Divided work = Divided Praise .............

[cygnusx1]

a man is drowning , he is unable to swim and there is a shark in the water !!


But what is this I see , a stranger is diving into these treacherous waters and is moving with a strong desire and with great determination to the drowning victim ............... what will happen ?

As the stranger reaches the drowning man , he commands the man (he doesn't politely invite him ... this is a rescue mission not a car sale) to grab hold of him around his neck , and the stranger says "as long as you hang on you will be saved " ................

but the strangest question comes from the lips of the drowning man ..............

he says ................

"Synergism or Monergism" ?

"I just need to know which it is "

because God tells you to do something , is that any reason to get the calculator out and divide the work up ?

What do you think God thinks of looking to divide your salvation up between His work and yours ?

Does it not imply a real desire for a division of praise , gratitude and indebtedness between God and the one saved ?



Is that not both rediculous mean and sinful?

 

[cygnusx1]

Even any Crowns that believers receive at The Day Of Glory will be cast down at Jesus feet .......... Pure Monergism openly admitted!

 

[sojourner]

cygnus,

But what is this I see , a stranger is diving into these treacherous waters and is moving with a strong desire and with great determination to the drowning victim ............... what will happen ?

As the stranger reaches the drowning man , he commands the man (he doesn't politely invite him ... this is a rescue mission not a car sale) to grab hold of him around his neck , and the stranger says "as long as you hang on you will be saved " ................

but the strangest question comes from the lips of the drowning man ..............

he says ................

"Synergism or Monergism" ?

Most analogies get extended to far and lose the purpose, but in this case it does not go far enough. Also the application is in the wrong place.

The Stranger does not command at all. He simply grabs the man and holds him in such a way that any resistance, if there might be, cannot undo the effort. The man will be brought back to the ship, saved.

That is redemption. Stranger (Christ) redeeming, saving that man (mankind). However now the second part comes into play. The man can now have a relationship with this Stranger and live a life of thankfulness and praise of his being saved. But this person can also simply walk away, without giving any graditude or simply not have any kind of relationship with this Stranger. That is the choice of man after Christ saves mankind from death. He can have Union, or reject any kind of relationship. He can leave it at any time he so desires as well.
That is monergism for redemption and synergism for Union with Christ.

 

[cygnusx1]

cygnus,

Most analogies get extended to far and lose the purpose, but in this case it does not go far enough. Also the application is in the wrong place.

The Stranger does not command at all. He simply grabs the man and holds him in such a way that any resistance, if there might be, cannot undo the effort. The man will be brought back to the ship, saved.

Men do resist the Holy Spirit soj , and men are called to repent and have faith in order that they might be saved , not in order to remain saved !
The analogy is fine. Thanks.

That is redemption. Stranger (Christ) redeeming, saving that man (mankind). However now the second part comes into play. The man can now have a relationship with this Stranger and live a life of thankfulness and praise of his being saved. But this person can also simply walk away, without giving any graditude or simply not have any kind of relationship with this Stranger. That is the choice of man after Christ saves mankind from death. He can have Union, or reject any kind of relationship. He can leave it at any time he so desires as well.

men are called to repent and have faith in order that they might be saved , not in order to remain saved !!!

"what must I do to be saved" ?

Soj : "Nothing you are already saved now if you like you can throw it all away " ......

Soj make an attempt at reading the Bible without set beliefs ....... ie , predjudice.

 

[JohnJones]

cygnusx1,

Your little story misses the point altogether. You make it out as if there is a drowning man (a sinner) in the water, and then the savior himself (Jesus) comes and offers him salvation. You've missed the preacher and the invisibleness of Jesus today. Let us revise your story:

Man drowning. Preacher swims out to him and says "believe that Jesus has saved you!" The drowning man beleives and then drowns.

Man drowning. Preacher swims out to him and says "believe that Jesus will save you if you respond to Him in such and such a way" and the drowning man responds in such and such a way, and Jesus comes and safely carries him to the shore.

