Divination

[CantThinkofaUserName]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]What do you guys think about this site:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/divin_bibl.htm

I always thought "scyring" and the such were forbidden, so what's the deal with this opening passage from the site above:

"[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]There are a number of instances in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) where respected biblical leaders were involved with various black magic, divination and occultic activities as a normal part of their daily activities -- apparently without any condemnations from God[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]& this:[/FONT]

"Interpreting Deuteronomy 18 in terms of modern-day practice, it is apparent that the following are prohibited:

1. yid'oni The New Age practice of channeling in which a person attempts to contact a spirit in order to gain knowledge.
2. ...
   

Other currently used methods of foretelling the future,such as tea cup reading, astrology, palm reading, tarot cards, runes etc. are not mentioned. It is thus not obvious whether they are forbidden (as in snake charming) or whether they are acceptable to God (as in scrying).

I knew a few people who did this "tea cup" thing, and always assumed that it was, I don't know, evil? Not of God? What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks!
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[ContentInHim]

None of that is of God.

God has used several methods of communicating his wishes supernaturally: the Urim and Thummim which the priests consulted for answers from God to questions from the people and the use of lots for choosing someone to do something. The Urim and Thummim have disappeared - sometime around 600BC, I think, and nobody uses lots (like getting the short straw) anymore. If you use lots and ask for God's help, God's choice is the one chosen.

But no witchcraft, fortunetelling, channeling, focusing of evil spirits is ever to be used. King Saul went to a witch to raise his dead prophet Samuel and he died the next day, with his sons, for his sin.

Does this help?

p.s. I don't go on that site so I'm just answering your OP.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

None of that is of God.
Does this help?

Somewhat.

I completely understand what you've said, and I've thought the same - but, and what I basically wanted to know was if this:

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica] "[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]There are a number of instances in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) where respected biblical leaders were involved with various black magic, divination and occultic activities as a normal part of their daily activities -- apparently without any condemnations from God[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]...was a fallacious statement. Meaning there weren't any individuals that performed "Divination", "Black Magic" or other "Occult" activities that were "respected" by God.

Thanks

p.s. Just a little insight as to why I ask: I knew a few people who did this whole "tea cup" and "divination" thing and they considered it a "gift" from God (not a god, but the God of the bible). Even though I was completely ignorant to the subject, my gut told me that what they were doing can't possibly be from God - and whether I was wrong or right, this feeling was strong.

So, I started to do a bit of research and also came on here to ask the question in hopes that someone can guide me in the right direction.
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
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[theVirginian]

I wouldn't trust anything on the web site. This is from their beliefs page. Talk about a recipe for confusion.

OCRT Statement of Belief:

We are a multi-faith group. As of 2006-JAN, we consist of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. Thus, the OCRT staff lack agreement on almost all theological matters: belief in a supreme being, the nature of God, interpretation of the Bible and other holy texts, whether life after death exists and what form it takes, etc.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

I wouldn't trust anything on the web site. This is from their beliefs page. Talk about a recipe for confusion.

Hey, thanks a lot for your response, theVirginian.

The thing with me is, I don't discriminate against truth. If a satanist were to tell you that Jesus Christ is the Lord, would you not believe him/her simply because he/she is of an "evil" cult? Truths lie everywhere, so do lies - it's in our hands to decipher which is which - and try not to cast everything as unintelligent nonsense simply because the person (or persons) relaying the message are of a different faith.

If that specific board is confused, then so be it - couldn't care less. What I need is to either validate or discredit what they're saying - that's all.

 

[Key]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]What do you guys think about this site:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/divin_bibl.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/divin_bibl.htm


Oooo ReligiousTolorance.Org, warping and misapplying the scriptures, one topic at a time.

Seriously, I can't take what the site says with much credit, because despite their "title" they are not tolerant of the Christian faith, and at every bend and passage, they just warp the scriptures in ways I did not think could be done.

a Fine example of seeking to make the bible say what you want it to say, and make unsubstantiated claims, all the while trying to pass this off as viable and supported scholarly work.

I always thought "scyring" and the such were forbidden, so what's the deal with this opening passage from the site above:

They are.

I knew a few people who did this "tea cup" thing, and always assumed that it was, I don't know, evil? Not of God? What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks!
[/FONT]

It's a joke when you think about it, I mean, one would ask, if you are going to read "Tea Leaves" who or what controls their placements.

