Dispensationalism

[Hentenza]

you are deceived.

Scriptures do not deceive. False teachers do.

 

[anthony55]

Scriptures do not deceive. False teachers do.

The devil deceives.

 

[anthony55]

So Gen 17:5-8 finds its fulfillment in Abraham's Seed Christ Gal 3:

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Land of Canaan spoken of in gen 17:8 was nothing else but eternal heavenly Glory, and it was for all Abraham's seed through Christ.

Any attempt to circumvent this Truth, is nothing less that wresting scripture to your own destruction.

Spiritual and Heavenly Blessings are literally fulfilled in Christ. When Paul preached that the promises to the Fathers are fulfilled in Christ acts 13:

32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

He meant and understood them in a spiritually and heavenly manner, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, as He ascended to set on the Throne of David acts 13:

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

CP Acts 2:


30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Being resurrected ans ascended to the right hand of God, He now occupies the Throne of David, and will now bestow the sure mercies of David upon the house of David, the Tabernacle of David acts 15:16, the sure mercies being the Holy Ghost, a Spiritual blessing.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yep, you got that right. I've known more than a few dispensationalists in my day and they live Christ-centered lives. There are a lot of them who do the work of evangelizing and missions. I know Swindoll and Vernon McGee are dispensationalists...they are good preachers and speakers...

 

[Codger]

You are quite correct that dispensationalism has been plagued with almost endless speculation. This is very useful to sensationalists, and has been used to the hilt.

Dispensationalism is endless speculation from one end to the other. Like I said this speculation is based on Prophesy that is mostly fulfilled, which has been taken out of the hands and context of the people to whom it was originally written and exported to a time yet in our future. All this speculation based on the news media of our day will never come to pass except by coincidence. Dispensationalism when it was invented in the late 1800's was going nowhere until modern Israel was formed through manipulation, violence, and political intrigue. It is not a fulfillment of Prophesy. All prophesy about the regathering of Israel can be traced to the regathering after the 70 years of captivity in Babylon.

Christians have wrongly misinterpreted these passages and have nagged the Jews to return to Palestine since the time of Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658) nearly 350 years ago. So this predates the Dispensational movment. The Dispensational movement took off after 1948. Dispensationalism is totally dependant on the existance and success of todays Israel and without it - Dispensationalism would fall apart; so it is a sacred cow theology that is based solely on literal and eisegetically interpreted scriptures.

As long as Dispensational speculation remains in the future, how can it be historically proven in error? The problem for Dispensationalists is not their speculation, but rather their date setting. The duds that I recorded were based on doctrinal committments of time and place and were proven in error. You're looking for a lot of speculative nonsense that will never come to pass; and at the same time your unrealistic expectations have you so far out in left field that like the Jews you have no idea what God is doing today.

But you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Just because a doctrine has been misapplied and misused does not mean it is erroneous. The original dispensastionalists (such as John Nelson Darby, William Kelly, and their associates) did not speculate in this way, and neithjer do today's responsible dispensationalists.

It is all speculation and has been made so complicated in order to make all of its tenants fit together and work. It's like putting together a jig saw puzzle by cutting off the corners to make the pieces fit. When you get done the picture printed on the puzzle makes no sense.

According to classicaal dispensational doctrine, there was only one prophetic event that would take place before the pre-tribulation rapture. That was the return of the Jews to their homeland, which happened in the 1940's.

I've got Pentecosts' book and he indicates four comings of Christ although they are not labeled as four comings, but that is what they are. As for this secret coming? Sheepishly called the second part of the second coming by Dispys. That sounds much better than the "Third Coming." There are only two comings of Christ and if you assemble all of the references to the second coming they all fit together just 2 not 4. Peter wrote of the second coming in very streightforward language. He said the world would be destroyed - and that is what will happen - it is the end of time, the Church age, and humanity.

Like i said there are no prophesies that speak to the regathering of the 20th century. God accomplished and finished his work and closed the book on the Old Covenant with the fall of Jerusalem.

According to classical dispensationalism, ALL the rest of Bible prophecy will take place after the rapture, so no classical dispensationalist looks for the fulfillment of any prophecy in the current news.

Classical dispensationalism was modified in the early 20th century by Dwight Pentecost, and most of the speculation about coming events has come from the Pentecost (not Pentecostal) camp.

But as for a future fulfillment of prophecy, there are an host of Old Testament prophecies which have unquestionably not been fulfilled. All the claims that all or even most of them were fulfilled in the past are based on application of general ideas contained in these prophecies without attention being paid to the fine details of their statements.

One example is the prophecy about the path the Assyrian will follow when he invades Judea. This is simply assumed to be the path that Sennacherib followed when he attacked Hezekiah. But there are few details of ancient history more fully documented than Sennacherib's campaign against Hezekiah. We do not just have medieval copies of ancient documents about this caampaign. We have the ancient documents themselves, pressed into clay and baked into pottery. And we do not just have a few such documents. Scholars have found seven of them. And the path described in Isaiah 10:28-32 was most definitely not the path that Sennacherib followed.