 

[cygnusx1]

cygnusx1,

Your little story misses the point altogether. You make it out as if there is a drowning man (a sinner) in the water, and then the savior himself (Jesus) comes and offers him salvation. You've missed the preacher and the invisibleness of Jesus today. Let us revise your story:

Man drowning. Preacher swims out to him and says "believe that Jesus has saved you!" The drowning man beleives and then drowns.

So God has already saved Him and then he drowns , ever think of writing a book sometime ..........

Man drowning. Preacher swims out to him and says "believe that Jesus will save you if you respond to Him in such and such a way" and the drowning man responds in such and such a way, and Jesus comes and safely carries him to the shore.

you just don't see it do you , the stranger isn't a preacher It is Jesus Himself !

You have totally missed every point , congrats !!

 

[JohnJones]

So God has already saved Him and then he drowns , ever think of writing a book sometime ..........

The preacher lied.

you just don't see it do you , the stranger isn't a preacher It is Jesus Himself !

That's where your mistake is. Jesus does not directly come to us and save us without a preacher. There must be a preacher. Your story is missing that.

 

[JohnJones]

This is appended to the above post. You must read the above post to know why this post is here. Romans 10:14 says "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Jesus doesn't come save people who haven't been preached to, and he doesn't preach to them himself. There has to be a preacher.

 

[cygnusx1]

So God has already saved Him and then he drowns , ever think of writing a book sometime ..........

The preacher lied.

you just don't see it do you , the stranger isn't a preacher It is Jesus Himself !

That's where your mistake is. Jesus does not directly come to us and save us without a preacher. There must be a preacher. Your story is missing that.

Do you have any idea what an an anology is , cus you will be telling me it doesn't have a cork screw for the wine next ..........

 

[sojourner]

JohnJones,

This is appended to the above post. You must read the above post to know why this post is here. Romans 10:14 says "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Jesus doesn't come save people who haven't been preached to, and he doesn't preach to them himself. There has to be a preacher.

Your attempt to set Cygnus straight has the same fallacy. It is not the saving of the man that is linked to your analogy. The man is saved, all men are saved. But once saved from bondage [death - drowning) he can be called into a relationship with this Stranger in the analogy. If that takes another sailor on this ship, OK, or even a book (Bible) whatever, but the point is the man was saved so that the relationship could take place. The added points, under the judgement of the fall, we were condemned to drown no matter what. We cannot talk of a union or relationship on deck, if we are drowning and will drown for an eternity. That is why this Stranger in the above analogy had to get the man out of the water, (death) before he could attempt to have a relationship with him.

 

[JohnJones]

You shouldn't oversimplify and you shouldn't undersimplify an analogy. If you do, it ceases to be an analogy.

 

[cygnusx1]

You shouldn't oversimplify and you shouldn't undersimplify an analogy. If you do, it ceases to be an analogy.

well that all depends

 

[JohnJones]

Well lets just stick with your "analogy" then: Jesus comes in person and saves someone who's never heard anything about him. How do they perceive him? How do they know he's there? or that he's there to save them? How do they know anything about what's going on?

 

[cygnusx1]

Well lets just stick with your "analogy" then: Jesus comes in person and saves someone who's never heard anything about him. How do they perceive him? How do they know he's there? or that he's there to save them? How do they know anything about what's going on?

That is the first thing you have said that I think has some mileage in it .

Yes indeed , How do we know that God exists , and that Jesus is God's Son , and that The Gospel is the true message , how do we know it isn't all lies , how do we know that Allah , and a thousand other deities aren't in fact the right one , yes , how indeed .

Most assume they just worked it out but do they care to tell us how ?
Do they care to impart their findings to the lost in General apologetics , no , they do not!

yes you have hit on a mystery , have you found out the answer for your self yet ?

 

[JohnJones]

So you are saying that a whole bunch of people who don't know anything about Jesus and have never been preached to are saved.

 

[cygnusx1]

So you are saying that a whole bunch of people who don't know anything about Jesus and have never been preached to are saved.

how can I be saying that , my post is full of questions not answers.