disturbed

[Debi1967]

And btw to simply believe in the Lord and have Faith in Him are actions that we do daily so therefore if we are performing these actions then we are performing works in God's name.

Faith without works is dead....

And how do we get to Heaven? By Grace alone for we all are sinners and not deserving of heaven.

 

[Simon_Templar]

NT Wright made a statement that was very true, and he received alot of flak for it from various reformed and protestant Christians because it doesn't fit well with their theology, despite the fact that it is an entirely biblical concept.

I don't have the exact quote available but it was something to this effect...

Final Judgement is based upon the totality of the lived life.

In other words, every person, believers included, when they face final judgement is judged upon the fruit that they have produced in their life.

This is the key to understanding the verses that speak about a person who has tasted of God's goodness and then fall away, that they can not be saved again because it is crucifying Christ again.. (bad paraphrase I know)..

This passage is explained by the image of a field which has received rain and sunshine, but then produced weeds and thorns.

What this refers to is the fact that even someone who is born again, and a Christian, will be ultimately judged by what they produce with their life. God has given them every good thing.. but what is the fruit of what God has given them?

The things that God gives are compared to the rain, the sunshine etc.. what the actual results are in a person's life, are the fruit.

Thus, a person may receive all good things from God, but if they do not submit to those things, and allow them to manifest, but instead follow their own will and insist on living the flesh, even being born again will not produce good fruit.

The issue here is not one of works, but one of submission to grace. Grace is often misunderstood as simply an excuse. You are excused for everything you do wrong if you have grace.
On the contrary grace is always a call to action, and most importantly, an empowerment to action.

In the twisted view of many modern christians, receiving grace, and then yeilding the fruit of that grace is often portrayed as "works". This is not a biblical view at all. Grace is given for a purpose, which is its fruit. To receive grace, and then NOT produce the fruit is to make the grace of no effect and essentially an attempt to mock God.

Those verses which talk about the end state of the person who repents and then falls away being worse than the beginning could be seen to be refering to the final state as well, though I'm not as sure on those because I haven't looked at them in as much detail. However, they are reminiscent of what Jesus said to the towns in which he ministered in Galilee.. he said it would be better for Sodom and Gomorrah on judgement day because if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen the miracles that those towns saw... they would have repented.

All of this shows as well that there are degrees of judgement. An idea which is not commonly accepted within modern protestant circles.

 

[Criada]

1 Corinthians 3:
11 For no-one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,

13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.

14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.

15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames

This seems connected somehow. A man is judged by his works - but still saved by faith.
But what does the last verse mean - how can he 'suffer loss' and yet be saved...
Don't quite understand, as this seems to imply some kind of hierarchy of salvation.
Can one person be 'more saved' than another? Doesn't seem right.
So - what does this passage mean?
Ideas, anyone?

 

[DerSchweik]

1 Corinthians 3:
11 For no-one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,

13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.

14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.

15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames

This seems connected somehow. A man is judged by his works - but still saved by faith.
But what does the last verse mean - how can he 'suffer loss' and yet be saved...
Don't quite understand, as this seems to imply some kind of hierarchy of salvation.
Can one person be 'more saved' than another? Doesn't seem right.
So - what does this passage mean?
Ideas, anyone?

Good post!

Personally, I think Paul is talking to the Corinthians about building up Christ's body, the church, their work being the adding to the body of Christ - I think in context he is talking about true Christ-centered Christians, not worldly-minded professers of Christ. He is continuing his admonishment of them for their own fleshly/worldly attitudes of identity, "I am of Paul," "I am of Apollos" (v4 and also chapter 1). In verse 9, he says "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building" speaking of the "Corinthian fields" - they are Paul's and Apollos' work - and in this context, if they (the Corinthians) remain faithful, then Paul and Apollos will have their reward, not only what God gives them, but the Corinthians themselves.

I see what you are asking - regarding some being "more saved" than others - and I agree, I don't think that is a correct way to view it. Rather, all are saved alike, yet some will receive greater rewards, above and beyond the common salvation we all share.

If the Corinthians work to build up the body of Christ with true, faithful Christians, by evangelizing and harvesting the fields prepped for them by Paul and Apollos, and discipling the young converts to become mature Christians, then they will receive the reward that comes from such work. But if those they convert end up either "falling away" or not truly converting in the first place, then their work is for naught and while they will be saved, it will only be as if barely so (emphasis on "as if") - just as if a contractor builds a house, only to see it burn to the ground; he remains, but his work is lost to fire.

