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Thanks for your take on it KCKid.
Similarly I have no issue with remarriage etc, but scripture does. Hence why I am wondering how modern Christian churches justify same.
Yes that is true, but you said people had access to God's saving grace before Christ died. That is what is incorrect. Original sin damaged our state with God and it was only Christ who restored God's grace to us. This is very basic elementary theology here.
What in heck is 'basic elementary theology'? My 'theology' disagrees with yours. Did you know that Noah found grace in the eyes of God (Genesis 6:8)? So did Joseph (Genesis 39:4) as well as oodles of other folks in the OT. Grace abounds for the individual in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Judges, Ruth, 1-2 Samuel, Ezra, Esther, Psalms, Proverbs, Jeremiah, and Zechariah.
If people were not 'saved' by grace then what were they 'saved' by? Or, was no one 'saved' prior to Jesus?
Some (a few) churches DO condemn remarriage but most just seem to turn a blind eye. I wouldn't mind that if they were just as willing to turn a blind eye to homosexuality.
But, you're right. Scripturally speaking remarriage can't be justified. It's become so common place within Christian circles that most churches either put the issue into the 'too hard' basket or otherwise feign ignorance.
Hi Creed,
What is your scriptural interpretation regarding divorce and remarriage?
KCKID said:What in heck is 'basic elementary theology'? My 'theology' disagrees with yours. Did you know that Noah found grace in the eyes of God (Genesis 6:8)? So did Joseph (Genesis 39:4) as well as oodles of other folks in the OT. Grace abounds for the individual in
KCKID said:Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Judges, Ruth, 1-2 Samuel, Ezra, Esther, Psalms, Proverbs, Jeremiah, and Zechariah.
KCKID said:If people were not 'saved' by grace then what were they 'saved' by? Or, was no one 'saved' prior to Jesus?
CreedIsChrist said:Your opinion is not "theology", its just personal opinion and nothing else. And my theology isn't "mine".
CreedIsChrist said:Im not talking about the prophets, Im talking about the general state of man after the fall. The prophets were endowed with a special reward from God. But humankind did not posses grace because they had the stain of sin. It only only until Christ that grace became universally available to people who were born again.
CreedIsChrist said:And no one was saved until Christ came to rid the world from Sin.
CreedIsChrist said:Even the prophets waited for the time of the messiah to come. If you studied about Abrahams bosom you would know where people went after they died in OT times.
KCKID said:Some (a few) churches DO condemn remarriage but most just seem to turn a blind eye. I wouldn't mind that if they were just as willing to turn a blind eye to homosexuality.
KCKID said:But, you're right. Scripturally speaking remarriage can't be justified. It's become so common place within Christian circles that most churches either put the issue into the 'too hard' basket or otherwise feign ignorance.
CreedIsChrist said:ugg, and yet you proceed to tell me what is "unscriptual"?
CreedIsChrist said:You said you don't even believe scipture to be inspired. And if that is true you are in no place to tell others what is unscriptural when you yourself don't even believe it. Yet you say these things that are so contrary to scripture even a 4 year old would understand.
Let's forget about that little bit from Deut, huh?
Oh, I HAVE studied Abraham's Bosom ...it's a Hebrew FABLE. Jesus used this fable as an illustration during one of His parables which was aimed at the Pharisees. And, contrary to popular Christian belief, the parable was NOT concerning the state of the dead. I would suggest that YOU read up on the actual fable and also grasp the REAL meaning behind Jesus' parable.
Lets not. Take your choice Rudolph - Deut 2:19 & 29; also 24:1-3. ( I assume that 2:29 is the verse to which you are referring).
Thanks for your reply Creed.
Can you tell me how we should deal with those who are divorced and remarried when it comes to Church? Would you cinsider an act of repentance to withdraw from the second marriage and abstain for the rest of one's days, or failing that removal from church for defilement of the institution of marriage? Or would you have a more liberal approach?
How would you use scripture to justify the position?
Well if you see in the Gospel, Jesus tells us that it was written because of the hardness of the Jews hearts
And tell me, oh wise one, why would Jesus use FABLES if he himself is truth personified? Talk about a contradiction in terms.
According to 1st century Jewish beliefs, the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place, the sheol of the Old Testament, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22, in the Gr. 16:23). Here, the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the wicked were consigned
The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29-30; 18:9ff, Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate)- the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of "Paradise" (cf. Luke 23:43) or "the Bosom of Abraham" (Luke 16:22-23).
Here read Josephus on the state of the dead and what the Jews really believed. He was a jewish historian who knew the tradition inside and out during the time of Christ. It was not a fable obviously..We see that before Christ came that the Just went to Abrahams Bosom, while the evil went to a temporary place in Hell. But they did not reach actual heaven because Christ had not came yet. This is why it talks in the epistle of Peter about Christ preaching to the "spirits in prison who sinned in the aforetime".
AN EXTRACT OUT OF JOSEPHUS'S DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES
By Flavius Josephus
Translated by William Whiston
1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.
2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.
3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.
5. This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies, which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish, and what is sown is indeed sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator, it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved, and mixed [with the earth]. So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to be destroyed any more. And to every body shall its own soul be restored. And when it hath clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery, but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it, with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, the same shall they be when they shall be faithfully judged.