If it is just gravity and random chance, then why bother reading them.

If it is God, then why tea leaves, when God has left Books, Prophets, and all manner of instruction of how to live a life.

If is something "else" are you sure you want to trust them?

In the end, if want to do it for fun, then do it, just make sure it is only for fun. Treat is like the horoscope in the newspaper.

God Bless

Key

 

[theVirginian]

If a satanist were to tell you that Jesus Christ is the Lord, would you not believe him/her simply because he/she is of an "evil" cult? Truths lie everywhere, so do lies - it's in our hands to decipher which is which - and try not to cast everything as unintelligent nonsense simply because the person (or persons) relaying the message are of a different faith.

Try to not paint me as a religious bigot. The credentials of the messenger are crucial. You bring up satanism which is an extreme example. First of all, no satanist will admit that Jesus is lord. Secondly, their interpretation of the Bible would give any thinking person who has read it a dizzying headache.

What I need is to either validate or discredit what they're saying - that's all.

The account of Joseph and the silver cup.

If you read the whole story of Joseph's life, you'll find no evidence that he practiced the occult, including the dream interpretation parts.

Joseph's brothers didn't recognize him when they came to buy grain from him and he kept the secret by playing the role of an elitist Egyptian ruler with them. The silver cup was just a drinking cup that Joseph used as a prop and his claims of divination powers were just part of the role he was playing.

 

[ContentInHim]

Somewhat.

I completely understand what you've said, and I've thought the same - but, and what I basically wanted to know was if this:

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica] "[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]There are a number of instances in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) where respected biblical leaders were involved with various black magic, divination and occultic activities as a normal part of their daily activities -- apparently without any condemnations from God[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]...was a fallacious statement. Meaning there weren't any individuals that performed "Divination", "Black Magic" or other "Occult" activities that were "respected" by God.

Thanks

p.s. Just a little insight as to why I ask: I knew a few people who did this whole "tea cup" and "divination" thing and they considered it a "gift" from God (not a god, but the God of the bible). Even though I was completely ignorant to the subject, my gut told me that what they were doing can't possibly be from God - and whether I was wrong or right, this feeling was strong.

So, I started to do a bit of research and also came on here to ask the question in hopes that someone can guide me in the right direction.
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
[/FONT][/FONT]

With the exception of King Saul and some of the really wicked kings of Israel and Judah, no one else used the occult since it is expressly forbidden in Torah. King Saul was not so much evil as tragic. But there were other kings like Ahab of Israel who I'm sure used witchcraft.

Oh, I just thought of Moses - for instance when his (or Aaron's staff turned into a snake and ate the diviners' snakes) but that clearly was a miracle rather than witchcraft. That's perhaps where the misunderstanding comes in.

 

[talitha]

what I basically wanted to know was if this:

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]There are a number of instances in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) where respected biblical leaders were involved with various black magic, divination and occultic activities as a normal part of their daily activities -- apparently without any condemnations from God[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]...was a fallacious statement.

Yes, it is.

Meaning there weren't any individuals that performed "Divination", "Black Magic" or other "Occult" activities that were "respected" by God.

Both in specific cases and in general statements and directives, the Bible expressly condemns divination - in 1 John it says that no one who practices such things enters the Kingdom of Heaven. Now, if one were to renounce these things and cease practicing them, asking and trusting God in Christ for forgiveness, then of course they can be restored.

Just a little insight as to why I ask: I knew a few people who did this whole "tea cup" and "divination" thing and they considered it a "gift" from God (not a god, but the God of the bible). Even though I was completely ignorant to the subject, my gut told me that what they were doing can't possibly be from God - and whether I was wrong or right, this feeling was strong.

Are you sure you're not a closet Christian? this sounds like the inner guidance of the Holy Spirit to me.

The thing is, intuition is in fact a gift from God, in the same way as any talent is, such as singing. Everyone is given gifts that are from the Lord. The "divination thing" is (IMHO) simply a mis-directed seer or prophetic gift. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy; all prophecy should ultimately point to Him.

blessings
tal

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Oooo ReligiousTolorance.Org, warping and misapplying the scriptures, one topic at a time.

I s'pose my first mistake was asking you guys what you thought of the site, when what I meant to ask was what you thought of the paragraph I quoted from the site.

If it is God, then why tea leaves...

