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That's evading my question on a technicality. To fulfill He had to die.
Maybe we're talking past each other. Creation is through the 2nd person and reconciliation is through the 2nd person. If you are saying, given this kind of world that God has set up, then the incarnation (and all it entails), is essentially a part of that, you're still only saying "God has decided this is the way it should be." If you're saying God can only forgive if Christ dies, simpliciter, you're putting a necessity on God that simply is not there. Ultimately, all of this goes back to God's free choice. God could have created a radically different world so that redemption, if needed, might have looked radically different. Maybe that seems like a distinction without a difference, but it's not. God is free. God has chosen redemption through the incarnation, not due to necessity, but the divine will. If you want to say the divine will is necessitated by the divine will, you're simply saying God is free to be God, which is what I am saying lol.
That's making it a lot more complicated than my intent. If Jesus had not been willing
then God would have destroyed everyone.
You have just maintained that
Christ on the cross paid for the sin of unbelievers,
which are then paid for a second time in Gehenna,
by those same unbelievers.
You have just made God unjust in requiring double payment for the same sin,
or else maintained that Christ's payment was insufficient and required additional payment to complete it,
either way, thereby grievously polluting the gospel..
Unbelievers do not go to the Lake of Fire for their sins. Their sins will not even be mentioned at their judgment. Only their works will be searched.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the one of life. And the dead were judged out of the things having been written in the books, according to their works." Rev 2012They will be judged according to their works, not sins. Why?
One work will be searched for and not found. This one...
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Jn 6:27-29 - Salvation by having all sins paid for would be a cheap salvation.
Baloney. . .For it concentrates on the person, not the Lord.
Jesus' work of salvation itself does not depend on what anyone thinks of Christ.The real issue in salvation is what think ye of Christ? The rejection, or acceptance of the Lord is the real theme in salvation.
You're confused. . .we didn't make sin the "issue"--sinners are just fine with it. . .it is God who makes sin such a HUGE issue that his own Son must die to resolve the "issue."To make one's sins the issue?
The only kind that matters! The kind that saves your hide from unquenchable fire!When we did not choose to be born sinners? It was Adam's doing.
What kind of salvation would that be?
If you're referring to Adam, his guilt is imputed to mankind, not his sin. (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18)All our sins (and the penalty for being a sinner) Jesus bore on the Cross when He was forsaken by God.
By default, having ones personal sins imputed to someone would mean God would not even allow that man to exist.
So you agree God is unjust, in requiring the same sin be paid for twice, once by Jesus and again by the unbeliever in Gehenna?To avoid that? Jesus paid for all man's sins, so the real issue in salvation can be just like the angels faced..
Because his works manifest his unbelief.What do you think of the Lord God.. the Son of God?
That's why the unbeliever's sins will not be mentioned. Only his works.
One will work will go missing. That is why the unbeliever goes to the Lake of Fire.
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Make up your mind. . .you just said above that it was.Jn 6:27-28 - Our salvation cost the Lord with his blood ....
That was not a cheap salvation.
Salvation is not about having no sin imputed.Just having no sins imputed would not show any favor to God.
It's about more than just what we think, it's about who and what we believe on and trust for remission of our sin and granting of eternal life!Its what we think of the Son of God that is the vital importance.
There is no extinction of man nor his immortal spirit in the NT.Jesus died on the Cross so man could be spared from extinction,
What about the MAJOR "effect" of unforgiven sin--the unquenchable fire?so man could be given a chance to choose about God.
We who have entered regeneration now can secure
freedom from the "effects" of sin by means of the blood of Christ. (1 Jn 1:9)
You have provided no remedy for the condemnation into which all mankind is born (Romans 5:18) because of the guilt of Adam's transgression imputed to them (Romans 5:12-14).The blood of Christ saves us from our predicament of still being able to sin in our present body, until we become made whole in our glorious resurrection body. A glorious body just like the Lord's glorious body. Something infinitely far superior to what Adam had before he fell. For we will not be able to fall.
Why would that not also include mere justice? See, here's the thing (and maybe this is poorly stated, but: God is the default fact. He is altogether purity and justice. He cannot abide injustice, though he can put it into a time envelope and let it ripen. But in the end, it all must be put right. And there is only one way for that to happen —'balancing the scales' so to speak. Call it what you want, it must happen. And he is going to see to it that it does.Well, I could argue that point, too, but we're getting off topic. My point in the post you responded to is that the only kind of "punishment" that makes sense in relation to God is reformative punishment, i.e. punishment that restores, which might be painful for us but is good and needed.
Whoa, there, podna'!!!
That's easy for you to say, it was not your blood that was spilt!
