Theistic Evolutionism-Is it the worst kind of infidelity?

reddogs

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2006
9,116
475
✟428,007.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We find many texts in the scriptures that show how God was the Creator..
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth”, Psalms 33:6.

Creation is very clearly laid out especially in Genesis and we see it throuout the Bible. But man has come up with other ideas such as evolution rather than believe that God made things with just a word. Most every time you visit a state park, museum, or display of archeological evidence you are confronted with the question as you read, "Five hundred thousand years ago." or "one million years ago" or "Ten Million Years ago".

There are those who question whether understanding the Creation account as literal or non-literal, affects our understanding of Gods truth. And some Christians have taken a the middle of the fence view when it comes to Creation, and it can have grave consequences. Its Theistic evolution, the belief that God used processes of evolution to create, and it implies that God is bound to the laws of nature, and worse, at least believing “an account of origins at odds with the biblical record of history,” The exact definition is “Theistic evolution (also known as theistic evolutionism or God-guided evolution) is a theological view that God creates through laws of nature”.

The issue at heart is that theistic evolution would alter or modify key doctrines of the Bible. So are the words by writers intended as a literal historical account, as a non-literal reading must provide evidence of specific figurative indicators in the text. So lets look at Genesis 1 on Creation..

“1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God gave names to the dark and light portions of time, calling them “day” and “night.” And after the first day, God then went through six days of Creation as we see..

"6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

"9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.13 And the evening and the morning were the third day."

"14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

"20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day."

"24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

"29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."


Well it is very clear that it was days and the weekly cycle was set up and Sabbath was given to us at creation as the seventh day of the week as we read in the Bible in Genesis.

Genesis 2

"1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"

God created our world in six literal 24-hour days, and rested on the seventh day and "blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it".

Now this gets interesting as Ellen White calls theistic evolutionism "The worst kind of infidelity" because it is "disguised infidelity".....

"I was then carried back to the creation and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created.” God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days...

But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom.

Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves of difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God's rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God's holy law. Some eagerly receive this position, for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. They have limited ideas of the size of men, animals and trees before the flood, and of the great changes which then took place in the earth."... Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobRyan

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,371
10,613
Georgia
✟913,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Many people will admit "The Bible is not a science text book" and yet still affirm the Bible's accuracy when it records for us -
1. The virgin birth (incarnation) of Christ
2. The bodily resurrection of Christ
3. The bodily ascension of Christ to heaven
4. The seven day creation week of Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:11 (so then both in the creation account and in the legal code of Ex 20)
5. The world wide flood of Gen 7-8

Other people will insist that because the Bible is not a science document you can only believe that the virgin birth and bodily resurrection of Christ are valid historic events - and the rest is "myth". But fail to explain how the virgin birth - incarnation of God the Son is a scientifically demonstrated event in history - or how the bodily resurrection and ascension into heaven is a scientifically confirmed event in history.

The OP here seems to ask the question about the impact of deleting certain Bible texts on behalf of "belief in evolutionism".

I for one would not want to delete a single text of scripture on behalf of "belief" in evolutionism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jameslouise
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,953
709
72
Akron
✟72,258.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
We find many texts in the scriptures that show how God was the Creator..
God gives us science to show us HOW He created and how He did what He did. Science goes a long way to show us how accurate and true our Bible is. The more we study Science and the more we study our Bible, the more we see how accurate and true out Bible is.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,953
709
72
Akron
✟72,258.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Infidel geologists
There are a lot of Christian geologists.
Many people will admit "The Bible is not a science text book"
Science is science and religion is religion. Science gives us a lot of evidence that our Bible is accurate and true. Archeology for over 100 years has tested the claims in the Bible to show the Bible is accurate and true.
the rest is "myth".
The Bible is literal truth first, then we look at the symbolism. Words we use are paradigms, archetypes, symbols, homilies, parables, and so on. There are a lot of words we use, but the myth is not one of them because the Bible is 100 percent true. Adam, Eve, Eden, Abraham, Noah, Moses are all real people with real stories to tell.

There is nothing wrong with imagination. But we need to use imagination for good and not evil. We need to abide in the truth and not the lies and deception of the enemy.

