Distorting God's word

[peace4ever]

As always, scientists have to distort God's Word in order to try to make scientists omniscient but God a liar. Of course, scientists will always look foolish by claiming to be more omniscient than God, but nevertheless looking foolish isn't as important to them as being deceived into believing they know better than God does what the truth is.

The following is one small example of how scientists think they can fool God. They take parts of the bible out of context with the rest of the bible which is no different than quoting part of a sentence and not all of it. For example, they take a sentence like; "God sends everyone to hell except those who accept Christ's atonement", and only quote the first part so that it reads; "God sends everyone to hell" and pas that along as what God says. Of course that's not what God says, but scientists aren't interested in what God says, only what they want people to think God says.

So they do that with the quotes in the bible about the earth being a circle. Instead of putting that verse together with the verses that talk about the flatness of the earth, they pass it along that God says the earth is flat, which couldn't be further from the truth.

When you put those verses together you get; the earth is a circle (which never rules out a sphere), on which flat lands do exist. That's why man calls prairies flat, but they're not saying that the earth is flat. Many poets and writers talk about the "ends of the earth" or even the "edges of the earth" as a description of what the earth looks like as far as the eye can see. They are not claiming that the earth is flat any more than God is. So when you take God's words out of context with the rest of the bible, you will always misquote Him and distort his words.

But the bottom line is; your words & the words of scientists will die when you(they) die. But God's words can never be erased because the truth can never go away. So it's a waste of time to try to prove God is a liar because you have to know more than he does to prove that. That means you would have to be omniscient which you can never be. So you only look foolish trying.

 

[Mallon]

[FONT=&quot]How does the Bible describe the shape of the Earth?[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Job 38:13-14[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Isaiah 40:22[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Matthew 4:8[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Daniel 4:10-11[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Psalm 19:4[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Their voice [a] goes out into all the earth, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] their words to the ends of the world. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Psalm 104:2[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He wraps himself in light as with a garment; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] he stretches out the heavens like a tent[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Bible describes the Earth as flat.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How does the Bible describe the movement of the Earth?[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]1 Samuel 2:8[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor. “For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's; upon them he has set the world.”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]1 Chronicles 16:30[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Job 38:4[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Psalm 96:10[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns.” The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Psalm 104:5[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Psalm 93:1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]…The world is firmly established;
it cannot be moved.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Bible describes the Earth as immovable.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What is the Earth’s foundation?[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Job 9:6[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Psalm 75:3[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Bible describes the Earth as resting on a foundation of pillars.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How does the Bible describe the heavens?[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Genesis 7:11[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Genesis 8:2[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 28:12[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none.”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]2 Kings 7:2[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“The officer on whose arm the king was leaning said to the man of God, ‘Look, even if the LORD should open the floodgates of the heavens, could this happen?’ [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ‘You will see it with your own eyes," answered Elisha, "but you will not eat any of it!’”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Job 37:18[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Malachi 3:10[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“‘Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,’ says the LORD Almighty, ‘and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.’”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 1:22[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Bible describes the heavens as a solid, crystalline dome above the Earth, with windows to allow the heavenly waters through.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How does the Bible describe the movement of the Sun?[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Joshua 10:12[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: “O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Psalm 19:4-6[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Ecclesiastes 1:5[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Habakkuk 3:11[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sun and moon stood still in the heavens at the glint of your flying arrows, at the lightning of your flashing spear.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Psalm 50:1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Mighty One, God, the LORD, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] speaks and summons the earth [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] from the rising of the sun to the place where it sets.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The Bible describes the Sun as moving about the immobile Earth in a circuit. It was said to “stand still” by Joshua’s command.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How does the Bible describe the stars?[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Isaiah 14:12[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How you have fallen from heaven, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] O morning star, son of the dawn! [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] You have been cast down to the earth, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] you who once laid low the nations![/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Daniel 8:10[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:29[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Immediately after the distress of those days [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] " 'the sun will be darkened, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] and the moon will not give its light; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] the stars will fall from the sky, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Mark 13:25[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]the stars will fall from the sky, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Revelation 6:13[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Revelation 12:4[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth…[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Bible describes the stars as pinpricks of light set in the firmament, and as capable of falling to Earth.

