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Is Abraham's bosom (side) not a metaphor for the Paradise of Sheol, as distinct from the fire of Hades of Sheol?"Abraham's Bosom" is not a place, it is a position.
In Biblical times people did not sit on chairs at a waist high table they reclined on their left elbow at a low table with their feet extended away from the table. That is how the woman was able to wash Jesus' feet and washed them with her tears. In that time, a woman did not crawl around under a table at the feet of strange men.
Abraham's Bosom
In the New Testament and in Jewish writings a term signifying the abodeof bliss in the other world. According to IV Macc. xiii. 17, the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In Ḳid. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," which means that he has entered paradise.
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
When the letters of the English word socks are spoken S.O.C.K.S. In Spanish eso si que es it means "it is what it is." I quoted from Jewish sources I find them more reliable concerning Jewish history etc. than anonymous people online.Is it not a metaphor for the Paradise of Sheol, as distinct from the fire of Hades of Sheol?
¢¢Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
Thanks for all that great info.According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.
[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, GehennaWhen Jesus taught e.g.,
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
This refutes the false narrative that when Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was supposedly referring to nonexistent continually burning fires in the valley of GeHinnom where trash and bodies were supposedly disposed of.
”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41[A fate worse than death. DA]
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16
In post #306, I quoted the following from Wikipedia:
'Although the Harrowing of Hell is taught by the Lutheran, Catholic, Reformed, and Orthodox traditions, a number of Christians reject the doctrine of the "harrowing of hell", claiming that "there is scant scriptural evidence for [it], and that Jesus's own words contradict it".'
When you objected to Reformed believing this, I checked several websites and, indeed, Reformed, Lutherans, and Methodists do _not_ believe in Harrowing of Hell. And, of course, Evangelicals do not. Only Orthodox, Catholics, and Anglicans do.
Wikipedia is wrong.
Is Abraham's bosom (side) not a metaphor for the Paradise of Sheol, as distinct from the fire of Hades of Sheol?
Well, in this discussion it is assumed that Rich and Lazarus were in an intermediate place, Hades,When the letters of the English word socks are spoken S.O.C.K.S. In Spanish eso si que es it means "it is what it is." I quoted from Jewish sources I find them more reliable concerning Jewish history etc. than anonymous people online.
In my previous post where I quoted Jewish sources the Jews considered Ge Hinnom and sheol interchangeable. Sheol is written as "hades " in the 225 BC septuagint and the N.T. And Gehinnom is written as Gehenna in both the septuagint and NT.Because Hades is in Sheol, it can correctly be called Sheol, just as Paradise can correctly be called Sheol.
I am making a distinction between Hades and eternal Gehenna, as well as between Paradise and eternal heaven.
Your response is that my distinction is incorrect, that
Sheol, Hades and Gehenna are one and the same place, and that
Paradise (which is not in Sheol) and heaven are one and the same place?
So Lazarus and Rich were not in an intermediate place between death and the final judgment,
but were in eternal Gehenna and eternal heaven?
Is it not a metaphor for the Paradise of Sheol, as distinct from the fire of Hades of Sheol?
Is Abraham's bosom (side) not a metaphor for the Paradise of Sheol, as distinct from the fire of Hades of Sheol?
So, as I previously stated, that means Sheol, Hades and Gehenna are one and the same place, and thatIn my previous post where I quoted Jewish sources the Jews considered Ge Hinnom and sheol interchangeable. Sheol is written as "hades " in the 225 BC septuagint and the N.T. And Gehinnom is written as Gehenna in both the septuagint and NT.
I am talking about there being no text nor person addressed indicated in your response, it's just hanging out there in thin air.IOW, God does not punish people, people essentially punish themselves.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Yes, this is definitely true. There is absolutely no salvation except except through the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Lord. But you misrepresented the scenarios I offered as if they were supposed to be understood in a non-Christian milieu.If the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ doesn’t convince us to love Him, then apparently nothing ever will. In that case, we keep going our own way. Sucks, but not utterly merciless.