God knows....literally. Who really has an answer to why He does anything, really. All it's done is leave us with the question "Why". We don't have an answer, and I personally try not to discredit something as being Ungodly when I don't know for certain whether it is or isn't. You know what I mean?

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Try to not paint me as a religious bigot.

Sorry, I really didn't mean it to come off that way.

You bring up satanism which is an extreme example. First of all, no satanist will admit that Jesus is lord.

As extreme an example as it may be, my point was, that if they did, for whatever reason they may have (i.e. maybe to branch into a quote from their own book, which you'd know has great potential to be lie and a contradiction to the bible, btw), that that initial quote is true and cannot and will not be denied by any christian, correct?

If you read the whole story of Joseph's life

For the record, I haven't read it.

...you'll find no evidence that he practiced the occult, including the dream interpretation parts.

How about the rest of the bible? There isn't one man who practiced any of these things (anywhere in the bible) and was respected by God despite his involvement with such things?

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Yes, it is.

I like straight-forward answers.

Are you sure you're not a closet Christian? this sounds like the inner guidance of the Holy Spirit to me.

I've been a Christian all of my life. Actually, let me rephrase: I've been, for a good portion of my life, told that I was a Christian. I've been told that God is kind; that God is caring; that God loves me. I was told to think this way and never really did so because I knew from the depth of my being that God is what everyone has told me He is, you know? And although, by definition, I'm considered an Agnostic, I somehow feel I have somewhat of a better understanding of God than I did when I "believed". If there is a God, then I'm sure He knows that I want to know Him - but I need to find Him myself.

The thing is, intuition is in fact a gift from God, in the same way as any talent is, such as singing. Everyone is given gifts that are from the Lord. The "divination thing" is (IMHO) simply a mis-directed seer or prophetic gift.

So, intuition is accepted by God and not divination? If so, why? And also, how are we to distinguish one from the other? Is it possible?

 

[theVirginian]

As extreme an example as it may be, my point was, that if they did, for whatever reason they may have (i.e. maybe to branch into a quote from their own book, which you'd know has great potential to be lie and a contradiction to the bible, btw), that that initial quote is true and cannot and will not be denied by any christian, correct?

Sure, but it won't give any more credibility to the book. It's still 99.5% wrong. There's no reason to waste my time reading it.

How about the rest of the bible? There isn't one man who practiced any of these things (anywhere in the bible) and was respected by God despite his involvement with such things?

If there was one, he would have had to live before God officially laid down the law. I'm not aware of any.

So, intuition is accepted by God and not divination? If so, why? And also, how are we to distinguish one from the other? Is it possible?

Divination always involves the use of physical objects, crystal ball, tarot cards, etc. Intuition is a 6th sense inside us.



As to your tea leaf diviners, they are kidding themselves if they think they have a gift from God. Reading tea leaves isn't mentioned in the Bible, but it's just another form of fortune telling which definately is addressed. Why would God give a gift of something he has condemned?

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Sure, but it won't give any more credibility to the book. It's still 99.5% wrong. There's no reason to waste my time reading it.

Dude, forget about their book. My main point (and you can go back a few posts to confirm) focuses on this quote: "Jesus Christ is the Lord". Regardless of who says this, whether it be a sinner, an Atheist, or whomever, the quote is true to a Christian.

I initially made this point because many people seem to dismiss what any other religion or person outside of the Christian faith says. "Oh, he's a 'this' or 'that', so he can't be right". If he's speaking the TRUTH, then he IS right. Once he starts to contradict himself or lie, then he's doing just that: Contradicting himself and lying.

We're not automatons, we were born with sense - should we not use it simply because someone is of a different religious backround? I mean it's one thing to not want to listen to an Atheist (or anyone outside of the Christian faith for that matter), but it's another thing to say (or assume) they're wrong about something without really hearing them out.

If there was one, he would have had to live before God officially laid down the law. I'm not aware of any.

Ok, cool! These guys may just have enough nerve to flat-out lie about such a thing - I'll throw them an email and ask a few questions when I get a moment - let's see if it goes unanswered.

Divination always involves the use of physical objects, crystal ball, tarot cards, etc. Intuition is a 6th sense inside us.

Ahhh, I see. Ok, thanks!

