Divorce

PrincetonGuy

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Hum. What do you think about 1 Timothy 5:9-16?

ESV: "Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work. But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander. For some have already strayed after Satan. If any believing woman has relatives who are widows, let her care for them. Let the church not be burdened, so that it may care for those who are truly widows."

1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
(NASB, 1995)
 
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dies-l

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dies-l, Matthew 19, specifically Jesus's own words tell us that:

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

There are no other exceptions in this. Paul tells us not to be yoked with unbelievers, so marriage to one should never be an issue in the first place. Therefore, it is not just divorce that is the resounding issue, but why you get divorced.

What about a woman who divorces her husband? What did Jesus have to say about that?
 
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98cwitr

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...'til death do us part...that's in the vow, right? ;)

What about a woman who divorces her husband? What did Jesus have to say about that?

Mark 10:12: "And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
 
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dies-l

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...'til death do us part...that's in the vow, right? ;)

Just to make sure that we are on the same page: I agree that divorce is always surrounded by sin. The issue is whether God's grace extends to divorced and remarried people. The Scripture cited says that it is adultery when a man divorces his wife and remarries. What does it say in Scripture about when a woman divorces her husband and remarries or if her husband remarries?
 
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98cwitr

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see edit, here's my point (and yes, we both agree that it is surrounded by sin, but so is remarriage as well): You make a vow to God and to your spouse that you will love, honor, and cherish each other (for these are the bonds of marriage) so long as you both shall live...right? Well at what point is it ok to break that vow? Well, according to Scripture, adultery is the only exception to that rule...period.
 
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dies-l

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see edit, here's my point (and yes, we both agree that it is surrounded by sin, but so is remarriage as well): You make a vow to God and to your spouse that you will love, honor, and cherish each other (for these are the bonds of marriage) so long as you both shall live...right? Well at what point is it ok to break that vow? Well, according to Scripture, adultery is the only exception to that rule...period.

That is an interpretation of Scripture, and I believe a poor one at that. With the exception of the passage in Mark, Jesus always spoke in the context of a husband ditching his wife. He was speaking into a context in which a divorced woman had virtually no rights and no means of supporting herself, in which a divorced man suffered virtually no societal ill-effects from the divorce, and in which most people (men at least) believed that there was nothing wrong with this. Jesus spoke out against this system, by pointing out the consequences of the system (women left unable to fend for themselves and left to resort to prostitution or sexual immorality to support themselves). I don't see that Jesus was making a new moral pronouncement, but rather explaining the social realities of his day.

How we apply this Scripture in a modern context is another issue. Certainly, I agree with you that if you make a vow, you have a moral obligation to keep it. Thus, when you choose to break the vow, you are sinning. Likewise, when you enter into a vow that you are unprepared or unable to keep, you are sinning. When you make decisions that will inevitably harm your marriage, you are sinning. When you mistreat your spouse, you are sinning.

But, unfortunately, sometimes divorce happens. Sometimes, it happens because of adultery. Sometimes it happens to somebody because of the choice of their spouse (such as when a spouse files for or demands a divorce). Sometimes, it is a necessary step to protect one's life. In cases like these, I can't sign on the legalistic misapplication of Scripture that would deny God's grace to people in these types of situations who end up in second marriages.
 
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98cwitr

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I've met several, including my aunt and uncle. It doesn't mean you're not going to fight, or get frustrated, angry, insecure, or want to get a divorce...but when love continuously concurs all of those struggles then the vows are made true to their word. Do you feel you have kept your vows?
 
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dies-l

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I've met several, including my aunt and uncle.

Seriously, you don't know this to be true. You can only assume this to be true based on your own observation. Likewise, I cannot say with certainty that you are wrong. I can say, however, that if you are right, then your aunt and uncle are the exceptions to Romans 3:23, which I doubt.

It doesn't mean you're not going to fight, or get frustrated, angry, insecure, or want to get a divorce...

I disagree. Traditionally wedding vows include some promise of unconditional love. According to Scripture, love is patient, kind, not envious or boastful, not rude or self-seeking, not easily angered, and keeps no record of wrongs. In a relationship where both parties love like this, there would be no reason to fight or to become angry or insecure. So, these things all point to a marriage that falls short of the biblical ideal and the wedding vows.

Furthermore, biblically speaking, a husband is commanded to love his wife as Christ loved the Church and a wife is commanded to submit to her husband as unto the Lord. In a marriage where both parties live up to this, there would be no room for fighting, arguing, and insecurity. Thus, these traits in a marriage are evidence, if not complete proof, of a marriage that falls short of the standard and the vows.

Do you feel you have kept your vows?

Like everyone, I have fallen short in all areas of my life, including my marriages.
 
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98cwitr

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Seriously, you don't know this to be true. You can only assume this to be true based on your own observation. Likewise, I cannot say with certainty that you are wrong. I can say, however, that if you are right, then your aunt and uncle are the exceptions to Romans 3:23, which I doubt.