[/FONT]Please show us all how you can get a spherical-earthed, heliocentric cosmology out of that. You can't, unless you hypocritically do that which you accuse others of by denying God's word.

 

[crawfish]

Peace:

What the information above makes it clear is that the uber-literal reading that YEC requires for early Genesis cannot hold up throughout scripture. At some point, you begin to have to take alternate meanings of words or take some scripture symbolically or understand it from a different perspective, but in any case it is still an abstraction from the pure literal content.

 

[LightSeaker]

As always, scientists have to distort God's Word in order to try to make scientists omniscient but God a liar. Of course, scientists will always look foolish by claiming to be more omniscient than God, but nevertheless looking foolish isn't as important to them as being deceived into believing they know better than God does what the truth is.

All that Scientist are doing is showing us what God's own Creation is doing. That's all. If there's an issue here, it's that the Creation Story that God's own Creation is showing us paints a different picture than what scripture shows.

.

 

[Sphinx777]

A scientist, in the broadest sense, refers to any person that engages in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge or an individual that engages in such practices and traditions that are linked to schools of thought or philosophy. In a more restricted sense, scientist refers to individuals who use the scientific method. The person may be an expert in one or more areas of science.

 

[vossler]

Wow, I'm gone for a few weeks and someone new comes in and takes on the fight. Great to have you here, however take it from someone who's been here awhile, you're wasting your breath. Most TEs don't seek knowledge they're just here to defend their ideas, certainly not God's Word. Welcome to the mayhem!

The following is one small example of how scientists think they can fool God. They take parts of the bible out of context with the rest of the bible which is no different than quoting part of a sentence and not all of it. For example, they take a sentence like; "God sends everyone to hell except those who accept Christ's atonement", and only quote the first part so that it reads; "God sends everyone to hell" and pas that along as what God says. Of course that's not what God says, but scientists aren't interested in what God says, only what they want people to think God says.

So they do that with the quotes in the bible about the earth being a circle. Instead of putting that verse together with the verses that talk about the flatness of the earth, they pass it along that God says the earth is flat, which couldn't be further from the truth.

When you put those verses together you get; the earth is a circle (which never rules out a sphere), on which flat lands do exist. That's why man calls prairies flat, but they're not saying that the earth is flat. Many poets and writers talk about the "ends of the earth" or even the "edges of the earth" as a description of what the earth looks like as far as the eye can see. They are not claiming that the earth is flat any more than God is. So when you take God's words out of context with the rest of the bible, you will always misquote Him and distort his words.

You've hit the right chord here, anyway you can twist something to support your view is acceptable. Sadly what they never realize is that they are using the world and its ways to support their own worldly ideas while in the process dismissing the only Truth that exists.

But the bottom line is; your words & the words of scientists will die when you(they) die. But God's words can never be erased because the truth can never go away. So it's a waste of time to try to prove God is a liar because you have to know more than he does to prove that. That means you would have to be omniscient which you can never be. So you only look foolish trying.

Amen

 

[Mallon]

Most TEs don't seek knowledge they're just here to defend their ideas, certainly not God's Word. Welcome to the mayhem!
You've hit the right chord here, anyway you can twist something to support your view is acceptable. Sadly what they never realize is that they are using the world and its ways to support their own worldly ideas while in the process dismissing the only Truth that exists.

It's amazing how much you can accuse others of not being faithful to God's word, when I'm the only one to have actually cited the Bible in reference to how it describes the shape of the earth. If you think you can provide an alternate biblical explanation that fits our 21st century perspective of the cosmos, by all means feel free.

 

[crawfish]

Wow, I'm gone for a few weeks and someone new comes in and takes on the fight. Great to have you here, however take it from someone who's been here awhile, you're wasting your breath. Most TEs don't seek knowledge they're just here to defend their ideas, certainly not God's Word. Welcome to the mayhem!

Sometimes it's harder to hold one's tongue than other times.

