disturbed

[RMDY]

I was reading 2 Peter today and read up to 2 Peter 2:20 and I was disturbed by it:

What does it mean to "fall away" from Christ? How can people fall away from Christ? I thought that even if people fall away from Christ, such as new christians, or new reborn christians, that they could still be forgiven if they confessed their sins and repented.
In Hebrews Chapter 6 it talks about putting Christ to shame by being crucified to him again.
And in Matthew 12 it talks about a spirit going away and then coming back to its old place and finding it all swept clean and put in order and bringing 7 more wicked spirits than It to the place it use to dwell and making it worse than before.
I am very disturbed by this.
I know a lot of christians that become devoted, start be moved by the Holy Spirit, but struggle with putting old sin-nature behind them because of old passions and desires that keep lingering. I believe God's mercy stretches far to the east and the west and His love knows no bounds, but...in those chapters, I've been disturbed and I feel confused. Can someone help me here?

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2 Peter 2:20-22



And God permitting, we will do so. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
Hebrews 6:3-7


"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."
Matthew 12:43-45

 

[3girls2dogs]

One of my favorite verses is this:

2Corinthians:16-19

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

I'm not sure how that fits into this argument, but when I read the OP, this is immediately what came to mind.

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

Hi there

I have a John MacArthur study Bible and the notes are really good for detailed interpretation.

Let's have a look see:

First off these scriptures you are speaking of have to deal with False Teachers and their followers, not genuine Christians.

2 Peter 2:20-21 (NASB)

20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Notes: Defilements: this word has the idea of putrid or posionous vapors. Morally, the world gives off a deadly influence. Peter notes that at some point in time, these
false teachers and their followers wanted to escape the moral contamination of the world system and sought religion, even Jesus Christ on their terms, not His. But these false teachers never genuinely been converted to Christ. They heard the true gospel and moved toward it, but then rejected the Christ of that gospel. That is apostasy.

21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Notes: This verse describes the perversion and defection of the false teachers. They professed the Christian experience and even had access to the true teachings of Scripture. But by their lives they demonstrated that they ultimately had chosen to reject Christ.


He is also quoted elsewhere: Sin in the believer is a burden which afflicts him rather than a pleasure which delights him.

I hope this helped a little.

~Christina

 

[RMDY]

Then how do you get re-crucified to Christ? What happens if someone is re-crucified to Christ and puts Him "to shame"?

 

[Bananna]

Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.

For me to sin is to put Christ to shame. Strong metephore. Sin is defined as lawlessness or missing the mark.

The oposite would be "If you love me keep my commandments"

"

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

You can sweep out the house, but if you do not fill it with the word of God then all manner of unclean thoughts and spirits will reside there instead of Yeshua.

In practicality I find this illustration that we cannot of our own clean up our act. I must read scripture daily. I must commune with God daily. I must clean out the garbage daily.

When evil from my past comes to mind I must quote scripture to correct my thinking and speach and actions.

HTH
bananna

 

[RMDY]

But God, being merciful, and being a loving father, will want those he predestined to come back to him, won't he?

 

[Criada]

But God, being merciful, and being a loving father, will want those he predestined to come back to him, won't he?

He wants everyone to come back to Him.
But - He also gives us free-will, so if we choose to reject what He has given us, we can.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Hi JohnChapter14,

I did have a lengthy response to your questions which took me awhile to type and then the window shut suddenly and it was all gone. I will try to repost later. I have run out of time right now....

 

[RMDY]

really, how come? Why did the window shut suddenly?

 

[IamRedeemed]

Let's see....

1. Could be because I had too many windows open.....

2. Could be that I had too many windows and programs running

3. Could be that I had too many windows open, programs running and ftp open.

4. Could be that I had all of those things open and the my spyware/virus program started its automatic scan and overloaded the system.

