s until now to see how unfair and abusive these biblical ideas were to women.

Being a submitted wife does not mean you are a "dominated" wife. No Christian husband worth a hill of beans would actually seek to "dominate" his wife, but to love her. This is very clear in Scripture.

 

[Liza B.]

I have been doing a lot of reading lately about the last days and end times.

Some of the books and articles that I have read point out that Christians are divorcing at the same rate as non-Christians. I have difficulty comprehending such a thing. I grew up at a time when I cannot remember one single Christian divorcing. I can't remember many non-Christians divorcing.

My wife and I have been married for 48 years and although we have been through some difficult times, divorcing was never an option.

When we got married we vowed unto death us do part. Whenever we have been through difficult times and it would be very easy to throw in the towel and divorce, I am always reminded of my vow.

If we have not died and our marriage has not died then divorce is not an option and if our marriage has not died and it hasn't not whilst we have breath as God can solve any problem.

I admit we have been very fortunate as we have not been unfaithful to each other. I have not beaten my wife....once or anything like that, but we are not perfect and like most marriages, it needs working on. When you stop working on it you tend to throw in the towel and take the easy road and divorce.

So the question is, how on earth can you be an example to the non-believer if you have been divorced? Doesn't your divorce queer the pitch for every believer?

I cannot and will not judge individual marriages, but as a whole, divorce has been devastating to society and the church, absolutely. It's a shame especially in the church.

 

[Brightmoon]

a man would have to treat me like an adult , period. I’m not even going to pretend that submissive behavior by women is considerate behavior. Maybe you accepted that type of newspeak because your husband is actually an adult but a lot of men see that as an excuse to bully or devalue !

 

[Liza B.]

a man would have to treat me like an adult , period. I’m not even going to pretend that submissive behavior by women is considerate behavior. Maybe you accepted that type of newspeak because your husband is actually an adult but a lot of men see that as an excuse to bully or devalue !

Why would a mature Christian man marry a woman he doesn't see as an adult? I mean this woman is going to bear and be integral in raising his children. And why would a mature woman even enter INTO such a marriage?

It seems to me you don't understand much about submitted Christian marriage, to be honest.

 

[Liza B.]

a man would have to treat me like an adult , period. I’m not even going to pretend that submissive behavior by women is considerate behavior. Maybe you accepted that type of newspeak because your husband is actually an adult but a lot of men see that as an excuse to bully or devalue !

I would love to hear from you what you think this "submissive behavior" entails.

 

[Zoii]

According to scripture, the only reason you can divorce is adultery. If there is an abusive relationship, the church should have stepped in a long time ago and endeavored to stop the relationship from getting this far.

I posted another thread highlighting a research synthesis of international research on the topic of domestic violence within Christian relationships.

Firstly it is at a prevalence consistent with general society. The concept of so-called male leadership has not fostered a more positive environment for women. On the contrary, the research found that when interviewed, men used religious language centred around submission to justify their violence towards their spouse. When the abused women were interviewed they used religious language to explain why they stayed longer in their marriage when compared to general society

Several factors correlated to higher rates of domestic violence within Christian marriages. They were:

• Closed conservative religious groups - denominations that cut themselves off from outside examination harboured higher rates of violence and also sexual misconduct.
• It was also found that very high rates of church attendance ie 5 times or more per week had higher levels of violence when compared to those attending once per week.

The issue is simple really. If the husband abuses his wife and children and is unwilling to reform, churches have no right to be encouraging the woman to stay and thus subjecting her and the children to further violence/abuse

 

[Liza B.]

I posted another thread highlighting a research synthesis of international research on the topic of domestic violence within Christian relationships.

Firstly it is at a prevalence consistent with general society. The concept of so-called male leadership has not fostered a more positive environment for women. On the contrary, the research found that when interviewed, men used religious language centred around submission to justify their violence towards their spouse. When the abused women were interviewed they used religious language to explain why they stayed longer in their marriage when compared to general society

Several factors correlated to higher rates of domestic violence within Christian marriages. They were:

• Closed conservative religious groups - denominations that cut themselves off from outside examination harboured higher rates of violence and also sexual misconduct.
• It was also found that very high rates of church attendance ie 5 times or more per week had higher levels of violence when compared to those attending once per week.

