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Dispensationalism

Christos Anesti

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What is the origin of the Dispensationalist interpretation of the Bible? Most of what I've read traces it back to John Darby and the Brethren Movement in the 1800's. Does it have any root at all in Christian thought prior to that? Is there any evidence that Christians taught this view in say the first 1,500 or so years of Christianity? When providing evidence that such an understanding existed I would appreciate if people could use writings other than the Bible. I'm looking for verification that people actually understood the Bible in the manner of a dispensationalist and not for the proof texts for dispensationalism.
 

Markea

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What is the origin of the Dispensationalist interpretation of the Bible?

I think that first and foremost you should describe what you believe Dispensational interpretation is ? I'm sure there are varied opinions so what's yours ?

Most of what I've read traces it back to John Darby and the Brethren Movement in the 1800's. Does it have any root at all in Christian thought prior to that? Is there any evidence that Christians taught this view in say the first 1,500 or so years of Christianity?

I can't speak for Christianity as a whole with respect to what has been taught... although it's obvious that there are seemingly limitless opinions as to what has been taught by Christians over the centuries.

If your interpretation of Dispensationalism is with respect to a literal and future thousand year reign of Christ on earth... then I think that this has been discussed as early as the first couple of centuries by men like Iraeneus in his book Against Heresies. I think that it's CH 35 or somewhere around there.

Contrast this with Amillennialism (which is what the EOC teaches) and I think that it came into view much later, around the time of Augustine etc.

When providing evidence that such an understanding existed I would appreciate if people could use writings other than the Bible. I'm looking for verification that people actually understood the Bible in the manner of a dispensationalist and not for the proof texts for dispensationalism.

As mentioned, I think that it's undeniable that men like Iraeneus understood the bible with respect to a literal future reign of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth.
 
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Christos Anesti

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As mentioned, I think that it's undeniable that men like Iraeneus understood the bible with respect to a literal future reign of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth.

I wouldn't deny that he and some of the Fathers of the early Church might have looked to a future 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. That is an important part of Dispensationalism (in that it wouldn't work without it) so in regard to that issue I can see that it has some precedence in past Christian thought.

One of the things that really sticks out to me about Dispensationalism is that it denies that the Church is truly the Israel of God. Does this have precedence within the mainstream of Christianity , was it something taught maybe by early Judeo Christian sects, or is this something Darby came up with ?

Another thing that really stands out is the doctrine of pre-trib rapture. That seems to have just appeared on the horizon out of no where and taken off to be a belief held to by probably millions of people.
 
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Christos Anesti

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Contrast this with Amillennialism (which is what the EOC teaches)

I wouldn't agree with the term Amillennialism becuase it implies that we reject the existence of a millenium. The Church teaches that the millenium of grace is in fact real and that it is happening right now. It was inagurated with the birth of our Lord. It will conclude at the Lords second coming. Satan is bound but will be loosed for a little season before the second coming of Christ.

and I think that it came into view much later, around the time of Augustine etc

I know that St Victrinus ,Origen, ST Dionysius of Alexandra, and Clement of Alexandria were not pre-millenialists. They pre-date St Augustine.

"Those years wherein Satan is bound are in the first advent of Christ, even to the end of the age; and they are called a thousand, according to that mode of speaking, wherein a part is signified by the whole. He says, the thousand years should be completed, that is , what is left of the sixth day, to wit, of the sixth age."
-St Victronius

St Justin Martyr while having the theological opinon that pre-millienialism was true , being an honest person, admited that other good Christians of his time rejected the view. This leads to me to believe that he held it as an opinon and not as doctrine. It also proves that among early Christians were those who rejected the premillenialist view. :

"I and many others are of this opinion [premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."[
- St Justin Martyr
 
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Markea

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I wouldn't deny that he and some of the Fathers of the early Church might have looked to a future 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. That is an important part of Dispensationalism (in that it wouldn't work without it) so in regard to that issue I can see that it has some precedence in past Christian thought.

So if that's what you were inquiring about, then it is something that has been within the realm of Christian thought from very early on.

One of the things that really sticks out to me about Dispensationalism is that it denies that the Church is truly the Israel of God.