At least, that's how I read this passage.

In Him,

 

[DerSchweik]

Here you go. As I said it took me a lot of time to write it. I didn't have time just then
to rewrite it, so I'm sorry you had to wait.

It is right JohnChapter14 to be concerned regarding those verses. Do not be deceived by some teachings that attempt to throw out verses such as those dismissing them by saying that the people weren't saved to begin with as by evidence of what those verses clearly state, that just isn't true. Paul warns us also, to be careful if we think we stand lest we fall.

You mentioned Hebrews 6:4-6
Check out also Hebrews 10:26-31

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

People ask, "can someone lose their salvation"?

I do not believe people "misplace" or "lose" their salvation, but I do believe it is quite possible for people to "give up", "give in" or otherwise forfeit it.

{Edited out for brevity - please see the original for the complete text}

Excellent post!

It is true, while we cannot "lose" our salvation, we can certainly forfeit it or give it up. The passages you cite are excellent to this point.

While we are "saved by grace" (Eph 2:8), Jesus also points out rightly that salvation comes as a result of endurance, "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved" (Mt 24:13) and perserverance, "By your perseverance you will gain your lives" (Lk 21:19). "But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul" (Heb 10: 39).

I understand those who fear such statements as these. But we must all "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" - it is a terrible disservice (with dire consequences to both teacher and student) to teach any Christian that they are immune to sin now that they have been saved - and that is what they teach who teach that once one is saved they are always saved. It simply has no consistent, coherent scriptural support to make such a claim. True, no one can "snatch" a Christian from Christ's fold, for no one has that power; but this in no way implies that one cannot leave the fold of their own accord. And amid persecutions and temptations to sin, the weak in faith can quit, can give up, can cease to endure and persevere against both - to the loss of their souls.

So we must encourage (rather than deceive) one another daily, and allow ourselves to be encouraged daily. Daily pray, daily read His word, daily do His will for us, daily spend time with other faithful Christians so that we will NOT be discouraged and quit.

In Him,

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

If we truly belong to Him then we don't have the right to give Him up. He is bigger than that.

I agree with all the discussion surrounding the importance of obedience and having a saving or living faith. My username pretty much sums that up but if we are truly grafted in the Vine we are His and we don't have the right to shove it back in His face.

We might try but if He has chosen us then one day He WILL call us back. I have seen this happen with my own eyes to others around me.

God is in control.

Love you guys.

 

[DerSchweik]

I want to agree with this.
But - there is a difference between being 'snatched' and leaving voluntarily, I think.
Being saved does not negate free-will.

Insightful point, Criada. I agree wholeheartedly and believe the Bible supports this assertion.

No one can "snatch" from Jesus who are His (i.e. Christians) - but Christians can leave Him of their will, but quitting, by not persevering, by not enduring to the end.

LivingLifeHisWay raises an important distinction though. It is important to distinguish "falling back" (my phrase) and "falling away." We all "fall back" to some degree anytime we sin, but we confess, repent, seek His forgiveness, and move forward again.

Those who "fall away" do so permanently, having become callous to His love through repetitious, willful sin, to the point their decision is permanent, to the point Christ's death for them no longer has meaning. Such is the nature and deceitfulness of sin and this is why we cannot ever treat it lightly, which I believe is what teaching "once saved, always saved" does - naively dismissing the deceitfulness and subtle destructiveness of sin.

I understand the comfort "once saved, always saved" gives - but it is a false comfort, and mis-interprets Jesus. Honestly, I wish it were otherwise! I wish I had heaven right now and no longer needed to deal with sin in my life. I am tired of striving against temptation every day and I long for the day I will no longer have to do so - but that's what heaven is all about - the promise! The hope!

"For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it." (Rom 8:24f).

To suggest we have now what is promised us in heaven (immunity from sin) is an attempt at hope seen - i.e. not hope at all! We are freed from sin, yes! (Rom 6:7), but we are not immune to sin, otherwise Paul would not have admonished us just a couple verses later, "do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts" (Rom 6:12). Brothers and sisters, the NT is replete with admonitions to persevere, to endure, to "work out our salvations with fear and trembling" lest we fail to enter into His rest. Please understand what Jesus was saying in John 10:27ff in its proper context and meaning. Belief is not a one-time event - its a lifetime of effort in endurance and perseverance (NOT works) in this world that we make it to the end - as one of His.

