Dividing the waters from the waters

[ashibaka]

In the Creation story, God creates the "firmament". The firmament is a solid structure which is placed in high heaven so that the "waters" above (the sky) won't come crashing down on us. Here's a picture:

Genesis 1:6 (this is from the KJV):

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

As you can see, the ancient Hebrews clearly believed that the sky was made out of water, and a firmament in the midst of the waters held it up.

Is this true? Or, perhaps, is Genesis 1:6 an primitive way of explaining the way the sky looks? (Creationists only, please.)

 

[Sinai]

Although what you describe is a good, valid interpretation of what the Hebrew might be saying, it is by no means the only interpretation, since the Hebrew words used have several valid meanings.

For example, the Hebrew hammayim most commonly is translated as water, which is the way the KJV translates it. However, it can also mean a chaotic mixture--and you will find that some of the most respected Jewish biblical scholars (writing 700-1200 years ago, which is well before modern scientific discoveries) believed that chaotic mixture was probably the better meaning of the term as it is used in the first eight verses of Genesis.

The KJV's translation of the Hebrew raqia as firmament is probably not as justifiable, since the more common usage of that term is expanse, though the word has a number of other possible meanings as well.

Thus, the scriptures could be describing the separation of continents and oceans on the second day--but then it appears that God may repeat the action one day later. Or it could be a division between sky and sea. Or it could be the formation of the heavenly firmament (the stars and solar systems of the Milky Way could be formed at this time), which would have a more cosmic meaning.

The Hebrew could support any of these interpretations.

 

[jon1101]

Well, I'm not sure if I'm a creationist anymore, but I can tell you what I used to believe (No teasing me about this. I was young and credulous =). I, along with many creationists, believed that there was a canopy of vapors in the early atmosphere that sustained a hothouse environment. This was supposed to keep the world at a lovely condition that allowed people to live so much longer than they do now.

Some people even said that the moon at one time crashed into this canopy and it came crashing down, causing the global flood. The "evidence" for this was that ancient star charts suggest the earth's axis of rotation used to be substantially differant than it is now, so there must have been some big impact or something that caused the axis to shift.

That's just an opinion. Please don't ask me to defend it. 

-jon

 

[Duane Morse]

The picture is showing the waters below the firmament, with the firmament, the expanse, space, between those waters below and the waters above the expanse.

If you read my post "Bubbles, Bubbles" it is explained in there. That is a very good picture with which to understand it. And a few other things are interesting like the pyramid over on the side, which I won't get into right now.

But is is accurate in showing water above space. That is what is on the other side. If you were to go to the extents of our dimension, the space, you would find a wall of water.

 

[Duane Morse]

If anything crashed through the canopy causing it to lose integrity it was probably Hale-Bopp comet. It passed by the earth in 2209 B.C., 105 years before the flood and just about the exact time that Noah had his three sons and began to build the ark. There is evidence in an ice-core record that shows a significant dust event at precisely this time, suggesting that Hale-Bopp split and a portion impacted the earth.
If there was a canopy around the planet, and its immenent destruction was the warning for Noah to build the ark, then the passing of Hale-Bopp was probably the physical agent that caused it.

 

[Sky]

What do you mean by "the extents of our dimension"? And how do you know that there is water there?

 

[Hank]

Part of my family belongs to the Jehovah Wittinesses.

If the Bible says there is water in heavens then it is. You can't argue against the word of God.

I think what the original writer expressed are

Oceans,
air
clouds

- where air is the firmament that holds the clouds.

Whoever drew the picture reminds me a little on one specific forum goer around this here parts

Artists and science don't go together.

 

[Duane Morse]

I know because a bubble was formed in the water, separating the waters into two separate bodies of water, the water below the expanse and the waters above the expanse. The expanse is space, outer space. So that left the waters surrounding the earth and the waters above the firmament.
The space is expanding to the extents of the dimension that contains it, and the extents are marked by the boundries of the water containing it.
And past that is water as fur as the eye can see.

 

[Sky]

Duane Morse says:
"I know because a bubble was formed in the water, separating the waters into two separate bodies of water, the water below the expanse and the waters above the expanse. The expanse is space, outer space. So that left the waters surrounding the earth and the waters above the firmament.
The space is expanding to the extents of the dimension that contains it, and the extents are marked by the boundries of the water containing it.
And past that is water as fur as the eye can see."




You mean outside of the universe? There is water outside of the universe?

I always thought that nothing existed outside of the universe.