I think that the scriptures do show a distinction between the Israel of God and its earthly ordinances as compared to the church of God and its heavenly citizenship. This of course is another ball of wax entirely but makes for good discussion.

What makes you believe that the church of God is the Israel of God ?

The church of God is being built by God now based upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the Son of God. This was not possible in the OT because the Lord Jesus Christ was not yet manifest in the flesh. There's one simple distinction and there are many others if you'd wish to continue discussing it.

Does this have precedence within the mainstream of Christianity , was it something taught maybe by early Judeo Christian sects, or is this something Darby came up with ?

I think that Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles) makes it clear that there is a distinction, and that Christians should not be ignorant of the mystery pertaining to national Israel.. how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

Another thing that really stands out is the doctrine of pre-trib rapture. That seems to have just appeared on the horizon out of no where and taken off to be a belief held to by probably millions of people.

Again, I think that the scriptures do reveal that the church of God will be taken up prior to the Day of the Lord and that Israel will then be taken through the great tribulation as Rev 12 speaks to. Again, great topics to discuss if you'd like.
 
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Markea

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I wouldn't agree with the term Amillennialism becuase it implies that we reject the existence of a millenium. The Church teaches that the millenium of grace is in fact real and that it is happening right now. It was inagurated with the birth of our Lord. It will conclude at the Lords second coming. Satan is bound but will be loosed for a little season before the second coming of Christ.

You're basically agreeing with Amillennial thought here in believing that the millennial reign of Christ is taking place right now. I certainly do not believe that because of the scriptures which teach that Satan is the god of this present evil world.

IMO, Rev 20 is clearly within a future context, it is not something which is taking place right now. The earth is still under the sway of the wicked one and Satan is not bound. Gentiles have dominion of the world and this too is shown to end in Rev 11 when the Kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ.

St Justin Martyr while having the theological opinon that pre-millienialism was true , being an honest person, admited that other good Christians of his time rejected the view. This leads to me to believe that he held it as an opinon and not as doctrine. It also proves that among early Christians were those who rejected the premillenialist view. :

Who's to say that there were not just as many Christians who rejected the amillennial view ?

"I and many others are of this opinion [premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."[
- St Justin Martyr

No doubt about it, many Christians see things differently.
 
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Christos Anesti

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Who's to say that there were not just as many Christians who rejected the amillennial view ?

There may have been. I was showing that so called "amillenialism" wasn't something that St Augustine came up with but that it existed from the get go.


I understand that the term is often applied to what my Church teaches but I don't think the word itself is not an accurate description of the teaching. If we accept the existence of the millennium how can we be Amillianilist? We simply disagree with literalists on the nature of the millennium and do not claim that it's non-existent all together.

You're basically agreeing with Amillennial thought here in believing that the millennial reign of Christ is taking place right now. I certainly do not believe that because of the scriptures which teach that Satan is the god of this present evil world.

I probably have a different understanding of what it means for him to be bound. He can be bound and still be the god of this present evil world. I will post some patristic quotes on this subject that I think would make the orthodox understanding a little more clear when I get some time but my son wants on the computer so he can play his WWII game now.:sorry:

I think that the scriptures do show a distinction between the Israel of God and its earthly ordinances as compared to the church of God and its heavenly citizenship. This of course is another ball of wax entirely but makes for good discussion

Some NT Scriptures do reference Israel according to the flesh. What I'm talking about is the wholesale rejection of the Church being the Israel of God at all. Is there any precedence for this? I understand that everyone has proof texts that they consider to support their theory on issues like this and that isn't really what I'm looking for. Did any of the early Christians understand the bible as having taught this? Is this something that wasn't discovered in the Bible until say the 1800's or so?

The earth is still under the sway of the wicked one and Satan is not bound

If satan was still unbound how did Christianity spread throughout the entire world bringing in millions of converts?

Again, I think that the scriptures do reveal that the church of God will be taken up prior to the Day of the Lord and that Israel will then be taken through the great tribulation as Rev 12 speaks to. Again, great topics to discuss if you'd like.

Again I'm more interested in the history of that understanding of the Scripture. I see no evidence that it existed prior to the 1800's. I may be wrong though.
 