There are parts of the Bible we establish on faith. Most of the Bible is fact back up with scientific evidence. This makes it easier for us to have faith in God because a lot if not most of the Bible can be shown to be true.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,371
10,613
Georgia
✟913,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
God gives us science to show us HOW He created and how He did what He did. Science goes a long way to show us how accurate and true our Bible is. The more we study Science and the more we study our Bible, the more we see how accurate and true out Bible is.
Science can show us that something exists and how it works but only the Bible tells us that God created life on Earth in 7 real days. God does not tell us how He did the incarnation, or how He resurrected Jesus or how He was able to create life on Earth fully formed in 7 days, only that He did it.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,953
709
72
Akron
✟72,258.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Science can show us that something exists and how it works but only the Bible tells us that God created life on Earth in 7 real days. God does not tell us how He did the incarnation, or how He resurrected Jesus or how He was able to create life on Earth fully formed in 7 days, only that He did it.
Yes, 7 literal days but those days are a metaphor containing all of time and all mysteries.

This is why we have an oral tradition. "In Kabbalah, each day of creation is seen as a metaphor for a different aspect of reality, and the events described in Genesis are interpreted as symbols that reveal hidden truths about the nature of the universe and the soul. The seven days are considered to contain all of time and all mysteries, as they represent the progression of creation from the first cause to the ultimate reality."
 
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,953
709
72
Akron
✟72,258.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
7 real days.
God created a day and then He made 6 copies of that day. The universe is 13.8 billion years old. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." In the beginning we have Helium. Hydrogen. Lithium. Beryllium. We know that God declares the end from the beginning. (Isaiah 46: 10)
If we understood the first word in the Bible, we would understand all of the Bible.

We are told that a day contains all mysteries and all time. According to Kabbalistic tradition, each day of creation represents a different aspect of God's creative power and a different stage in the evolution of the universe.

  • in the beginning - God started creation
  • the first day - light was created
  • the second day - the sky was created
  • the third day - dry land, seas, plants and trees were created
  • the fourth day - the Sun, Moon and stars were created
  • the fifth day - creatures that live in the sea and creatures that fly were created
  • the sixth day - animals that live on the land and finally humans, made in the image of God were created
  • by day seven - God finished his work of creation and rested, making the seventh day a special holy day.
 
Upvote 0

DialecticSkeptic

Reformed
Jul 21, 2022
376
258
Vancouver
✟45,992.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
"But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, ..."

That argument falls apart when confronted by those Christians who, like myself, are convinced that the universe is billions of years old and that the days of Genesis 1 were literal, normal days. We do not believe they were "seven indefinite periods" but rather a standard week of seven days. Where is the infidelity in that case? There is none. We are old-earth creationists who reject the Day-Age view, instead favoring the Calendar Day view.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,371
10,613
Georgia
✟913,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
That argument falls apart when confronted by those Christians who, like myself, are convinced that the universe is billions of years old
Irrefutable facts:

  • Regardless of how old you/we think the universe is -- the Bible doctrine on origins for all life on planet Earth (not the entire universe) makes it less than 10,000 years.
  • The 7 day creation week of Gen 2:1-3 is put in literal legal code in Ex 20:11 making the time frame of creation week the same as the 7 days at Sinai.
  • No science text promoting belief in evolutionism makes the statement that in six days God created all life on Earth

and that the days of Genesis 1 were literal, normal days. We do not believe they were "seven indefinite periods" but rather a standard week of seven days. Where is the infidelity in that case? There is none. We are old-earth creationists who reject the Day-Age view, instead favoring the Calendar Day view.
SDAs believe that the entire universe existed before Earth was formatted for life and life was placed on it

At the start of day 1 in Genesis - Earth already exists and is covered by water. But we are not told how old it was in its "formless and void" state.

Questions for you:
-- Is that what you call 'old-earth creationist"??
-- do you propose that God evolved life on other planets but created it on Earth?
-- if you are not proposing that life evolved - then how does that affect your response to the post from reddogs about evolution?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

2PhiloVoid

Of course, it's all ...about the Son!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,223
9,981
The Void!
✟1,135,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We find many texts in the scriptures that show how God was the Creator..
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth”, Psalms 33:6.

Creation is very clearly laid out especially in Genesis and we see it throuout the Bible. But man has come up with other ideas such as evolution rather than believe that God made things with just a word. Most every time you visit a state park, museum, or display of archeological evidence you are confronted with the question as you read, "Five hundred thousand years ago." or "one million years ago" or "Ten Million Years ago".

There are those who question whether understanding the Creation account as literal or non-literal, affects our understanding of Gods truth. And some Christians have taken a the middle of the fence view when it comes to Creation, and it can have grave consequences. Its Theistic evolution, the belief that God used processes of evolution to create, and it implies that God is bound to the laws of nature, and worse, at least believing “an account of origins at odds with the biblical record of history,” The exact definition is “Theistic evolution (also known as theistic evolutionism or God-guided evolution) is a theological view that God creates through laws of nature”.