In Him,

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

Those who "fall away" do so permanently, having become callous to His love through repetitious, willful sin, to the point their decision is permanent, to the point Christ's death for them no longer has meaning.

Would you agree that even if a person did "fall away" as you suggest they could still be called back by God?

 

[DerSchweik]

Would you agree that even if a person did "fall away" as you suggest they could still be called back by God?

No. I think the Bible is clear on the issue that, by definition, "falling away" is a permanent choice by the one who does - "...it is impossible to renew them [who have fallen away] again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame" (Heb 6:6). It seems clear God cannot call, or renew such a one as this back.

However, what I think you are referring to is what I labeled "fallen back" (which is just my own phrase). I too know Christians who have fallen back into sin and stepped away from the Lord for a period, and then have been convicted of their sin, confessed it, repented and sought (and received) forgiveness for it.

We have all "fallen back" at times in our Christian walk, sometimes for a moment, sometimes for days, weeks, months, I don't know - even years perhaps. Anytime we sin, and for the duration of the sin, we are "fallen back."

And it is God's kindness that leads us back to repentance. And all Christians have, do, and will again sin and need His kindness once again. Such is life on this earth and in these bodies.

Fortunately, Christ's death, burial, and resurrection has released us from the power of sin, that we needn't obey its lusts any more. And we are urged to stand firm against temptations to sin - but the reality now is that we still do sin, hopefully less and less as we mature in Christ, but nevertheless, we do sin and we have an advocate in Jesus when we do. Amen!

But "falling away" is different than "falling back" (again, just my phrase). Falling away is so serious as to be eternal, permanent, without hope of renewal. God can call back the latter, but not the former - any more than He can call any unrepentant unbeliever to Him, for such have made God their enemy and they express their enmity for Him in their wanton sin. Moreover, what makes the "fallen away" so hopeless is that they once tasted God's kindness, but turned their back on it, and Him - much like Judas perhaps.

So it is very important to understand the distinction.

I hope I made myself clear??? Please, if you question this at all or have trouble with what I've said, let me know and we can discuss it further, ok?

In HIm,

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

No. I think the Bible is clear on the issue that, by definition, "falling away" is a permanent choice by the one who does - "...it is impossible to renew them [who have fallen away] again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame" (Heb 6:6). It seems clear God cannot call, or renew such a one as this back.

However, what I think you are referring to is what I labeled "fallen back" (which is just my own phrase). I too know Christians who have fallen back into sin and stepped away from the Lord for a period, and then have been convicted of their sin, confessed it, repented and sought (and received) forgiveness for it.

We have all "fallen back" at times in our Christian walk, sometimes for a moment, sometimes for days, weeks, months, I don't know - even years perhaps. Anytime we sin, and for the duration of the sin, we are "fallen back."

And it is God's kindness that leads us back to repentance. And all Christians have, do, and will again sin and need His kindness once again. Such is life on this earth and in these bodies.

Fortunately, Christ's death, burial, and resurrection has released us from the power of sin, that we needn't obey its lusts any more. And we are urged to stand firm against temptations to sin - but the reality now is that we still do sin, hopefully less and less as we mature in Christ, but nevertheless, we do sin and we have an advocate in Jesus when we do. Amen!

But "falling away" is different than "falling back" (again, just my phrase). Falling away is so serious as to be eternal, permanent, without hope of renewal. God can call back the latter, but not the former - any more than He can call any unrepentant unbeliever to Him, for such have made God their enemy and they express their enmity for Him in their wanton sin. Moreover, what makes the "fallen away" so hopeless is that they once tasted God's kindness, but turned their back on it, and Him - much like Judas perhaps.

So it is very important to understand the distinction.

I hope I made myself clear??? Please, if you question this at all or have trouble with what I've said, let me know and we can discuss it further, ok?

In HIm,

I guess my only question would be.... what would someone have to "do" in order to qualify as "fallen away"...

 

[Bananna]

Fallen away, fallen back... same

One cannot be of Christ when they are rejecting Christ. There is not sin that God cannot forgive other than The state of being in rebelion. As soon as you repent you are no longer in that state of fallen away.