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M

mannysee

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What is the origin of the Dispensationalist interpretation of the Bible? Most of what I've read traces it back to John Darby and the Brethren Movement in the 1800's. Does it have any root at all in Christian thought prior to that? Is there any evidence that Christians taught this view in say the first 1,500 or so years of Christianity? When providing evidence that such an understanding existed I would appreciate if people could use writings other than the Bible. I'm looking for verification that people actually understood the Bible in the manner of a dispensationalist and not for the proof texts for dispensationalism.

"I can pretty confidentially tell you that the system of dispensational theology is a Nineteenth Century phenomenon in the history of the church"
http://www.fpcjackson.org/resources...ogy & Justification/Ligons_covtheology/09.htm

Duncan calls himself a historical theologian.
The article linked above only skims the surface in regard to your specific question, but you could perhaps email this church and ask to be directed toward reading material about specific names/movements in history.

The system itself has been called "a moving target".
So you are probably going to find in your research a certain form of dispensationalism (chialism?) represented at its beginning, if any.
 
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Jazer

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What is the origin of the Dispensationalist interpretation of the Bible?
The dispensation is the age of Grace. So it would have begun with Paul. The early church fathers talk about the Grace of God. The modern theory would have begun with Martin Luther. Wesley puts it all in perspective when he teaches that we are to live Holy before God. Just as James brings balance to Pauls teaching on the subject.
 
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Markea

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There may have been. I was showing that so called "amillenialism" wasn't something that St Augustine came up with but that it existed from the get go.

Well then you failed to show how amillennialism existed from the get go.

I understand that the term is often applied to what my Church teaches but I don't think the word itself is not an accurate description of the teaching. If we accept the existence of the millennium how can we be Amillianilist? We simply disagree with literalists on the nature of the millennium and do not claim that it's non-existent all together.

I understand what you're saying, amillennialism doesn't say that there is not a milllennial kingdom, but rather that it is happening now... and that there is not a future millennial kingdom of Christ on earth.

I think that is blatantly false because I do read Rev 20 in a future context and I believe that it's possible to know for certain that it is in the future.

I probably have a different understanding of what it means for him to be bound. He can be bound and still be the god of this present evil world. I will post some patristic quotes on this subject that I think would make the orthodox understanding a little more clear when I get some time but my son wants on the computer so he can play his WWII game now.:sorry:

I would like to hear some explanations of why people think or believe that Satan is bound when the scriptures tell us plainly that he is the god of this present evil world, that he takes men captive at his will, and that the whole world is under the sway of the wicked one...

Some NT Scriptures do reference Israel according to the flesh. What I'm talking about is the wholesale rejection of the Church being the Israel of God at all. Is there any precedence for this?

The bible. I asked you to tell me why it is that you believe that the Israel of God is the church of God, and you didn't do that. Did you know that there is not one single verse in the scriptures which teaches that the Israel of God is the church of God... so I'm interested in WHY you would believe that it is.

I understand that everyone has proof texts that they consider to support their theory on issues like this and that isn't really what I'm looking for. Did any of the early Christians understand the bible as having taught this? Is this something that wasn't discovered in the Bible until say the 1800's or so?

I'm sure that there were many Christians who could read the scriptures and see no reference to Israel being the church etc etc... in fact, all one would need to do is read Romans 11 and then not ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel which Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles) warns Christians of... how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.

Do you understand what GENTILE means... ?

n was still unbound how did Christianity spread throughout the entire world bringing in millions of converts?

By the power of the GOSPEL OF GOD concerning HIS SON with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven.

The TRUTH sets us free from the lies of Satan.

Your comment implies that truth cannot dispel lies if Satan is free... although the scriptures make it clear that Satan is the god of this present evil world and that the world lies under the sway of the wicked one. WHEN any person hears the gospel of God concerning His Son and believes in HIM, then they now have power to overcome the lies and deception of Satan.

How did people in the OT trust in God if Satan was not bound then... the same way, right...

Again I'm more interested in the history of that understanding of the Scripture. I see no evidence that it existed prior to the 1800's. I may be wrong though.

Again, please tell me what it is that makes you believe that the Israel of God is the church of God, and we can take it from there.
 
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Christos Anesti

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Read Romans 11

The olive tree is Israel. The Jews who reject Christ are cut off. Gentiles are grafted in [to Israel] . These gentiles and the faithful remanant of the Jews (The Apostles and other Jewish converts) constitute the Church.