The issue at heart is that theistic evolution would alter or modify key doctrines of the Bible. So are the words by writers intended as a literal historical account, as a non-literal reading must provide evidence of specific figurative indicators in the text. So lets look at Genesis 1 on Creation..

“1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God gave names to the dark and light portions of time, calling them “day” and “night.” And after the first day, God then went through six days of Creation as we see..

"6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

"9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.13 And the evening and the morning were the third day."

"14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

"20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day."

"24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

"29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."


Well it is very clear that it was days and the weekly cycle was set up and Sabbath was given to us at creation as the seventh day of the week as we read in the Bible in Genesis.

Genesis 2

"1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"

God created our world in six literal 24-hour days, and rested on the seventh day and "blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it".

Now this gets interesting as Ellen White calls theistic evolutionism "The worst kind of infidelity" because it is "disguised infidelity".....

"I was then carried back to the creation and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created.” God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days...

But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom.

Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves of difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God's rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God's holy law. Some eagerly receive this position, for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. They have limited ideas of the size of men, animals and trees before the flood, and of the great changes which then took place in the earth."... Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3

Being that I'm not supposed to comment in this forum, I'd like to protest that the charge of infidelity toward other Christians is somehow "safely snuggled" within an SDA forum to prevent any counter-arguments, or even a fair defense against the charge you're implying here. Somehow, this format doesn't seem fair. In fact, I'm not even sure it should be allowed by ChristianForums.

Personally, I find it to be repulsive, especially since I make no bones about working for solidarity with all other Trinitarian Christians.

Just a little food for thought from a fellow traveling Christian brother. :dontcare:
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,371
10,613
Georgia
✟913,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Being that I'm not supposed to comment in this forum
Everyone is allowed to comment on the forum as far as I know -- but in some cases the comment might need to be in the form of a question.
, I'd like to protest that the charge of infidelity toward other Christians is somehow "safely snuggled" within an SDA forum to prevent any counter-arguments, or even a fair defense against the charge you're implying here. Somehow, this format doesn't seem fair. In fact, I'm not even sure it should be allowed by ChristianForums.

Personally, I find it to be repulsive, especially since I make no bones about working for solidarity with all other Trinitarian Christians.

Just a little food for thought from a fellow traveling Christian brother. :dontcare:
Why not post in the form of a question about creation or evolution?
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Of course, it's all ...about the Son!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,223
9,981
The Void!
✟1,135,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Everyone is allowed to comment on the forum as far as I know -- but in some cases the comment might need to be in the form of a question.

Why not post in the form of a question about creation or evolution?

Because even questions can always be formed, or even be interpreted, as "forms" of antagonism.

Oh well. I guess I'll have to put up with all the criticism that comes from other Christians until the Lord returns and clarifies it all for us.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,371
10,613
Georgia
✟913,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Because even questions can always be formed, or even be interpreted, as "forms" of antagonism.
Is it your claim that your post with all of its complaints shows no antagonism but asking a question about creation or evolution does?
 
Upvote 0

DialecticSkeptic

Reformed
Jul 21, 2022
376
258
Vancouver
✟45,992.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Regardless of how old [anyone thinks] the universe is, the [biblical] doctrine on the origin for all life on planet Earth—not the entire universe—makes it less than 10,000 years.

So, then, the biblical doctrine to which you are referring is a kind of creationism, sort of like an old-earth, young-life creationism. But I can’t figure out why you’re calling it THE biblical doctrine on origins, since it is hardly the only one. What you’re describing is A biblical doctrine on the origin of life—one of many.


The seven-day creation week of Genesis 2:1-3 is put in literal, legal code in Exodus 20:11, making the time-frame of creation week the same as the seven days at Sinai.

I already identified myself as someone who affirms that the days of creation week were literal, normal days (and therefore White’s allegation of infidelity finds no mark). I don’t know why you are flexing over a point on which we already agree.


No science text promoting belief in evolutionism makes the statement that in six days God created all life on Earth.

No science text mentions God because, well, they are science texts. It’s sort of like how no engineering text mentions God. If you want texts that mention God, you must look to religion or philosophy texts.


SDAs believe that the entire universe existed before Earth was formatted for life and life was placed on it. At the start of day one in Genesis, Earth already existed and was covered by water. But we are not told how old it was in its "formless and void" state.

Okay. Thanks for sharing that. However, it seems completely unrelated to my response against White’s entirely-too-broad allegation of infidelity. People like Asa Gray and Aubrey L. Moore existed back in her day, so there were good reasons for her to know better. Is it because she was not sufficiently informed regarding the view she was opposing?