I disagree. Traditionally wedding vows include some promise of unconditional love. According to Scripture, love is patient, kind, not envious or boastful, not rude or self-seeking, not easily angered, and keeps no record of wrongs. In a relationship where both parties love like this, there would be no reason to fight or to become angry or insecure. So, these things all point to a marriage that falls short of the biblical ideal and the wedding vows.

Furthermore, biblically speaking, a husband is commanded to love his wife as Christ loved the Church and a wife is commanded to submit to her husband as unto the Lord. In a marriage where both parties live up to this, there would be no room for fighting, arguing, and insecurity. Thus, these traits in a marriage are evidence, if not complete proof, of a marriage that falls short of the standard and the vows.



Like everyone, I have fallen short in all areas of my life, including my marriages.

hey, don't get 1 Cor. wrong, let's examine the attributes of real love. First off, there is no such vow as love being unconditional, because unconditional love does not exist, there are always conditions. Ok, with that said:


love is patient,

"...an ability or willingness to suppress restlessness or annoyance when confronted with delay." This means if we love someone, we will possess a sense and ability to face ongoing problems without turning away from them...ie: not getting a divorce when you are going through marital turmoil.

kind,

"of a good or benevolent nature or disposition" For those that we love, we have their best interests in mind and treat them with respect and dignity.

not envious or boastful,

"not speaking with exaggeration and excessive pride; not possessing a feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, success, possessions"

This goes along with the "what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine, mind, body, and heart." You are not jealous of your spouse's position in society, belongings, or who they are as a person.

not rude or self-seeking,

You are not in the marriage to escape anything, you are not with that person to fulfill any personal desires or obligations. You are with that person because there is a mutual, intimate, and spiritual bond between the both of you.

not easily angered,

It DOES NOT say that love does not get angered, but not easily angered. This goes hand and hand with the idea of patience.

keeps no record of wrongs

This is the purity of forgiveness. Once you have forgiven your spouse for a wrong doing, it should never be an issue again without re-occurrence.

This is my understanding of love in its purest form, the form that God has for His children. Let's not have a debate of unconditional love in this thread, please. If you wish to do so, please create a new thread or PM me.

as far as my aunt and uncle are concerned, it is not only through observation that I know this, it is in their faith in God, in their faith in each other, and via verbal communication that I know this to be true.
 
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dies-l

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hey, don't get 1 Cor. wrong, let's examine the attributes of real love. First off, there is no such vow as love being unconditional, because unconditional love does not exist, there are always conditions. Ok, with that said:


love is patient,

"...an ability or willingness to suppress restlessness or annoyance when confronted with delay." This means if we love someone, we will possess a sense and ability to face ongoing problems without turning away from them...ie: not getting a divorce when you are going through marital turmoil.

kind,

"of a good or benevolent nature or disposition" For those that we love, we have their best interests in mind and treat them with respect and dignity.

not envious or boastful,

"not speaking with exaggeration and excessive pride; not possessing a feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, success, possessions"

This goes along with the "what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine, mind, body, and heart." You are not jealous of your spouse's position in society, belongings, or who they are as a person.

not rude or self-seeking,

You are not in the marriage to escape anything, you are not with that person to fulfill any personal desires or obligations. You are with that person because there is a mutual, intimate, and spiritual bond between the both of you.

not easily angered,

It DOES NOT say that love does not get angered, but not easily angered. This goes hand and hand with the idea of patience.

keeps no record of wrongs

This is the purity of forgiveness. Once you have forgiven your spouse for a wrong doing, it should never be an issue again without re-occurrence.

This is my understanding of love in its purest form, the form that God has for His children. Let's not have a debate of unconditional love in this thread, please. If you wish to do so, please create a new thread or PM me.

My point remains that no married couple on the face of the Earth, or at least none that I have seen, keeps their vows perfectly. So, to say that one's inability to keep his or wedding vows perfectly is either a valid reason for divorce or a valid basis to condemn that person when his or her marriage falls apart is legalistic and willfully ignorant of reality.

as far as my aunt and uncle are concerned, it is not only through observation that I know this, it is in their faith in God, in their faith in each other, and via verbal communication that I know this to be true.


I am sure they are wonderful people and you are blessed to have them as role models. I don't know them, however, so I cannot really say anymore about it without taking a risk of defaming them.
 
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98cwitr

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My point remains that no married couple on the face of the Earth, or at least none that I have seen, keeps their vows perfectly. So, to say that one's inability to keep his or wedding vows perfectly is either a valid reason for divorce or a valid basis to condemn that person when his or her marriage falls apart is legalistic and willfully ignorant of reality.

I am sure they are wonderful people and you are blessed to have them as role models. I don't know them, however, so I cannot really say anymore about it without taking a risk of defaming them.

Listen, the ONLY valid reason for a divorce is adultery...that's it. I cannot make this point any more clear.
 
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dies-l

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Listen, the ONLY valid reason for a divorce is adultery...that's it. I cannot make this point any more clear.