The issue is simple really. If the husband abuses his wife and children and is unwilling to reform, churches have no right to be encouraging the woman to stay and thus subjecting her and the children to further violence/abuse

Zoii, jerky men who want to abuse women will use anything they can to justify their abuse. It doesn't mean that what they're using is necessarily flawed. You especially need to look at the foundations of what they're using. The Bible very clearly says "Husbands, LOVE your wives as you love your own body". From Ephesians 5. So no man who is abusing his wife can properly do this under a Christian banner.

 

[Brightmoon]

Most women marry their best friends. Some watch them turn into immature bullies. I know that a lot of fundie churches encourage that behavior by telling the wife that she’s wrong to argue with him and that she has to obey a husband even if he acts like a selfish fool. My church specifically doesn’t do that!

 

[Brightmoon]

There are also other ways that women get devaluation by the Church. Telling women that because they’re women that they can’t hold higher offices in the church or preach to men supposedly because of Eve. . Telling women that painful childbirth is a curse. ( as a person with a biology degree I can tell you that birth in any mammal with a eutherian uterus is painful because most mammals have big brains) . Ju

Bronze Age men treated their wives like property and property can’t just get up and leave . So no divorce unless the thinks she cheated. Don’t even think the man got divorced because he was the cheater

 

[Blade]

If one is standing on the out side ..duh the answer would seem very simple. We do tend to forget our thoughts to God are the same as if we really did it..in some areas. I mean.. I have never been with another woman.. been married over 30+ years. This is a truth yet a lie. I have had thoughts.. to my Father be the woman was real or made up.. I cheated on my wife. Be it stealing.. harming someone.. just the thought.. to my Father would be the same as doing it.

And it ALWAYS in a marriage takes two. If my wife wanted to leave.. I can not make her stay..its her free choice. We in this world treat some SINS as if there are awful. Yet that AWFUL SIN that might take a life.. is not greater then that seemly tiny little lie we just told .. to our Father.. He hates SIN period. Sin this this world can have a greater cost. But to our Father there is no OK sin and ooh DONT do that other sin!

Its... do you show love mercy grace forgiveness...THAT shows the world Christ is REAL! Not the sinlessness.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I did not say marriage is for everyone. And yes divorce is allowed in New Testament scripture but not as the preferred option.

But it doesn't alter the fact that when I was growing up, I did not know of one single Christian couple who divorced. That tells me the parameters have changed for Christians today and marriage is no longer sacred. if it was, you would fight like hell to keep it intact.

Yahweh's Word never changed - men and women did.
Yahweh still hates divorce.

Will He give in to (or change for) the men and the women who don't agree with Him ? (I don't think so.) He covers this all in His Word. Since His Word is not the Standard, few Keep and Honor His Word any more - few know it or hear it.

 

[Zoii]

Zoii, jerky men who want to abuse women will use anything they can to justify their abuse. It doesn't mean that what they're using is necessarily flawed. You especially need to look at the foundations of what they're using. The Bible very clearly says "Husbands, LOVE your wives as you love your own body". From Ephesians 5. So no man who is abusing his wife can properly do this under a Christian banner.

Ive read your posts Liz and it sounds like you have a balanced and harmonious marriage You and your husband should be congratulated - so sincerely well done to the both of you

However the topic centres on divorce so obviously the target cohort is a relationship that is unhealthy - certainly unlike yours. Where the degree of disharmony reflects statements that @Brightmoon has made - ie domestic abuse/violence; Would you still recommend a woman to stay in such a scenario?

I know I'm just 17 but I have had a lot to do with this topic. I volunteer at a women's refuge a few hrs a week (nothing important just a little cleaning and showing new women around). Liz their situation is always extreme. No-one leaves their home with their kids to hide in a shelter unless their ongoing contact with their husband will result in serious physical harm or death.

I believe any suggestion from a church that the wife should return to her husband in such circumstances is criminally negligent. There's never been a test case on this in Australia but with the rates of DV in western nations rising year on year, such a test case will surely arise if churches don't take this type of situation seriously.