 

[juvenissun]

[FONT=&quot]How does the Bible describe the shape of the Earth?[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Job 38:13-14[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.[/FONT]

Give a long list is a very poor way to argue about anything (it is be a good reference, though. Thanks for that).

Take the first one of the list: I can see it is a perfect way to explain the shape of the earth. It is formed (made) under a general physics law (the seal): gravity force. The same force (seal) made all celestial bodies of this universe. No one can describe the origin and the shape of the earth any better and any more precise than this one.

Same type of argument can be applied to EVERYONE on the list.

Evolutional scientist could misinterpret God's word whenever they like to. Creational scientist can always see God's beautiful creation in His words.

 

[Mallon]

Here's a picture of an ancient piece of clay stamped with a seal, juvie:

Notice that it is flat, like a pizza. The seal (called a bulla) is from Jerusalem and dates back 2000 years.

Now, do you really think that the author of Job was referring to the forces of gravity acting to gradually shape the globe (which occurs over millions of years, I might add)? Gravity wasn't even recognized as a force until the 16th and 17th centuries.
Or do you think that maybe -- just maybe -- the author of Job was referring to the bulla above, which was commonplace in his time and culture? Which scenario do you think illustrates the author's original intention? Which takes less twisting of the Scripture?

 

[vossler]

It's amazing how much you can accuse others of not being faithful to God's word, when I'm the only one to have actually cited the Bible in reference to how it describes the shape of the earth. If you think you can provide an alternate biblical explanation that fits our 21st century perspective of the cosmos, by all means feel free.

Citing His Word doesn't in anyway imply or suggest that you are being faithful to it or that you are defending it. Rather you and others continually attempt to show how it isn't trustworthy and untrue by attempting to tear it down. You take your sacred truth of evolution and do everything in your capacity to defend it, even if it means tearing down the Truth of God's Word. I personally can't support anyone who considers themselves a Christian who is constantly attempting to find error or fault in God's Word. It would be one thing if you questioned it because of a lack of understanding, but sadly that's not the case. What is clear to me is that for the TE man's knowledge supercedes God's Word. This is why I no longer attempt to defend God's Word with TEs, it is only on rare occasion that I find a TE who loves the Word of God to the point they where they see it as superior to man's knowledge.

 

[shernren]

Citing His Word doesn't in anyway imply or suggest that you are being faithful to it or that you are defending it.

But suppose I proved a point using Scripture alone without any reference to contemporary science.

Surely you would agree with me that such a point would be Scriptural?

 

[Mallon]

Citing His Word doesn't in anyway imply or suggest that you are being faithful to it or that you are defending it. Rather you and others continually attempt to show how it isn't trustworthy and untrue by attempting to tear it down. You take your sacred truth of evolution and do everything in your capacity to defend it, even if it means tearing down the Truth of God's Word. I personally can't support anyone who considers themselves a Christian who is constantly attempting to find error or fault in God's Word. It would be one thing if you questioned it because of a lack of understanding, but sadly that's not the case. What is clear to me is that for the TE man's knowledge supercedes God's Word. This is why I no longer attempt to defend God's Word with TEs, it is only on rare occasion that I find a TE who loves the Word of God to the point they where they see it as superior to man's knowledge.

You talk a lot, but I'm still the only one here who has presented a cosmology fully supported by the Scriptures. And this isn't an invention of my own intended to defend evolution, as you say. The cosmology I presented is the same one accepted in one form or another by the Christian church for most of history, the details of which are given in this video series:
BEYOND THE FIRMAMENT Science and Christian Education Page 1
The point is, the scientific concordism you espouse is bankrupt. The Bible obviously does not align with 21st century science, certainly not without twisting and distorting its intended meaning, as I showed juvie. Does that make the Bible untrustworthy? Only if you buy into the scientism of the atheists, who insist that the only true knowledge is that which aligns with science. Or you can opt for an accommodationist hermeneutic, which states that the Bible "is the Word of God given in the words of men in history", as G.E. Ladd put it. Christians, including yourself and peace4ever, have opted for the latter wherever the Bible references the shape and movement of the earth. I'm only suggesting you apply the principle consitently rather than selectively.
If you continue to reject an accommodationist approach in favour of a concordist approach, then the onus is on you to demonstrate that the Bible accurately describes the physical universe. Good luck with that.