You can't get to Heaven without the author of life as king of your life, if you could... that would crucify christ again. Making what he did of no value.

bananna

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

Fallen away, fallen back... same

One cannot be of Christ when they are rejecting Christ. There is not sin that God cannot forgive other than The state of being in rebelion. As soon as you repent you are no longer in that state of fallen away.

You can't get to Heaven without the author of life as king of your life, if you could... that would crucify christ again. Making what he did of no value.

bananna

So what if a Christian cursed when he was 18 years old, never repented of it but went on to live for God...would he go to hell?

 

[Debi1967]

So what if a Christian cursed when he was 18 years old, never repented of it but went on to live for God...would he go to hell?

I think this is answered easily ....

What if he didn't remember and that is why he never repented? Then God would base his judgement upon his heart condition and that is why we take into account our whole lives.

Now what if he did remember and just did not repent? Well then I think that answer is up to God.

Either way judgement is always left up to God in the end.

 

[DerSchweik]

I guess my only question would be.... what would someone have to "do" in order to qualify as "fallen away"...

Honestly, I won't even venture a guess as to what that would be - I think only God could be the judge of that. I'm sure we've all done egregious things in our lives, but Christ's blood covers so much...

I tend to think (just "tend", mind you) though that it wouldn't necessarily be any one thing we do particularly, rather a series of things, successively worse, each one callousing us more and more, each one building our enmity for God a little each time, until such a point as... I don't know. I only know that sin is serious and nothing to be trifled with. And satan's deceptions are serious too, and also nothing to trivialize.

So it is that much more important we take daily pains to stay in His word, continue fellowshipping with each other (as we are now - and in our churches and small groups, whatever), continually encouraging one another, continually praying for one another, continually being devoted to one another so as to thwart the wiles of satan who truly hates us and is at war with us. It is a daily battle! Were that not so, we would not have the encouragment to persevere and endure to the end.

We shouldn't be overly discouraged when we sin (though we must take it seriously) because we do have an advocate in Christ, who loves us, and gave Himself for us. God's grace is not a reason to continue in sin, that His grace might increase (Romans 6), rather we should live in His grace and not allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies.

I'm hoping this is encouraging you...

 

[DerSchweik]

Fallen away, fallen back... same

One cannot be of Christ when they are rejecting Christ. There is not sin that God cannot forgive other than The state of being in rebelion. As soon as you repent you are no longer in that state of fallen away.

You can't get to Heaven without the author of life as king of your life, if you could... that would crucify christ again. Making what he did of no value.

bananna

Banann...

Respectfully, I disagree re the two definitions, though you are correct to say we cannot be in Christ and be in rejection of Him at the same time.

"Fallen back" is just a term I coined to distinguish between when a Christian sins (and we still sin) and when a Christian turns away from Christ, rejecting Him permanently. I don't want it given much weight as any sort of definitive terminology.

What we "do" (to use LivingLife's phrase) to accomplish the latter is something only God can judge, in my mind - but we can, and must correct each other when we sin so as to repent and turn back to Him.

The issue here is rejecting Christ, which is "falling away" from Him, for which there can be no return - as it would crucify Christ to us again, putting Him to open shame (Heb).

But that we can sin as Christians, and still return to Him in repentance, is part of God's mercy towards us, that He does not count this sin against us as it is covered by Christ's blood.

I think we're all pretty much in accord with this, except for those select few who hold that it is impossible to be a Christian and ever fall away.

That teaching is actually not good news for some Christians, for those weak in their faith, or those of very tender hearts who, when they do sin, are tempted to over-discouragement - for that teaching stipulates that should one ever reject Christ, then they were never Christians in the first place, which is contrary to His word. Moreover, it is a horrible situation to be in having sinned, however egregiously, and always be in doubt as a result if you were "truly" saved. I know its purpose is security in one's faith, but the reality ends up being the opposite.

In His Love,

 

[Bananna]

Banann...

Respectfully, I disagree re the two definitions, though you are correct to say we cannot be in Christ and be in rejection of Him at the same time.

"Fallen back" is just a term I coined to distinguish between when a Christian sins (and we still sin) and when a Christian turns away from Christ, rejecting Him permanently. I don't want it given much weight as any sort of definitive terminology.

What we "do" (to use Living Life’s phrase) to accomplish the latter is something only God can judge, in my mind - but we can, and must correct each other when we sin so as to repent and turn back to Him.