Now if you can acknowledge that - then divorce is the logical next step so that assets can be divided, child access with consideration to the safety of the children needs to be reviewed; and then both parties can get on with their lives. Make no mistake Liz, the rates of this level of abuse occurs within christian marriages at the same rate that exists within the general public. By and large this unfortunately isn't something that is discussed within the church itself, which is a shame. It would be great to see good people like you and your husband discussing whats unacceptable within a marriage and making it known that violence/abuse towards a spouse isn't acceptable, and that the abuser will be brought to account by the church, and if the abuser is violent then his butt will dragged to the police. I'd also just once like to hear the topic brought up in a sermon.

EDIT: I just remembered that the Anglican church recently published this so obviously things are set to change in that denomination in Australia with respect to DV.
http://www.melbourneanglican.org.au...elationships-manual-and-tool-kit-Feb-2012.pdf

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It may be a shock to find out
that lawyers love divorce. (the money they make no matter if it goes through or not, but especially when it does).

Likewise, a sadly surprising number of pastors, and other so-called "Christian" 'counselors
also make quite a living ("tidy sum") because of divorce --- the system politic, and religious, and social,
has gone that direction full-force in many places and ways
but
often with the hypocrisy, sometimes hidden sometimes not but often known, of "pretending" to be "against" divorce since of course that is the thing Godly "Upright" men must do to keep up their image... ... ...

It was known decade(s) ago that counselors including pastors and lawyers, Christian or not, practically all give women
the same advice (this might have changed in the last ten years of course, or in some places)
>>> Counselor: "So , you want help?"
"Okay, we can counsel you and your spouse if you both are willing.
If your spouse is not willing, we can counsel you AND provide MONEY for food, clothes, child care, transportation, housing, medical, education, and (of course) sike-iatric help..... i.e. ALL THAT your spouse WOULD have provided or been responsible for if you stay,
we will provide it ALL, as long as you provide us good reason to.
Don't worry, we know everything you need to say to be eligible for ALL this financial and legal and housing and medical and etc etc etc ALL the assistance you need to live .... by the book, we have it down. (of course, they "ACT" professional and as if they are being honest and forthright.....

BUT , if you don't want to or cannot make a statement that we say is needed for all the assistance,
or if you don't want to pursue a separation/ divorce legally,
THEN
all we are authorized to help you is counseling with no money, no medical care, no housing assistance, no legal assistance, no child care (maybe some), no education, etc etc etc
because it is not funded unless you meet the 'guidelines' we have to operate by......

BUT, YOU MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND, and do not let ALL THE ASSISTANCE and ALL THE MONEY and ALL THE HELP we can offer you if you leave your spouse ,
do not all that affect YOUR DECISION - IT MUST BE YOUR decision, we cannot tell you what to choose or do.

This was or is so common for so many decades in so many places that women and men could be hard-pressed to find an honest counselor anywhere, including thru churches (so-called).

 

[Paidiske]

jeff, honestly, that's just sheer misrepresentation.

First, I don't know a single pastor anywhere who makes money from divorces (how is that supposed to work, anyway?)

Second, while there is often material support offered to people - especially those looking to leave abusive situations, and rightly so - the way you've scripted the above makes it sound as if that material support is offered conditionally on a particular course of action, which is just not true.

It is true that often we have a good idea of what services are available to refer people to, and pretty much all of them come with restrictions, but we don't create those restrictions, and they're often a source of intense frustration. (You live in the wrong suburb? No food parcel for you! Insane).

You've also made it sound as if there is no real support for people seeking to strengthen their marriages, which is also just not true.

But until you've been the person trying to help someone find emergency accommodation (ie. a bed for the night so they don't have to sleep rough), and done that over and over for dozens of people, it can be hard to get your head around how the systems really work, and how churches can try to help people navigate them appropriately.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sadly, no. It is directly from seeing (between about 30 years ago and 15 years ago most consciously(aware of it directly) , and casually for years before that and since then as well) all that I posted about spoken about actually quite openly and rather without any shame or remorse or as if it was 'wrong'.

The misrepresentation was found consistently in the ones claiming to be there for the men or the women or the children ,
AS IF objectively, but clearly never (sorry, rarely) so.