Questions for you:

1. Is that what you call old-earth creationist?

2. Do you propose that God evolved life on other planets but created it on Earth?

3. If you are not proposing that life evolved, then how does that affect your response to the post from reddogs about evolution?

1. Your view? Yes, it sounds like a kind of old-earth creationism to me (i.e., young life on an old earth). In fact, it reminds me of the Gap view.

2. Your question implies that “evolved” and “created” are mutually exclusive terms, a presupposition with which I do not agree.

3. To be clear, I am not here to “propose” anything. I was simply demonstrating, against White and the original poster in this thread, that there are forms of old-earth creationism and even theistic evolution that are not guilty of White’s allegation (which targeted the Day-Age view of Genesis 1). The evolutionary creationist position which I hold, for example, holds that the days of creation week were literal, normal days, therefore none of White’s argument can find any traction.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

2PhiloVoid

Of course, it's all ...about the Son!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,223
9,981
The Void!
✟1,135,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Is it your claim that your post with all of its complaints shows no antagonism but asking a question about creation or evolution does?

How can a question not be antagonistic if I'm asking it while being considered by other Christians to be an infidel?

And that's the only question I'll be asking ... brother.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,953
709
72
Akron
✟72,258.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
In his book "Genesis and the Big Bang," Gerald Schroeder notes that in the Hebrew text of the creation story, the first day is referred to as "Yom Echad," which can be translated as "Day One," rather than the more common phrase "first day" ("Yom Rishon").

Schroeder suggests that this distinction is significant because it emphasizes the unique nature of the first day of creation. He argues that the use of the phrase "Day One" instead of "first day" emphasizes that this was the beginning of time itself and represents a fundamental change in the nature of existence.

 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,371
10,613
Georgia
✟913,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
In his book "Genesis and the Big Bang," Gerald Schroeder notes that in the Hebrew text of the creation story, the first day is referred to as "Yom Echad," which can be translated as "Day One," rather than the more common phrase "first day" ("Yom Rishon").

Schroeder suggests that this distinction is significant because it emphasizes the unique nature of the first day of creation. He argues that the use of the phrase "Day One" instead of "first day" emphasizes that this was the beginning of time itself and represents a fundamental change in the nature of existence.

certainly there has been a lot by way of inference and suggestion put into the text. But it is more likely that the time element for Earth begins on day 1 - only because that is when God begins formatting Earth for life -- even though the Earth already existed in a formless and void state prior to that time - covered by water

Having a "before" means there was time before.

God does not make countless stars on day 4 -- rather

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights,​

The stars therefore were made by God at some time prior to that.

Ex 20:11 puts all 7 days of Gen 1-2 in the same time frame as the 7 day week at Sinai
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,371
10,613
Georgia
✟913,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
How can a question not be antagonistic if I'm asking it while being considered by other Christians to be an infidel?
Is there some post on this thread where are being called an infidel? If so I did not find it.

Or are you saying that by the opening post claiming that a certain theory/doctrine/POV is the worst form of infidelity that this is singling individuals out and calling them an infidel?

Is it possible that you hold to a point of view where no theology, no doctrine at all can be a form of infidelity??

Or are you saying that simply calling an opposing view "a form of infidelity" is not a very compelling argument against that POV because it simply casts a pejorative label on the opposing view rather that evaluating the details?? IF this is your point then I agree that anyone can slap "the label" of infidelity on any view that opposes their own. Doing that is not what promotes the validity of one side or the other. But the OP does not make the argument "I called the opposing view a name -- so that makes the opposing view wrong". A ton of details in the OP has to be skimmed over to get it reduced to such a statement.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

2PhiloVoid

Of course, it's all ...about the Son!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,223
9,981
The Void!
✟1,135,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Is there some post on this thread where are being called an infidel? If so I did not find it.

Or are you saying that by the opening post claiming that a certain theory/doctrine/POV is the worst form of infidelity that this is singling individuals out and calling them an infidel?

Is it possible that you hold to a point of view where no theology, no doctrine at all can be a form of infidelity??

Or are you saying that simply calling an opposing view "a form of infidelity" is not a very compelling argument against that POV because it simply casts a pejorative label on the opposing view rather that evaluating the details?? IF this is your point then I agree that anyone can slap "the label" of infidelity on any view that opposes their own. Doing that is not what promotes the validity of one side or the other. But the OP does not make the argument "I called the opposing view a name -- so that makes the opposing view wrong". A ton of details in the OP has to be skimmed over to get it reduced to such a statement.

Which "ton of details" in the OP are you specifically referring to, Bob?
 
Upvote 0