As to your tea leaf diviners, they are kidding themselves if they think they have a gift from God. Reading tea leaves isn't mentioned in the Bible, but it's just another form of fortune telling which definately is addressed. Why would God give a gift of something he has condemned?

Not sure. Then again, having not read the entire bible (more like 90% of it), I've ran into a few "contradictions" and figured this might've been another one.

 

[theVirginian]

I initially made this point because many people seem to dismiss what any other religion or person outside of the Christian faith says. "Oh, he's a 'this' or 'that', so he can't be right". If he's speaking the TRUTH, then he IS right.

I understand your point. What I'm saying is that there are more effecient ways to learn. With most other religions, I have to throw out 90% of what is said and what they were right about, there's a Christian with the same information that I only have to maybe toss 15% out. This is just as true going the other way. Other religions aren't going to learn much about themselves by listening to a Christian.

Ok, cool! These guys may just have enough nerve to flat-out lie about such a thing - I'll throw them an email and ask a few questions when I get a moment - let's see if it goes unanswered.

In case they come back with casting lots is an occult practice, the way it was used was a method of making a too-close-to-call decision, not for fortune telling. The modern equivalent would be tossing a coin. Until you started this thread, I always thought the idea that God would determine the outcome was silly. Then I came across this, "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." Proverbs 16:33. I guess there's something to it after all. Live and learn.

 

[Merlin]

There are many thoughts posted above.
I think there are 2 significant points to bring away from this discussion.
1-not everything defined today, in english as divination is forbidden by God.
That having been said, it's best to avoid anything that would distract one from God.
2-Do not contact any other entity= the dead, other spirits, etc. Do not channel spirits or similar.
The Bible does not say channeling or having spirit guides doesn't work.
It forbids the practice.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

1-not everything defined today, in english as divination is forbidden by God.

Would you elaborate on this a bit, please?

 

[Key]

I s'pose my first mistake was asking you guys what you thought of the site, when what I meant to ask was what you thought of the paragraph I quoted from the site.

Well.. one needs to know the source of what is being said, and how it works and applies to know what they dealing with. As such, the credibility of that site is very much in question, I have seen much better sites that support wicca and other forms of the occult then what RT has put forth.

God knows....literally. Who really has an answer to why He does anything, really. All it's done is leave us with the question "Why". We don't have an answer, and I personally try not to discredit something as being Ungodly when I don't know for certain whether it is or isn't. You know what I mean?

In this case, God would have also provided a means by which his people could and would be asked to "Read tea leaves" in this sense, God has not done this, as such, one would say, that God has not said or mentioned that he will communicate with us via Tea Leaves, or Tarot Cards, or what have you. If there was mention in the Bible that God would use these as a means to communicate with us, then that would be a different story, but God has said he will speak though his Chosen Prophets, though Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

In this case, you would have a hard time getting me to accept Tea Leaves and Tarot Cards as any of the above.

As I said, take it with a grain of salt, as most of the stuff like reading tea leaves, or tarot cards and all that, is just a game or playtime passing stuff anyway.. nothing I would take.. too serious.. maybe treat it like a Game of D&D or something... just for entertainment...

P.S. All the Kings that turned to Divination, and away from God, where shunned in Gods Eyes, and he abhorred them. Just because he did not drop a lightning bolt in their backside, does not mean he was not happy with them, and God expressed that he was not happy with what they have done. But God.. be blessed... is patient.

Hope this helps.

God Bless

Key

 

[Merlin]

Would you elaborate on this a bit, please?

Sure.
When translating from one language to another, one chooses the word with the closest meaning.
Perfect translation is not possible.
The translation from Hebrew to English was done hundreds of years ago.
Later, other superstitions often creep into the word meanings.
That's why many Christians invest in special language study tools. To study more carefully and in more detail what was actually said.

It's not like God will condemn you for using an English Bible. Using the current English form of 'divination' is not a sin.

 

[Divinah]

There are alot of black magic, false gods/prophets, stoning people, etc...that took place in the bible. The apostle Paul used to slay Christians... ...DUUUHHHHHHHHH... was that OK? DUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHH, I'm not sure I even understand the question...

was it "should we care about some jaded false teaching website you stumbled upon and even give it the dignity of debating it with you?"

UUUUUHHHH....WAS THAT THE QUESTION?

I really don't think your asking for edification, just to rouse people up with something you know, yourself to be the pathetic nonsense it is with regard to our religion...nonbeliever or not.