Openly and publicly they of course denied their complicity , as you deny it now for them,
but the more anyone looks into it without prejudice, the more they find, Yahweh Willing, all that I posted is actually conservative.

Also, the state of things being so horrible, and as stated, it is all in perfect harmony with all of God's Word, especially Galatians and Ephesians and Revelation.

jeff, honestly, that's just sheer misrepresentation.

First, I don't know a single pastor anywhere who makes money from divorces (how is that supposed to work, anyway?)

Second, while there is often material support offered to people - especially those looking to leave abusive situations, and rightly so - the way you've scripted the above makes it sound as if that material support is offered conditionally on a particular course of action, which is just not true.

It is true that often we have a good idea of what services are available to refer people to, and pretty much all of them come with restrictions, but we don't create those restrictions, and they're often a source of intense frustration. (You live in the wrong suburb? No food parcel for you! Insane).

You've also made it sound as if there is no real support for people seeking to strengthen their marriages, which is also just not true.

But until you've been the person trying to help someone find emergency accommodation (ie. a bed for the night so they don't have to sleep rough), and done that over and over for dozens of people, it can be hard to get your head around how the systems really work, and how churches can try to help people navigate them appropriately.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

For those who are truthfully curious at least,
internet search (I just tried)
terms
< the system is stacked >
with various other as desired , such as moms, women, men, children included in the search with < the system is stacked >
turns up
way too many sites to read ! so pick and choose a few to "test"...

The Truth is painful for those who trusted the world before.

Oh, there are some/ a few/ truthful honest right helpers out there for parents, families, moms and dads and children
(and they are USUALLY/ OFTEN
************************F R E E *****************
if you can find them)

But "legally", (another term to add to the search
< the system is stacked legally >
to find out what none of them wants anyone to know (give or take some)

 

[Paidiske]

Sounds like you've found a bunch of MRA propaganda, jeff.

 

[Zoii]

It may be a shock to find out
that lawyers love divorce. (the money they make no matter if it goes through or not, but especially when it does).

Likewise, a sadly surprising number of pastors, and other so-called "Christian" 'counselors
also make quite a living ("tidy sum") because of divorce --- the system politic, and religious, and social,
has gone that direction full-force in many places and ways
but
often with the hypocrisy, sometimes hidden sometimes not but often known, of "pretending" to be "against" divorce since of course that is the thing Godly "Upright" men must do to keep up their image... ... ...

It was known decade(s) ago that counselors including pastors and lawyers, Christian or not, practically all give women
the same advice (this might have changed in the last ten years of course, or in some places)
>>> Counselor: "So , you want help?"
"Okay, we can counsel you and your spouse if you both are willing.
If your spouse is not willing, we can counsel you AND provide MONEY for food, clothes, child care, transportation, housing, medical, education, and (of course) sike-iatric help..... i.e. ALL THAT your spouse WOULD have provided or been responsible for if you stay,
we will provide it ALL, as long as you provide us good reason to.
Don't worry, we know everything you need to say to be eligible for ALL this financial and legal and housing and medical and etc etc etc ALL the assistance you need to live .... by the book, we have it down. (of course, they "ACT" professional and as if they are being honest and forthright.....

BUT , if you don't want to or cannot make a statement that we say is needed for all the assistance,
or if you don't want to pursue a separation/ divorce legally,
THEN
all we are authorized to help you is counseling with no money, no medical care, no housing assistance, no legal assistance, no child care (maybe some), no education, etc etc etc
because it is not funded unless you meet the 'guidelines' we have to operate by......

BUT, YOU MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND, and do not let ALL THE ASSISTANCE and ALL THE MONEY and ALL THE HELP we can offer you if you leave your spouse ,
do not all that affect YOUR DECISION - IT MUST BE YOUR decision, we cannot tell you what to choose or do.

This was or is so common for so many decades in so many places that women and men could be hard-pressed to find an honest counselor anywhere, including thru churches (so-called).

Jeff
Sir that is just a pile of crap. Happy to provide details of why that's so but I fear you've filled your head with some negative ideas and so the energy I might put into detail will be wasted oxygen
Hence my summary - crap!

 

[Liza B.]