6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment: and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: Concerning Whom We Have Elsewhere Given A More Particular Account, For The Sake Of Those Who Seek After Truth. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, Just Is Thy Judgment; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. But the just shall remember only their righteous actions, whereby they have attained the heavenly kingdom, in which there is no sleep, no sorrow, no corruption, no care, no night, no day measured by time, no sun driven in his course along the circle of heaven by necessity, and measuring out the bounds and conversions of the seasons, for the better illumination of the life of men; no moon decreasing and increasing, or introducing a variety of seasons, nor will she then moisten the earth; no burning sun, no Bear turning round [the pole], no Orion to rise, no wandering of innumerable stars. The earth will not then be difficult to be passed over, nor will it be hard to find out the court of paradise, nor will there be any fearful roaring of the sea, forbidding the passengers to walk on it; even that will be made easily passable to the just, though it will not be void of moisture. Heaven will not then be uninhabitable by men, and it will not be impossible to discover the way of ascending thither. The earth will not be uncultivated, nor require too much labor of men, but will bring forth its fruits of its own accord, and will be well adorned with them. There will be no more generations of wild beasts, nor will the substance of the rest of the animals shoot out any more; for it will not produce men, but the number of the righteous will continue, and never fail, together with righteous angels, and spirits [of God], and with his word, as a choir of righteous men and women that never grow old, and continue in an incorruptible state, singing hymns to God, who hath advanced them to that happiness, by the means of a regular institution of life; with whom the whole creation also will lift up a perpetual hymn from corruption, to incorruption, as glorified by a splendid and pure spirit. It will not then be restrained by a bond of necessity, but with a lively freedom shall offer up a voluntary hymn, and shall praise him that made them, together with the angels, and spirits, and men now freed from all bondage.
7. And now, if you Gentiles will be persuaded by these motives, and leave your vain imaginations about your pedigrees, and gaining of riches, and philosophy, and will not spend your time about subtleties of words, and thereby lead your minds into error, and if you will apply your ears to the hearing of the inspired prophets, the interpreters both of God and of his word, and will believe in God, you shall both be partakers of these things, and obtain the good things that are to come; you shall see the ascent unto the immense heaven plainly, and that kingdom which is there. For what God hath now concealed in silence [will be then made manifest,] what neither eye hath seen, nor ear hath heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for them that love him.
8. In whatsoever ways I shall find you, in them shall I judge you entirely: so cries the End of all things. And he who hath at first lived a virtuous lift, but towards the latter end falls into vice, these labors by him before endured shall be altogether vain and unprofitable, even as in a play, brought to an ill catastrophe. Whosoever shall have lived wickedly and luxuriously may repent; however, there will be need of much time to conquer an evil habit, and even after repentance his whole life must be guarded with great care and diligence, after the manner of a body, which, after it hath been a long time afflicted with a distemper, requires a stricter diet and method of living; for though it may be possible, perhaps, to break off the chain of our irregular affections at once, yet our amendment cannot be secured without the grace of God, the prayers of good men, the help of the brethren, and our own sincere repentance and constant care. It is a good thing not to sin at all; it is also good, having sinned, to repent; as it is best to have health always, but it is a good thing to recover from a distemper. To God be glory and dominion for ever and ever Amen.
If you want more info also read tertullians "A treatise on the Soul" which goes into more detail on this issue.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0310.htm
I appreciate the hospital argument, but is there a direct biblical quote/verses for this position?
Creed: SO yes, it would be recommended that there be abstinence from second marriage, followed by repentence. People who are re-married shouldn't be kicked out of the church however, since the Church is a hospital for sinners. However they should not be involved in the eating of the Last Supper since one must have a clean conscious before they partake in it.
Reply: Hmmmm. Interesting take. Earlier inthe thread I put up the argument that those who remain remarried are in a 'state of adultery' and therefore not truly repentant hence removal from church was a possiblity if we take Paul's words to their extreme. It was pointed out that a 'state of adultery' was not necessarily a scriptural theory, but perhaps a man's logical response, thereby leavng a loophole for those in this position to stay in the church.
Indeed a good point was made that if you divorce a second time, you sin again. So the best situation would be to just remain remarried and not live as husband and wife/seperate.
On the other hand, by such logic remaining remarried, every act of congress with one's second/subsequent spouse becomes adultery. (Am I wrong?)
I note your point on not partaking in communion. Interesting angle. Do you have scripture to back this one up? (Just curious!)
If however a couple are remarried and say that they no longer have physical relations as a married couple, then one would assume that they should be allowed partake in communion again. (Not very realistic I know-but I'm trying to bring this to some form of logical conclusion).
If on the other hand thy continue as a married couple they are to be barred from the communion meal. This because as you say 'church is a hospital' - again no scriptural reference there (as with the 'state of adultery' arguement).
I suppose that raises the whole issue of either kicking people out of a church for not repenting or not leaving them recieve communion for the same reason. - Do you have a scriptural take on this one? Why one and not the other. I appreciate the hospital argument, but is there a direct biblical quote/verses for this position?
Except by fornication.
One must understand what fornication is. Fornication is sex before marriage or any other sexually immoral practice, but mainly sex before marriage. If Jesus had meant adultery, there is a word specifically meaning adultery that he could have used.
No, I believe he was restating the law of moses to them, that he shall not put away his wife unless she was found not to be a virgin at the consumation of the marriage. (we are no longer under the law of moses, btw).
Now, the NT only speaks of remarriage in any form but once, I believe he is speaking to christians, who act like christians, not just call themselves christians as many do, that they should not seek a divorce, and wives should not seperate from their husband (women could not divorce I believe).
I personally believe remarriage to be morally clear of sin in the case of adultery, abandonment, and abuse.
Marriage is not a religious institution and therefore is not yours to protect or otherwise.
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