I understand clearly what you believe on this point, but as I have already stated I believe that that is based on a misapplication and misinterpretation of Scripture. I would argue that there is no such thing as a "valid" divorce (in the sense that it is not the fruit of human sinfulness). However, what I believe you are stating is that anyone who remarries after a divorce that was not filed on the basis of adultery is living in a continual state of sin with their new spouse. If this is a fair statement of what you believe on the matter, then I believe that you are wrong and that you are misunderstanding New Testament teaching on both the issue in question (divorce and remarriage) and the question human sin and God's grace.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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But, unfortunately, sometimes divorce happens. Sometimes, it happens because of adultery. Sometimes it happens to somebody because of the choice of their spouse (such as when a spouse files for or demands a divorce). Sometimes, it is a necessary step to protect one's life. In cases like these, I can't sign on the legalistic misapplication of Scripture that would deny God's grace to people in these types of situations who end up in second marriages.

Yes, divorces does occur, and God gives the parties to the divorce the grace to remain single so that they do not commit adultery. God never gives anyone the grace to defy Him and commit sin! When a man and a woman marry each other, they become one flesh until one of them dies.

Matt. 19:3. Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”
4. And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5. and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6. “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

Mark 10:2. Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife.
3. And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”
4. They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.”
5. But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
6. “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
7. “FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
8. AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9. “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
10. In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
11. And He *said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”

Luke 16:18. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”

Rom. 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
(NASB, 1995)
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I understand clearly what you believe on this point, but as I have already stated I believe that that is based on a misapplication and misinterpretation of Scripture. I would argue that there is no such thing as a "valid" divorce (in the sense that it is not the fruit of human sinfulness). However, what I believe you are stating is that anyone who remarries after a divorce that was not filed on the basis of adultery is living in a continual state of sin with their new spouse. If this is a fair statement of what you believe on the matter, then I believe that you are wrong and that you are misunderstanding New Testament teaching on both the issue in question (divorce and remarriage) and the question human sin and God's grace.

Luke 16:18. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.” (NASB, 1995)

These two statements from the mouth of Jesus could not possibly be more clear. A divorce does NOT break a marriage bond and the couple remains one flesh. If either party to the divorce engages in a sexual act with another partner, adultery occurs; and it occurs every time that either party to the divorce engages in a sexual act with another partner. That is what the Bible says. Many of today’s celebrity preachers and political correctness teach other doctrines.

Although we find an abundance of manuscript variations in Matt. 19:9 where the highly dubious exception clause occurs, we do not find these variations in Luke 16:18, and Luke is explicitly clear,

Luke 16:18. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.” (NASB, 1995)
 
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dies-l

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Yes, divorces does occur, and God gives the parties to the divorce the grace to remain single so that they do not commit adultery. God never gives anyone the grace to defy Him and commit sin! When a man and a woman marry each other, they become one flesh until one of them dies.

Matt. 19:3. Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”
4. And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5. and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6. “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

Mark 10:2. Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife.
3. And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”
4. They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.”
5. But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
6. “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
7. “FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
8. AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9. “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
10. In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
11. And He *said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”

Luke 16:18. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”

Rom. 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
(NASB, 1995)

You can keep quoting the same Scriptures back to me, but the point remains that you are not interpreting consistently with their context. The point is that Jesus' teaching on this is not nearly as clear as you seem to think it is, and my perspective on this point I have already explained. If you care to read it and address it, we can discuss, but there is no meaningful conversation to be had if you are to merely repeat the same accusations about Scripture being wrong and about Jesus' position "clearly" agreeing with yours.

But, for the sake of argument, let's accept your legalism as biblical and address the following questions:

FTR, when do believe a marriage occurs (i.e., when do man and woman become one flesh)? When a man and woman have sex for the first time (arguably, Paul's view)? When the man and the woman exchange vows (the modern view)? Or when when the man and woman have sex after having exchanged vows (an variation on the modern view)?

Also, what do you recommend for the person who divorced and remarried before becoming a Christian and who wants to do right? Suppose, for the sake of argument, that this person did not have children with the first, but did with second? Is that person then obligated to divorce his or new spouse in order to seek reconciliation with the first?
 
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nobdysfool

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One question: Is adultery an unforgivable sin?

I've heard of teaching which encourages those who have divorced and remarried to divorce their new partner and seek reconciliation with their first spouse. A little thought should show the tremendous upheaval that would cause, to children of second marriages, families, and the lives of spouses who did not divorce anyone when they married a divorced person. Where does that leave them? Such teaching has its roots in blind legalism, and does serious damage to people.

I am divorced and remarried myself. I waited 14 years between my divorce and remarriage, while my ex-wife waited 13 months. Reconciliation? Not even remotely possible, nor would I want to be reconciled to her. She's not even the same person I married, psychologically, and we have about as much in common as a whale and a tap dancer, with the sole exception of our 3 grown children, and our grandkids.
 
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