Preach it! @Clare73 Amen, sister!Whoa, there, podna'!!!
That's easy for you to say, it was not your blood that was spilt!
Baloney. . .
Jesus' work of salvation itself does not depend on what anyone thinks of Christ.
It is 100% the effective work of God!
Its application to anyone's sin, however, is by faith in and trust on him and his atoning work.
You're confused. . .we didn't make sin the "issue"--sinners are just fine with it. . .it is God who makes sin such a HUGE issue that his own Son must die to resolve the "issue."
The only kind that matters! The kind that saves your hide from unquenchable fire!
And that would be the "kind of salvation" preached by the gospel and everywhere presented in the NT!
If you're referring to Adam, his guilt is imputed to mankind, not his sin. (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18)
So you agree God is unjust, in requiring the same sin be paid for twice, once by Jesus and again by the sinner?
Because his works manifest his unbelief.
Make up your mind. . .you just said above that it was.
Salvation is not about having no sin imputed.
Salvation is about having one's sin debt paid by Jesus Christ to save one from the penalty of non-payment; i.e., unquenchable fire.
It's about more than just what we think, it's about who and what we believe on and trust for remission of our sin and granting of eternal life!
There is no extinction of man nor his immortal spirit in the NT.
Jesus said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive, because God said to Moses long after they were dead, that he is (not "was") the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Mark 12:26-27)
Contrary to extinction, there is eternal life and eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).
What about the MAJOR effect of unforgiven sin--the unquenchable fire?
What a dissing of the work Jesus accomplished by his sacrificial death. . .
It is you who makes it a cheap salvation!
You have provided no remedy for the condemnation into which all mankind is born (Romans 5:18) because of the guilt of Adam's transgression imputed to them (Romans 5:12-14).
Condemnation is a sentence to eternal punishment, to which you do not apply Jesus' saving work.
You simply assume a remedy for that condemnation, and apply Christ's atonement only to the life of the regenerate, not to their salvation from condemnation.
Love theWhy would that not also include mere justice? See, here's the thing (and maybe this is poorly stated, but: God is the default fact. He is altogether purity and justice. He cannot abide injustice, though he can put it into a time envelope and let it ripen. But in the end, it all must be put right. And there is only one way for that to happen —'balancing the scales' so to speak. Call it what you want, it must happen. And he is going to see to it that it does.
So infinite God is who was offended by any injustice, and infinite God will see to it that the scales are balanced. The burning power of his purity cannot be held back in the end. It will see to it that 'payment' is exacted, thoroughly and precisely.
The nice notions that this is correction or 'a teachable moment' or whatever else, is all details that ignore the real problem and the real fact of God's 'retribution'.
If these souls were "reformable" it would make God delinquent in allowing them to continue.Well, I could argue that point, too, but we're getting off topic. My point in the post you responded to is that the only kind of "punishment" that makes sense in relation to God is reformative punishment, i.e. punishment that restores, which might be painful for us but is good and needed.
Pump up the emotions? ... That's no substitute for the Holy Spirit leading. The grace-enabling that grants understanding.Preach it! @Clare73 Amen, sister!
Until then. We are called to believe what God's Word actually tells us.Why would that not also include mere justice? See, here's the thing (and maybe this is poorly stated, but: God is the default fact. He is altogether purity and justice. He cannot abide injustice, though he can put it into a time envelope and let it ripen. But in the end, it all must be put right. And there is only one way for that to happen —'balancing the scales' so to speak. Call it what you want, it must happen. And he is going to see to it that it does.
So infinite God is who was offended by any injustice, and infinite God will see to it that the scales are balanced. The burning power of his purity cannot be held back in the end. It will see to it that 'payment' is exacted, thoroughly and precisely.
The nice notions that this is correction or 'a teachable moment' or whatever else, is all details that ignore the real problem and the real fact of God's 'retribution'.
Why would that not also include mere justice?
God is immutable. God before all else is Righteousness.What is mere justice? God brings all of this into being. God is absolutely sovereign. Mere justice is God succeeded in what God sets out to do. If God sets out to create creatures in God's own image and desires to bring them into union, God will do that. That's mere justice, i.e. whatever God wants.
If these souls were "reformable" it would make God delinquent in allowing them to continue.
If you're referring to Adam, his guilt is imputed to mankind, not his sin. (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18)
unrighteous
Or...delinquent in creating them. If you look for first principles, why start with a wholly contingent, dependable creature, unless your aim is to weaken divine sovereignty and gloat in the human power to destroy itself, which is true but not irredeemable.
You keep using righteousness as if it's a peculiar property of God that has nothing to do with God's justice.
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