It should have been obvious that I was talking about Christian knowledge, which the apostle Paul mentioned a lot in his letters. It is obvious the ignorance of Christ's status and his salvation dooms billions of people around the world. Many souls in Hades received the Gospel after Christ's crucifixion. The Catholic Church does believe in the Harrowing of Hell. Why do you deny the importance of knowledge and pretend that conveying knowledge through evangelism is not a Christian principle in this life? EO do believe that souls could be saved in Hades. And this principle by no means contradicts the Catholic Catechism.“Post-mortum education” sounds like a sort of veiled Gnosticism. In that view, knowledge saves, I guess, because if only souls know the right thing, then they will choose the right thing? So let’s educate everyone and all will be well. Is that it? I don’t know. It seems ironic to say that the Omniscient Infinite Logos appears not to value knowledge much, but then just look at how stupid even the smartest person who ever lived was, and try to argue from the easily-deceived and -deceiving human intellect that the One Infinite Mind was ever concerned much with humans attaining a proper education in this life, much less in eternity.
Yes, this is he case for true Christians. Praise God.God won’t destroy me. He won’t leave me to figure out the path to Nirvana after 666 trips through this vomitorium. He’s not trying to make sure I learn all the correct doctrines or be able to cite scripture from the best translations or be familiar with canons and councils. He’s not even interested in purging me except for the fact that whatever needs purging is everything that impedes my loving Him with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength.
I agree with the 1st point but was denying the 2nd point, the side moral, in your statement, "in the Rich Man and Lazarus, the point of the story is, 'even if one were to return from the grave, they will not believe.' But there is also the side moral, that one gets what one deserves, and particularly, that God will have mercy on whomever he choses"Are you denying that it is Jesus point, that the whole story leads up to?
You previously mentioned that people are unconscious until the resurrection, that they feel they are immediately resurrected. What is Hades for, then? Is it like a bedroom for spirits?I'm not denying there was/is a place called Hades, nor Sheol, nor The Grave, nor bowels of the earth nor any other of that sort.
Spirits being conscious in the intermediate state is consistent with the Lord's assertion that when He talked w/ Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were actually alive. And also w/ Elijah and Moses appearing with Lord at the transfiguration.I'm saying that the parable is just a story, and no, not scifi, and not introducing new concepts, unless as helpful in producing the twist at the end that the listeners were not expecting.
As a true believer in sola scriptura, you put a lot of emphasis on the OT.I see no reason to think this is the way The Realm of the Dead, and The Bosom of Abraham, and the logistics of things after death, etc etc are like, other than to note that some times the Old Jewish thinking was right. To me, it is dangerous to build doctrine on such details of a parable.
How did Jesus preach to them if they were unconscious?I think he went and preached to those who had died.
Wonderful, now you believe in the Harrowing of HellI don't know how many of which were saved or not. I can only speculate as to what his purpose was for doing so. And I believe his preaching had precisely the effect he intended, (though I don't know what that effect was), since, (my paraphrase) 'his word will not return to him void, but will accomplish that for which he sent it' —it always does.
I think you're right.Also, I have no reason to think that this "preaching" was what our imagination produces at the sound of the words.
That's the standard answer that works with Damnationism. But we are told who he made proclamation to. The disobedient that died in the flood.
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
I agree with the 1st point but was denying the 2nd point, the side moral, in your statement, "in the Rich Man and Lazarus, the point of the story is, 'even if one were to return from the grave, they will not believe.' But there is also the side moral, that one gets what one deserves, and particularly, that God will have mercy on whomever he choses"
You previously mentioned that people are unconscious until the resurrection, that they feel they are immediately resurrected. What is Hades for, then? Is it like a bedroom for spirits?