See also,

Galatians 3:7-29

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"

Look at who the New Covenant is to be made with in Jeremiah 31:31-34 .,

" I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. "

I would also point to Ephesians:

"you Gentiles in the flesh . . . were [once] separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel . . . But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near . . . So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints"
Ephesians 2:11–13, 19

I can provide more but I'm looking into the history of a certain understanding of the Scriptures and this could really side track the discussion.

What is often called "supercessionism" has been the teaching not only of the Orthodox Church, but also the Roman Catholic Church, Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East ("Nestorian Church"), Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Reformed,... It's been the teaching of historical Christianitiy for over 2,000 years*. The Reformers didn't even reject it. In fact to my knowledge the radical reformers didn't even reject it. It wasn't until around 1800's that people started rejecting it. If anyone disagrees I would like to see some historical evidence that people had a problem with this teaching of those Churches prior to the 1800's. If they didn't then "the Church isn't spiritual Israel" would seem to be a modern inovation wouldn't it?

*ST Justin Martyr ( 100 to 165 AD): "For the true spiritual Israel ... are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ."

Origen ( 185-254) "The Christian people then is rather Israel."
 
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Chris81

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The modern theory would have begun with Martin Luther.
No, not true! My uncle, a Lutheran Pastor, gave me a rather heavy book on Luther's teachings on Revelations. After reading that book I can say with quite certainty that Luther was an Amillennialist and believed nothing at all similar to what Dispensationalist believe.
 
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Biblewriter

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Some attempt to disparage Dispensationalism by claiming that was never taught in the entire history of the church prior to the nineteenth century, when it was formalized by John Nelson Darby and his associates. This argument is totally inappropriate, for the only acceptable test of a doctrine is whether or not it agrees with scripture. Further, no argument such as this has any merit because it is well known that in the medieval period the monks systematically purged church libraries of all material that did not meet with the approval of the current leadership of the church. So the truth is that we simply do not know what the early church taught about many subjects. But some unapproved material slipped through the censors. This came mostly from the few of these ancient writers that made concepts that the medieval monks construed as supporting the concept of the Papacy.

But further to this argument lacking merit and being inappropriate, it is also simply incorrect.

The most significant distinctive of dispensational doctrine is a future, literal fulfilment of Bible prophecy.

The earliest Christian commentator on Bible prophecy know to modern scholars was Papias, who was reputed to have been a personal acquaintance of the Apostle John himself. The medieval censors destroyed essentially everything Papias wrote. But in the fourth century Eusebius reported (in his famous book titled “The Church History,” Book 3, chapter 39,) that Papias had said that “after the resurrection of the dead there will be a thousand-year period when the kingdom of Christ will be established on this earth in material form.” This was unquestionably an application of the concept of a future, literal fulfilment of Bible prophecy. Eusebius then went on to say that “many church writers after him held the same opinion, relying on his early date; Irenaeus, for example, and any others who adopted the same views.” It is critical to notice that one word “many.” The absence of “many” such documents in church libraries is proof of the censorship noted above.

From this we also see that this opinion was shared by “many” of the earliest Christian writers. But more light is shed on this subject by Jerome, who wrote in the fifth century that, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, ..." Here again we find a doctrine of a future, literal fulfilment of Bible prophecy. But for the present discussion the most significant part of this comment was his allegation that this was “the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian church.”

So we see that a future, literal fulfilment of Bible prophecy was not only taught in the early church, it was taught by the two earliest Christian writers on the subject and also by an overwhelming majority of the early Christian writers on Bible prophecy.

A direct derivative of the dispensational concept of a future, literal fulfilment of Bible prophecy is the dispensational concept of a future literal restoration of the ancient nation of Israel. This can also be found in ancient writings of the church.

In the third century, Hippolytus wrote his “Treatise on Christ and Antichrist.” Near the beginning of Section 25 of this treatise we read:

“Daniel also says (in the words), "I considered the beast, and lo there were ten horns behind it, among which shall rise another (horn), an offshoot, and shall pluck up by the roots the three (that were) before it. And under this was signified none other than Antichrist, who is also himself to raise the kingdom of the Jews.”