 

[Duane Morse]

The universe is space, the expanse. It is where matter is formed. It is where the body grows. It is the womb.
Outside of the universe is water, yes.

 

[jon1101]

Duane Morse, isn't the canopy theory now on AiG's "do not use" list of creationist arguments? Has anyone ever produced a working model of this often-alleged canopy with any supporting evidence?

-jon

 

[Sky]

That is a very interesting opinion, but I don't know of any scientific evidence for water (or anything, for that matter) existing outside of the universe. Also, it's very strange that water would only exist in two places, on the earth and outside of the universe, two areas that are trillions+ miles apart! The universe is unimaginably huge, and I find it hard to believe that anything exists beyond it.

 

[Sky]

CTI,

What Duane Morse described was not the canopy theory. The canopy theory is that before the flood, the air was very thick and contained 100% oxygen, blocking out the UV rays of the sun and allowing people to live much longer than they do now. It is not real science.

 

[Duane Morse]

Actually, I did not put forth a canopy theory, but I am familiar with a few.
The stuff about Hale-Bopp does not rely on the canopy theory, the piece that struck the planet may not have gone through a canopy, but there was an impact 105 years before the flood, and it is likely that event was the warning for Noah.

The space is expanding, and the expanse began here at this planet. The waters were divided, and as space enlarges the water gets further out from our perspective. So while the universe is large, there is still water on the other side. The space is opening in the water, and the water will always surround it no matter how big we percieve it to be.

 

[Sky]

The earth is not the center of the univers, science proves it. People believed it was hundreds of years ago, but that's only because from their perspective they seemed to be in the center of the universe. If you traveled to a planet 10 billion light-years away from us, and looked up at the sky, you would still think you were in the center of the universe! Remember that hundreds of years ago, people thought the world was flat and the sky was held up by mountains!

You still didn't answer my question. What scientific evidence do you have for water surrounding the universe?

 

[jon1101]

Originally posted by Duane Morse
Actually, I did not put forth a canopy theory, but I am familiar with a few.
The stuff about Hale-Bopp does not rely on the canopy theory, the piece that struck the planet may not have gone through a canopy, but there was an impact 105 years before the flood, and it is likely that event was the warning for Noah. 

Okay, sorry I misinterpretted you. I thought you were saying that Hale-Bopp caused a canopy collapse, but I think you were just giving a more believeable version of the belief that I said some hold, right? My mistake.

-jon

 

[Duane Morse]

Science can not prove the earth was not at the center when the expansion began. They do not even understand the mechanics of the expansion. It expanded from here before there were any Sun, moon, and stars. The objects in the space were made later by a couple "days". What we see now is the continuing expansion with everything that has been formed since. Just because the earth now revolves around the sun in the movements governed by this particular dimension, that does not mean it has always been so. The earth was here before anything else except the energy and water. In the beginning God created heaven and earth. After that came the sun, moon ,and stars, and the motions of those bodies.

And science has no proof of what is outside the universe any more than I do. This is what the Bible tells us, but if you are looking for scientific "proof" you will be a long time waiting. Even evidence of what is "outside" the universe would be hard to come by. By anyone.

I was not trying to give a more believable version of the canopy theory, no. But I do know that at the time of the passing of Hale-Bopp there is a spike in the ice core graph showing a sharp increase in the dust levels in the atmosphere. I believe there was an impact of part of the comet. IF there was a canopy, then that piece of Hale-Bopp would have gone through it. IF it was a vapor canopy, then the passing of the piece would have just stirred up the vapor before it impacted the earth. But IF there was a frozen water canopy that some have suggested, then the piece would have fractured it and punched a hole in it.

 

[Sky]

The Bible is probably talking about the clouds and water vapor being separated from the oceans when it talked about the expanse, not the universe being surrounde by water. Hypothetically, if the universe was surrounded by water, there could be life there. Of course there is no water except on earth and in the atmosphere. And the odds of the same substance (water) existing in only two places so far apart from each other is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1 !

 

[Morat]

  Actually, the earth is at the center of expansion. The problem is, so is every other point in space.

   No matter where you are in the universe, a quick glance around shows everything receeding from you uniformly.

   To help sort out the notion, imagine the surface of a balloon. Mark a point. Then inflate the ballon. Every point on the balloon receeds from all the others at the same rate. From the point of view of a dot on the surface, they are at the center of expansion.

 

 

[Duane Morse]

How do you calculate your odds?
Can you fit any more zero's in?
And there is life there, it is called God. Where do you think Life comes from in the first place?