 

[crawfish]

Citing His Word doesn't in anyway imply or suggest that you are being faithful to it or that you are defending it. Rather you and others continually attempt to show how it isn't trustworthy and untrue by attempting to tear it down. You take your sacred truth of evolution and do everything in your capacity to defend it, even if it means tearing down the Truth of God's Word. I personally can't support anyone who considers themselves a Christian who is constantly attempting to find error or fault in God's Word. It would be one thing if you questioned it because of a lack of understanding, but sadly that's not the case. What is clear to me is that for the TE man's knowledge supercedes God's Word. This is why I no longer attempt to defend God's Word with TEs, it is only on rare occasion that I find a TE who loves the Word of God to the point they where they see it as superior to man's knowledge.

We TE's are the ones who respect scripture enough to not make it say what we want it to say. No TE here is trying to tear down the Truth of God's word. We are trying to separate the "truth" of man's interpretation from the Truth that God intends. By pointing out how God's word is unsatisfactory for describing science rather than trying to retrofit the poetic and descriptive words in an out-of-context way to explain what we now know, we see scripture in a much purer sense.

 

[juvenissun]

Here's a picture of an ancient piece of clay stamped with a seal, juvie:

Notice that it is flat, like a pizza. The seal (called a bulla) is from Jerusalem and dates back 2000 years.

Now, do you really think that the author of Job was referring to the forces of gravity acting to gradually shape the globe (which occurs over millions of years, I might add)? Gravity wasn't even recognized as a force until the 16th and 17th centuries.
Or do you think that maybe -- just maybe -- the author of Job was referring to the bulla above, which was commonplace in his time and culture? Which scenario do you think illustrates the author's original intention? Which takes less twisting of the Scripture?

No. It is NOT flat. It has relief. That is the whole point of "clay under a seal".

 

[juvenissun]

We TE's are the ones who respect scripture enough to not make it say what we want it to say. No TE here is trying to tear down the Truth of God's word. We are trying to separate the "truth" of man's interpretation from the Truth that God intends. By pointing out how God's word is unsatisfactory for describing science rather than trying to retrofit the poetic and descriptive words in an out-of-context way to explain what we now know, we see scripture in a much purer sense.

If that shows how much faith you have, I am very sorry about it. In fact, I think it is quite s****d (no offense). If that were true, I don't want to trust that god.

 

[Mallon]

No. It is NOT flat. It has relief. That is the whole point of "clay under a seal".

It's still a flat piece of clay, juvie.
Will you guys stop at nothing to deny the plain the meaning of Scripture? It's amazing how inconsistent your hermeneutic is: on the hand, arguing that Genesis must be read as a scientifically-accurate account of earth's creation; on the other hand, explaining away every reference the Bible makes to a flat-earth, geocentric universe. Does this kind of doublethink not bother you?

 

[LightSeaker]

If that shows how much faith you have, I am very sorry about it. In fact, I think it is quite s****d (no offense). If that were true, I don't want to trust that god.

I’d just like to point out that it in no way effects a mans faith in God if they see the Bible as being about man’s relationship with God and not as a science book.

.

 

[crawfish]

If that shows how much faith you have, I am very sorry about it. In fact, I think it is quite s****d (no offense). If that were true, I don't want to trust that god.

I would argue that you are putting your faith and trust into the wrong things. Martin Luther showed great faith when he rejected Copernicus on biblical grounds; but that was a misdirected faith. Understand that I do not think that God holds that kind of faith is held against him (or you) - perfection in understanding is not a prerequisite for eternal life.

I think you would agree that the bible was NOT inspired for misuse; when you use it against its purposes it does not contain the same power. I do not believe that scientific concordism was intended or even implied for scripture, so I believe that to take it as so is to use scripture for uninspired purposes, and thus, ultimately empty.

 

[Assyrian]

No. It is NOT flat. It has relief. That is the whole point of "clay under a seal".

So when people talk about 'flat earth' it really means denying there is such a thing as mountains and valleys?