In the fourth century Cyril of Jerusalem wrote a series of “Catechetical Lectures.” in section twelve of lecture 25 he wrote concerning the prophecied Antichrist that:

“At first indeed he will put on a show of mildness (as though he were a learned and discreet person), and of soberness and benevolence: and by the lying signs and wonders of his magical deceit a having beguiled the Jews, as though he were the expected Christ, he shall afterwards be characterized by all kinds of crimes of inhumanity and lawlessness, so as to outdo all unrighteous and ungodly men who have gone before him displaying against all men, but especially against us Christians, a spirit murderous and most cruel, merciless and crafty”

In both of these articles we notice the use of the words “the Jews.” If they had said “Israel,” it might be possible to imagine that they were speaking metaphorically of the church. But the use of the words “the Jews” eliminates that possibility. And the second quotation further reinforces that conclusion by opposing the words “the Jews” to “us Christians.”So we see clear references to a future “kingdom of the Jews,” and thus to a future revival of the ancient nation of Israel, in ancient church writings.

But the most distinctive feature of dispensationalism is the concept of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Many claim that this was never taught before the nineteenth century, when Darby popularized the doctrine. But this is simply not true. There is an ancient sermon, titled "on the Last Times, Antichrist, and the End of the World," that refers to an impending fall of the Roman Empire. Since this fall occurred in the year 476, it must have been written before that date. In any event, some manuscripts of this sermon are known to have been church libraries by the year 800. Three ancient copies of this sermon claim it was written by Ephraem. Scholars call the writer Pseudo-Ephraem, because they do not think it could have been the famous Ephraem the Syrian. But I do not like calling him this, because it implies dishonesty, and neglects the fact that it could have been written by another person who was also named Ephraem. It does not claim to have been written by Ephraem of Syria. It only claims to have been written by Ephraem. Also, a fourth ancient copy of this same document says it was written by Isidore of Seville. All four of these ancient copies were written in Latin, and there are also ancient Greek and Syraic versions of this same sermon. The existence to this day of six ancient manuscripts of this document, in three different languages, conclusively proves that it was widely circulated in ancient times.

Section 2 of this sermon begins with the following words:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.”

There could hardly be a more clear statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Yet this was almost certainly written before the end of the fifth century, and some scholars estimate its date as late in the fourth century, and was unquestionably widely circulated during the first millennium of Christianity. So the claim that this doctrine originated in the nineteenth century is completely incorrect.

There is also other evidence of the antiquity of this doctrine of a pre-tribulation, also dating from about the same time. In a book called “Homilies on Second Thessalonians,” John of Crysosyem, who lived in the latter part of the fourth century, wrote concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:7 that:

“One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholdeth, that is, hindereth him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers.”

Here the writer observes that some were teaching that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 was “the grace of the Spirit.” He then adds his reasons for rejecting this doctrine. Why is this significant in the present discussion? Because the conclusion that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is the Holy Spirit is a key element of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture.

The modern Dispensationalist thinking on this subject is as follows:

First:The Holy Spirit said “And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8)

In this scripture the Holy Spirit said “you know what withholdeth.” He did not say “you should know,” or “you ought to know.” He said “you know.” This makes it plain that he was speaking of Himself. No other possible restrainer could be so obvious he did not need to be named. Nor could the one “that letteth” be an impersonal power, for the Holy Spirit clearly calls it “he.” It is not a matter of interpretation, but of the meaning of words. “He” clearly refers to a person, not some kind of an impersonal power. Thus it cannot mean either the Roman Empire, as many ancient commentators assumed. Nor can it mean the church, as some modern teachers hold. For when the Church is spoken of as a person, it is always referred to in the feminine, not the masculine.

We are told that “He who now letteth let until He be taken out of the way.” How can this be, when Jesus said, “I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(John 14:16-17) One scripture tells us “the Spirit of truth” is given “that He may abide with you forever.” The other says that He will be “taken out of the way.” How can one who will “abide with you forever” be “taken out of the way?”