Ive read your posts Liz and it sounds like you have a balanced and harmonious marriage You and your husband should be congratulated - so sincerely well done to the both of you

However the topic centres on divorce so obviously the target cohort is a relationship that is unhealthy - certainly unlike yours. Where the degree of disharmony reflects statements that @Brightmoon has made - ie domestic abuse/violence; Would you still recommend a woman to stay in such a scenario?

I know I'm just 17 but I have had a lot to do with this topic. I volunteer at a women's refuge a few hrs a week (nothing important just a little cleaning and showing new women around). Liz their situation is always extreme. No-one leaves their home with their kids to hide in a shelter unless their ongoing contact with their husband will result in serious physical harm or death.

I believe any suggestion from a church that the wife should return to her husband in such circumstances is criminally negligent. There's never been a test case on this in Australia but with the rates of DV in western nations rising year on year, such a test case will surely arise if churches don't take this type of situation seriously.

Now if you can acknowledge that - then divorce is the logical next step so that assets can be divided, child access with consideration to the safety of the children needs to be reviewed; and then both parties can get on with their lives. Make no mistake Liz, the rates of this level of abuse occurs within christian marriages at the same rate that exists within the general public. By and large this unfortunately isn't something that is discussed within the church itself, which is a shame. It would be great to see good people like you and your husband discussing whats unacceptable within a marriage and making it known that violence/abuse towards a spouse isn't acceptable, and that the abuser will be brought to account by the church, and if the abuser is violent then his butt will dragged to the police. I'd also just once like to hear the topic brought up in a sermon.

EDIT: I just remembered that the Anglican church recently published this so obviously things are set to change in that denomination in Australia with respect to DV.
http://www.melbourneanglican.org.au/ServingCommunity/src/Prevention of Violence Against Women/Promoting-equal-and-respectful-relationships-manual-and-tool-kit-Feb-2012.pdf

Zoii, I hope you will take the time to read all this....

Everything is wrong here--the whole thing is upside down. It's not your fault, I'm not saying that to you, Zoii. It comes from a culture that glances at the Bible but doesn't study the Bible, doesn't come to church to really learn the Bible.

Well, my church does, thank the Good Lord in heaven. So, you are taking your understanding from what you have soaked up in the world, and you are not to be blamed for that. So did I used to.

In short, in the world the woman has all the blame, responsibility, onus, labor, etc. The woman is lesser. The woman is to submit and the man can do whatever. That's the tinge on the entire thing. The man is the leader and the shine on that is "king of the castle". Did I hit that pretty well?

That's the way the culture understands it, and it is dead wrong.

Here is what the Bible says in Ephesians 5:

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing5:26 Or having cleansed her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”5:31 Gen. 2:24 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Notice that the instructions to the wife are to "submit" and RESPECT (so important), and to the husband they are much longer: love her as you love YOUR OWN BODY. But wait, there's more. From 1 Peter 3, verses 1 and 2:

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, respectful and pure conduct.

IOW a godly wife may win her husband to God with respectful and pure conduct. It is very important to a man that his wife is respectful, which is really the biggest part of "submission" to his leadership.

Look further into 1 Peter 3 for a man's responsibility however. The leader has the greater part of the responsibility, always. It's not like the culture sells it. It's not like if she's not "submissive", he gets to whip her up into shape, literally or figurative. Or demean her, cheat on her, etc. Read on:

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

That's it then. You don't honor your wife, your very prayers are hindered. That's how caught up it all is in spirituality. And note this is for the MAN, not the woman. That's how his leadership is all caught up in how he treats his wife.

So yes. Biblical churches talk about marriage. From the pulpit. All the time. Promote healthy marriage and pray over marriage and take care of unhealthy situations. Churches who stray far from the Bible probably have no idea what they're doing--I don't know. I don't stay in them long, when I find them, a long time ago when we were looking for a Biblical church.

A Christian submitted marriage is actually a wonderful thing, and you're right--my husband and I are very happy in ours, going on 24 years now. However, the culture recoils at the very thought of it. Why would I be "submitted"? Ewwwwwwwwww lol

But it works. Of course it does. The woman gets what she needs and longs for and so does the man. Of course we do. Because God made us, and He knows best. It really is that simple.