Spirits being conscious in the intermediate state is consistent with the Lord's assertion that when He talked w/ Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were actually alive. And also w/ Elijah and Moses appearing with Lord at the transfiguration.
Mar 12:26 “And in regard to the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the bush, how God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ 27 He is not the God of the dead but of the living. You are very badly mistaken.”
As a true believer in sola scriptura, you put a lot of emphasis on the OT.
How did Jesus preach to them if they were unconscious?
Wonderful, now you believe in the Harrowing of Hell.
I think you're right.
I hadn't put together just who the captives were, just that it was so. But that is a good parallel reading on that point. I'll have to study it further.Would you examine that one again for me.
Although Paul is quoting from Psalms 68:18 to bring in the idea of the "gifts to men" in v. 11, he seems to interject a reminder here to his readers of Christ's coming to earth (incarnation in the lower earthly regions) and his following resurrection and ascension; i.e., "ascended" on high leading captivity (Satan and sin) captive.
What think ye?
Was it really repentance and agreeing with God, or just a need for fire insurance?
To whom and what are you responding?
This is not true. The rational part of humans that survives death is frequently referred to as the "spirit." When Jesus was about to die, He said:As far as I know humans are never referred to as spirits in scripture, only as souls.
I am curious of any doctrines about divine punishment, specifically as related to the afterlife, but in general, too.
I'll throw out a couple.
Anselm: Anselm argues the sin is not only disobedience, but it also dishonors God. Sin, therefore, incurs a double debt (disobedience and dishonor) that one must repay or for which one must be punished. He explains why punishment is needed. Punishment subjects the human creature, thereby putting them back in their place, which restores God's honor. So, punishment restores God's honor.
Calvin: Calvin, ever the lawyer, said sin makes us criminals, essentially. Criminals must be punished. Sin incurs divine wrath, therefore, God must punish us. Of course, God punishes Jesus in our place so we don't have to be punished. He, too, will talk about punishment putting us back in our proper place.
Is that what divine punishment does? Is it a release valve for divine wrath? Does punishment restore God's honor? Are there any better ideas out there of what punishment is or does? Is divine punishment necessary? If so, why?
(The poll specifically concerns unrepentant sin at death so we can avoid wasting time getting to the point)
This is not true. The rational part of humans that survives death is frequently referred to as the "spirit." When Jesus was about to die, He said:
Luk 23:46 He cried out, “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.” And with these words he breathed his last.
We also read:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Job 32:8 But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
James 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:
Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you
Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?
Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts.
Numbers 16:22 And they fell on their faces and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?”
Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
I don't think time will apply to them the way it does to us. It may be that I said something like, that, to US, it seems like time passes until the resurrection, so that is why we come up with 'Soul sleep'.
I don't have any problem with them being conscious, just not conscious of passage of time, for them.
I better ask you what you believe happens between the death and resurrection of the body. Looks like I've been making assumptions that do not necessarily reflect your views.Where did I say they were unconscious?
God of the living implies that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were conscious in Hades when the Lord was talking w/ Moses.Somehow I don't follow you. How is he being the God of the living and not of the dead, in the way Mark 12:26 puts it, any rebuttal to what I said.
It is not sarcasm. Although I disagree w/ sola scriptura as a method of interpretation, you use this method consistently, which is commendable. Others may claim that they use the same method but they are inconsistent.I'm not sure if that is sarcasm, or a compliment. But thanks!
The point is the the spirit is the element that survives death. The soul generally does not survive death in the OT, the Gospels, and Paul's epistles. (I know that the soul survives death in Greek philosophy.)I never said humans don't have a spirit
This is because before death, people are not spirits. We are both spirit + flesh.people are said to be souls as distinct from angels who are referred to as being spirits. ie Adam became a living soul, not a living spirit.
Many souls in Hades received the Gospel after Christ's crucifixion. The Catholic Church does believe in the Harrowing of Hell... EO do believe that souls could be saved in Hades. And this principle by no means contradicts the Catholic Catechism.
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