The issue here is rejecting Christ, which is "falling away" from Him, for which there can be no return - as it would crucify Christ to us again, putting Him to open shame (Heb).

But that we can sin as Christians, and still return to Him in repentance, is part of God's mercy towards us, that He does not count this sin against us as it is covered by Christ's blood.

I think we're all pretty much in accord with this, except for those select few who hold that it is impossible to be a Christian and ever fall away.

That teaching is actually not good news for some Christians, for those weak in their faith, or those of very tender hearts who, when they do sin, are tempted to over-discouragement - for that teaching stipulates that should one ever reject Christ, then they were never Christians in the first place, which is contrary to His word. Moreover, it is a horrible situation to be in having sinned, however egregiously, and always be in doubt as a result if you were "truly" saved. I know its purpose is security in one's faith, but the reality ends up being the opposite.

In His Love,

Christian by strict definition is a follower of the teachings of Christ.

Most Christians do not follow the teachings of Christ, but rather their understandings of the teachings of Paul. (I'm not making a judgment either way just a point of technical distinction)

One cannot be Christian and fall away technically. God cannot fail to save his chosen.

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
:9 ¶ But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

This passage follows the people of God wandering in the dessert as a stiff necked people that actually had the pillar of smoke and fire among them day and night.

The Greek says 'fallen by the side' and is an exaggeration in the sense that "worst case scenario". Like those fallen in the desert that did not get to the promised land.

If God does not keep his covenant it would make Christ’s work meaningless.

"For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed to him against that day."

 

[Jim47]

So what if a Christian cursed when he was 18 years old, never repented of it but went on to live for God...would he go to hell?

I understand what you are saying, but what you have said is impossible. One can not refuse to repent and in the same instance go on to love his life for God.

What happens when we refuse to repent even of the smallest sin is that we are refusing The Holy Spirit and His work. The Holy Spirit works repentance in our hearts, without His work we would all be dead in our sins.

So to answer your question, no one can refuse to repent and still be saved. Repentance requires acknowleding your sin, feeling sorrow for your sin and asking Jesus to wash your sin away. All 3 of these things are gifts of The Holy Spirit.

I've always wondered how since He has His hands full with me, that He has any time left for others I say that with a wink, but I also mean it as well. Thankfully He has time for everyone

 

[Bananna]

So what if a Christian cursed when he was 18 years old, never repented of it but went on to live for God...would he go to hell?

My personal belief is that one would have to continually be cursing God himself to be in a state of non repentance on that particular issue. Going on to live for God is repentance. Now if they think they can curse God on occasion without remorse and still be living for God they are deceived.

My standard for the age of accountability runs with the ancient rabinical teachings... they are a bit detailed but in general about 12 for young ladies and 13 for young men. By that age we should have our children trained in the basics of Lawful and Godly behavior.

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

Regardless of what our personal beilefs may be regarding "falling back", "falling out", "once saved always saved" or any other term that was used it seems that we all place a great importance on living for the Lord, abiding in Him and following His teachings.

And that my friends is so awesome!!!!!

It's very refreshing and encouraging to be surrounded by others who don't take sin lightly and live by the Spirit.



~Christina

 

[DerSchweik]

Christian by strict definition is a follower of the teachings of Christ.

Most Christians do not follow the teachings of Christ, but rather their understandings of the teachings of Paul. (I'm not making a judgment either way just a point of technical distinction)

One cannot be Christian and fall away technically. God cannot fail to save his chosen.

This passage follows the people of God wandering in the dessert as a stiff necked people that actually had the pillar of smoke and fire among them day and night.

The Greek says 'fallen by the side' and is an exaggeration in the sense that "worst case scenario". Like those fallen in the desert that did not get to the promised land.

If God does not keep his covenant it would make Christ’s work meaningless.

"For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed to him against that day."

Understood, but the Israelite example is linked to us today by referencing "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh," which obviously is a reference to the recent crucifixion of Christ from the time of the Hebrew letter.

That God will keep His covenant with us is indisputable - but covenants by definition are two-sided and wouldn't you agree it is possible for us to break our covenant with Him? That's all I am saying.

Perhaps more to the point though is the fact that no one has the power to break the covenant for us - thus separating us from the Lord; that is what I think Jesus is talking about when He says He won't lose any that are His.