5. Could be that there are errors in my recent firefox install.

6. Could be the enemy didn't want you to hear it.

Take your pick! lol

 

[RMDY]

Well, can you tell me what you were originally going to say to me =)

 

[IamRedeemed]

Here you go. As I said it took me a lot of time to write it. I didn't have time just then
to rewrite it, so I'm sorry you had to wait.

It is right JohnChapter14 to be concerned regarding those verses. Do not be deceived by some teachings that attempt to throw out verses such as those dismissing them by saying that the people weren't saved to begin with as by evidence of what those verses clearly state, that just isn't true. Paul warns us also, to be careful if we think we stand lest we fall.

You mentioned Hebrews 6:4-6
Check out also Hebrews 10:26-31

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

People ask, "can someone lose their salvation"?

I do not believe people "misplace" or "lose" their salvation, but I do believe it is quite possible for people to "give up", "give in" or otherwise forfeit it.

One very dangerous thing to do is to keep such long accounts (not fellowshipping with the Lord regularly, reading the Word day and night renewing our ways of thinking and thereby opening the door for the Holy Spirit to shine the light so that we may see and confess to the Lord the sin in our lives until we no longer "practice" sin, thereby growing farther and farther away, rather than growing, changing and bearing fruit evident of a sanctified life and become lacodasical and the voice of the Holy Spirit becomes more and more faint as they subconsciously or consciously for one reason or another ignore those promptings, until eventually their consciences become seared and they "fall away" as their hearts grow cold.

Jesus said that those who endure until the end will be saved, it is those who endure until the end that will receive a crown of life. If we are not enduring anything, (denying our flesh in itself is one form of endurance) and are not being hated for His name's sake, we might want to double check and see why that is, as servants we are no better than our master, and if they hated Him, and they did (enough to kill him) they will hate us also. If unbelievers who won't come to the Lord, through us and our testimony, think we are a "cool" Christian, and they like having us around, we might want to do a self examination and learn why that is.

Jesus even said that before He returns there will be a "great falling away". You cannot 'fall away' from something you were never a part of.

Add to your study John 15:1-6 and Romans 8:12-14



John 15:1-6

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


Romans 8:12-14

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

How is one who is called a branch, cut away from the vine due to no fruit and thrown into a heap to be burned if one was not a part of the vine to begin with?

Jesus said the path that leads to life is a narrow one and there are few that go in by it. There is a lot more to walking with the Lord than saying a sinner's prayer and attending church regularly etc...those are well and good, but those are religious "dos" but there are spiritual dos and don'ts that the Lord is interested in.

Those that believe they were given liberty to live a sinful life through Christ as they are "not under the law" need to check these verses out, as they are gravely deceived and in for a rude awakening.

What many don't seem to realize is that what we were made free from (besides the penalty of sin) is the bondage of sin. We are no longer slaves to sin, but through Christ are now able to make a choice to serve righteousness rather than sin, and if we are truly His, if we say we love Him, we will make those choices.

Many people I have noticed who believe that you cannot fall away also believe there are no works involved. Both of those are lies. If you work in your flesh without Christ to try to earn your way into heaven, that is correct, your work will be fruitless, but your "work" which consists of choosing righteousness over sin, that the Holy Spirit has empowered you to do, as a result of your gratefulness to the Lord must follow your faith if you say your faith is in the Lord, because faith without works is dead. The Lord honors those who honor Him and His ways. God is looking for fruit-bearers. If we bear no fruit, we will be cut off from the vine. In the natural if we have a vine and there are dying branches (or think of any houseplant) if we do not cut off the branches, they are as dead weight sucking off of the rest of the branches, they won't survive, but they will kill other branches, and if the plant gets overloaded with dead branches eventually it will kill the whole plant. In the spiritual we can see that exact thing happening in Churches today. Some are dead and others are in the process of dying. They have many members, but are filled with dead men's bones. There is evidence of the dead branches sucking on the live ones, right here in these very forums, and this is indicative of what is going on in the Churches although many people that boldly defend their lives of sin here, would probably not proclaim that to their Pastors, but meanwhile they are hurting babes in Christ, by putting a stumbling block before them, by claiming they belong to Christ,even love Christ, but do not live according to the Word and do not pursue the Kingdom and all its righteousness, as representatives of Christ, therefore the world cannot tell the difference between the saved and the lost, few are getting healed, few are having demons cast out of them, few are getting victory because they act as though they are still helpless slaves, except now they have a "license" in their mind through false teaching and are expecting to receive their ultimate rewards because they have head knowledge of Christ. That's not going to happen. Belief in Christ is not head knowledge. Jesus says in Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say?"