We read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of truth,” is truly given “that He may abide with you forever.” But Jesus, “the Lord Himself,” will also “descend from heaven” and catch us up “to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This event, which is commonly called the rapture, has to be the time when the Holy Spirit is “taken out of the way.” This is because both the Holy Spirit and the saints of God will be removed from this earth, yet they will be together forever. It is therefore plain that they will be removed at the same time. But it is only after that happens that “the lawless one will be revealed.” For we remember that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now letteth will let until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) Many think scripture does not clearly teach a pre-tribulation rapture, but that is not correct. This scripture clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” before the Antichrist, “the lawless one,” will be revealed.
 
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Markea

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Read Romans 11

The olive tree is Israel.

Here's the root of the problem... (no pun intended)

Israel is not the root or the tree, CHRIST is, as John 15 affirms.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

The church isn't grafted into Israel (they have been cut off), the church of God is in Christ Jesus.

Same with Eph... the wealth of Israel is not Israel, it's Christ. We Gentiles share in the commonwealth of Israel, which is Christ.

So again, there's the root of the problem, the tree isn't Israel, it is Christ.
 
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Christos Anesti

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“[St Cyril of Jerusalem] At first indeed he will put on a show of mildness (as though he were a learned and discreet person), and of soberness and benevolence: and by the lying signs and wonders of his magical deceit a having beguiled the Jews, as though he were the expected Christ, he shall afterwards be characterized by all kinds of crimes of inhumanity and lawlessness, so as to outdo all unrighteous and ungodly men who have gone before him displaying against all men, but especially against us Christians, a spirit murderous and most cruel, merciless and crafty”

In both of these articles we notice the use of the words “the Jews.” If they had said “Israel,” it might be possible to imagine that they were speaking metaphorically of the church. But the use of the words “the Jews” eliminates that possibility. And the second quotation further reinforces that conclusion by opposing the words “the Jews” to “us Christians.”So we see clear references to a future “kingdom of the Jews,” and thus to a future revival of the ancient nation of Israel, in ancient church writings.

Yes it does appear to show that the antichrist will deceive the Jews and set up a kingdom with them. It also says that they will persecute Christians. Christians would have to still be there under the reign of anti-christ in order for them to be persecuted. Shouldn't they have been raptured away first? It also makes me question the whole point of Christian Zionism. If it's the kingdom of antichrist why on Gods green earth would you be supporting it?
 
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Christos Anesti

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There is also other evidence of the antiquity of this doctrine of a pre-tribulation, also dating from about the same time. In a book called “Homilies on Second Thessalonians,” John of Crysosyem, who lived in the latter part of the fourth century, wrote concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:7 that:

“One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholdeth, that is, hindereth him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers.”

This is simply speculation on the part of the author. ST Chrysostom points out that some people do not agree that the withholding one is Christian Rome. They think it is the Spirit that restrains and that the gifts of the spirit will be taken away. Thats all we know from that. One can't assume this means their understanding of how the Spirit will be removed is that Christians will be taken up to Christ while still alive before the reign of antichrist. There are probably a multitude of possible scenarios a person could use for why the gifts of the Spirit are no longer active.
 
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Christos Anesti

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For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.”

Of all the quotes you provided this is the only one that could easily be understood in a "pre-trib rapture" manner. Is it actually teaching that? It could be. It could also be teaching that all Christians will be taken to the Lord (ie will die) before the great tribulation so that they do not have to suffer under it.

Why is there nothing more explicit like " before the antichrist comes all the Christians then living will be taken up to Christ bodily and will not come back until after the tribulation is over."?
 
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Christos Anesti

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Further, no argument such as this has any merit because it is well known that in the medieval period the monks systematically purged church libraries of all material that did not meet with the approval of the current leadership of the church.

They didn't do that great of a job then. Some of the early Fathers taught chiliasm which was later explicitly rejected by the Church yet we still have a good number of ancient texts supporting chiliasm. Origen and Evagrius were anathmatized and some of their letters destroyed yet I still have a few of their books on my shelf. Even in some areas were a lot of texts were destroyed (like the gnostic "gospels" and such) we still have a good deal left. Maybe some day we will have a Nag Hammadi of pre trib rapture literature and we will find an ancient prefiguration of the Left Behind series.:sorry:
 
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Christos Anesti

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The New Covenant is with Israel. If the Church isn't spiritual Israel does that mean the NC isn't with us?

"the days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.

Jeremiah 31:31- 31:34
 
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