Jesus was beaten to the point that if it weren't for His skeletel frame, He would not be recognizable as a man.

We think that because there is no requirement as in "list of things for us to do first" to come to Him, that once we do, their is nothing required of us. That is the greatest lie of the enemy. It isn't "free" in the sense that it is being taught. It will cost us all that we are and all that we have. We must die to self. We must be crucified with Christ. Jesus said that even a man before going off to war, stops to count the cost." Jesus is telling us to count the cost.

Luke 14:25-33
"And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

"Jesus Christ Superstar" is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
If we hold unforgiveness in our hearts, we cannot be forgiven. Read the parable of the wicked servant. Jesus said that "the Kingdom of Heaven is likened to a certain King that would take account of his servants."And He goes on to tell the parable. This is a parable of a saved man. He was forgiven of the King and pardoned all his debt when he cried out for mercy because he couldn't pay the debt that he owed, just like mankind. (Not pay it and live that is.)
And the first thing he did was go to one who owed him 1% of what he owed and grabbed him by the throat demanding his money, when that one begged for mercy, and promised to pay all, he showed him none and had him thrown into debtors prison until he paid every last penny! When the King heard of this, he called him a wicked servant because he had shown the man mercy but the man showed none for his fellow servants, even though they were repentent and goodwilled to pay the debt, and the wicked servant was turned over to the tormentors until he paid all that he originally owed before he was forgiven. and Jesus said, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

Matthew 18:23-35

The Church needs to stop preaching the feathery fluffy message, and start preaching the WHOLE Gospel because people are going to go to hell, (uncountable people already have) that would otherwise have chosen life, (because they thought they did) had they known what was required of them.

We need to stop comparing ourselves to Joe and Jill Christian and believing compared to them, we must be in good shape and start comparing ourselves to Christ, so that we can see a more perfect realistic image of where we are at, and use God's Word to reflect as a mirror the condition of our souls and then run to the mercy seat accordingly, in Jesus name.

Then how do you get re-crucified to Christ? What happens if someone is re-crucified to Christ and puts Him "to shame"?

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

But what about this verse:

John 10:27-29> My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

God loves us so passionately that it makes most feel terribly uncomfortable. Why would He love us? It makes no sense but it's the truth, He does. If we are truly saved we are in His hand and nothing will snatch us away. Even if we give up, even if we give it all back one day He will draw us to Him b/c only He can.

 

[Criada]

But what about this verse:

John 10:27-29> My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

God loves us so passionately that it makes most feel terribly uncomfortable. Why would He love us? It makes no sense but it's the truth, He does. If we are truly saved we are in His hand and nothing will snatch us away. Even if we give up, even if we give it all back one day He will draw us to Him b/c only He can.

I want to agree with this.
But - there is a difference between being 'snatched' and leaving voluntarily, I think.
Being saved does not negate free-will.

 

[RMDY]

This has stood out:
If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. (2 Timothy 2:21-22). Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good. (1 Peter 2:1-2)Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.(1 Peter 2:11)

 

[Bananna]

But God, being merciful, and being a loving father, will want those he predestined to come back to him, won't he?

My understanding is that

Those whome he forknew he therefore predestined.

Knowing the end from the beginning each of us has a purpose. Those predestined for Wrath were chosen from the end at the beginning for the purpose.

My understanding of distruction is total... not eternal suffering.

For evil to reside in the presence of God would be truly cruel. Therefore in the end the evil will be totally anialated.

For Good to remain in the presence of God is truely Heaven on earth.

There are those that do believe not one shall parish, because they can't believe a loving God would creat a person for destruction. However Paul quotes the Tanak when he says God has the right.

What we need to remember is that humanism teaches that we decide what is righteous. However Scripture teaches that God has ordained what is righteous from the foundation of the earth. Instead of thinking something can't be righteous, we need to cunsult the scriptures and let God tell us what is righteous. We need to be conformed to the image of Christ through the washing of the word of God.

bananna

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

I want to agree with this.
But - there is a difference between being 'snatched' and leaving voluntarily, I think.
Being saved does not negate free-will.

Yes, we do have freewill but the bottom line is if we belong to Him; He wins and no matter how stubborn we are, no matter how far we run - He will eventually bring us back to Him.

I know of a person who was a committed Christian but then fell away from the Lord severly. 20+ years later they woke up in the middle of the night in full blown repentance out of the blue. If that's not God calling back His own, I don't know what is.

 

[Jim47]

JohnChapter14

I was reading 2 Peter today and read up to 2 Peter 2:20 and I was disturbed by it:

What does it mean to "fall away" from Christ? How can people fall away from Christ? I thought that even if people fall away from Christ, such as new christians, or new reborn christians, that they could still be forgiven if they confessed their sins and repented.

I understand your concern as I think this is something we've all gone through, I know I have. The problem is that while we live this life we will never leave sin behind us, and the burden of sin convicts us of guilt and sorrow, but this is what God wants, for that guilt and sorrow over our sin leads us to the cross of Christ where He washes away every stain and we are made a new creation in Him, but again, not perfect in this life.

Here is what you can take comfort in. If you feel guilt and sorrow over yiur sins, then The Holy Spirit is still at work in you and you have not lost your faith, for the guilt and sorrow are the works of The Holy Spirit to lead us to our Savior.

Ro 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ro 3:24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Ro 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Ro 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Ro 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

My favorite bible passage in all scripture in part is in my signature. About 19 years ago I became very ill for over a year. At one point I was quite certain that I would die. It was during that year that God called me to read and study scripture, but the more I read the more dismayed I became, until I found the promises God gave us in Ephesians 2:1-10.

Made Alive in Christ
Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


I had read the bible about 5-6 times that year besides reading the NT many more times, but it took me several times before my eyes were opened and I was able to out my trsut in God's promises and no longer put my trust in what I called "my faith". I became fully aware that I had been putting my trust in my own faith instead of putting my faith in the One who is faithful and has the power to save.

 

[stone]

I was reading 2 Peter today and read up to 2 Peter 2:20 and I was disturbed by it:

What does it mean to "fall away" from Christ? How can people fall away from Christ? I thought that even if people fall away from Christ, such as new christians, or new reborn christians, that they could still be forgiven if they confessed their sins and repented.
In Hebrews Chapter 6 it talks about putting Christ to shame by being crucified to him again.
And in Matthew 12 it talks about a spirit going away and then coming back to its old place and finding it all swept clean and put in order and bringing 7 more wicked spirits than It to the place it use to dwell and making it worse than before.
I am very disturbed by this.
I know a lot of christians that become devoted, start be moved by the Holy Spirit, but struggle with putting old sin-nature behind them because of old passions and desires that keep lingering. I believe God's mercy stretches far to the east and the west and His love knows no bounds, but...in those chapters, I've been disturbed and I feel confused. Can someone help me here?

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2 Peter 2:20-22



And God permitting, we will do so. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
Hebrews 6:3-7


"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."
Matthew 12:43-45

sounds like a tare chokeing out the roots of the wheat?

 

[Debi1967]

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.
Mat 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.