There are many such highly detailed and explicitly worded prophecies that most unquestionably have not been fulfilled. Either the prophecies were wrong or they will be fulfilled in the future. And if the prophecies were wrong, then either the books that contained them were not the word of God or else God is a liar. The only one of these choices that is available to a Godly Christian is that these prophecies will be fulfilled in the future.

This is why dispensationalists are so immovable in their beliefs. because they are based on simple belief that the Bible is wholly reliable, and that it means exactly what it says.

Exactly what it says? Right and that is the problem. If a passage of scripture is allegorical then Dispensationalists say it was never fulfilled. Literalism is very much akin to legalism as it is also a manifestation of pride (I know first hand). The bible is full of allegorical or figurative apocalyptic language from cover to cover. Jesus himself spoke in cryptic terms - how can you deny this? He spoke in parables, allegory, hyperbole, simile - hardly streightforward language. In fact when he was talking to the Disciples on one occasion they remarked that he was not talking in riddles but plainly. They asked him about his figurative language and what did he tell them? Right - his words were only for certain persons with a right spirit.

The Disciples had a major paradigm shift at the time of the cross and Pentecost. Up until that time their thinking was very soulish. They fought among themselves for the top seats in Christs literal Kingdom that they believed would eventually come to pass. When he said "Destroy this Temple and I will restore it in three days" they thought it was literal. When he told them he had bread that they knew not of - they thought he had stuffed his pockets at some point. He said that if your hands or your feet cause you to stumble - cut them off. Literal or Hyperbole? I don't see any literalists with hands or feet missing. The Disciples were all literalists and soulish in their thinking - this changed after Pentecost and they started understanding the picture as Jesus intended.

 

[Biblewriter]

Dispensationalism is endless speculation from one end to the other.

This is so totally incorrect that I find it amazing.

Like I said this speculation is based on Prophesy that is mostly fulfilled, which has been taken out of the hands and context of the people to whom it was originally written and exported to a time yet in our future. All this speculation based on the news media of our day will never come to pass except by coincidence.

The dispensationalists you are talking about are not classical dispensationalists.

Dispensationalism when it was invented in the late 1800's was going nowhere until modern Israel was formed through manipulation, violence, and political intrigue. It is not a fulfillment of Prophesy.

Actually, I agree with you. SURPRISED? It is because you simply do not have any concept of what I say in these forums.

The return of the Jews to their homeland had to come to pass, because the end time scenario opens with them in their homeland. But not even one prophecy directly mentions it. The return of Israel that is a major theme of end time prophecy is a return of "ALL ISRAEL, EVEN ALL OF IT." (Ezekiel 36:10) There is absolutely no way to even begin to pretend that this has been fulfilled.

All prophesy about the regathering of Israel can be traced to the regathering after the 70 years of captivity in Babylon.

There was no regathering after the return from Babylon that even approximately resembled the detailed account given in Ezekiel 47:13-48:35.

Christians have wrongly misinterpreted these passages and have nagged the Jews to return to Palestine since the time of Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658) nearly 350 years ago. So this predates the Dispensational movment. The Dispensational movement took off after 1948. Dispensationalism is totally dependant on the existance and success of todays Israel and without it - Dispensationalism would fall apart; so it is a sacred cow theology that is based solely on literal and eisegetically interpreted scriptures.

As long as Dispensational speculation remains in the future, how can it be historically proven in error? The problem for Dispensationalists is not their speculation, but rather their date setting. The duds that I recorded were based on doctrinal committments of time and place and were proven in error. You're looking for a lot of speculative nonsense that will never come to pass; and at the same time your unrealistic expectations have you so far out in left field that like the Jews you have no idea what God is doing today.



It is all speculation and has been made so complicated in order to make all of its tenants fit together and work. It's like putting together a jig saw puzzle by cutting off the corners to make the pieces fit. When you get done the picture printed on the puzzle makes no sense.



I've got Pentecosts' book and he indicates four comings of Christ although they are not labeled as four comings, but that is what they are. As for this secret coming? Sheepishly called the second part of the second coming by Dispys. That sounds much better than the "Third Coming." There are only two comings of Christ and if you assemble all of the references to the second coming they all fit together just 2 not 4. Peter wrote of the second coming in very streightforward language. He said the world would be destroyed - and that is what will happen - it is the end of time, the Church age, and humanity.

Pentecost was not a classical dispensationalist. he was, in fact, the first of those who generally subscribed to the concepts of dispensationalism, but veered far off its original course.

Like i said there are no prophesies that speak to the regathering of the 20th century.

And as I said, none that speak of it directly, but many that showed that it had to take place.

God accomplished and finished his work and closed the book on the Old Covenant with the fall of Jerusalem.



Exactly what it says? Right and that is the problem.

If you have a problem with that concept, then the problem is yours and not ours.

If a passage of scripture is allegorical then Dispensationalists say it was never fulfilled. Literalism is very much akin to legalism as it is also a manifestation of pride (I know first hand). The bible is full of allegorical or figurative apocalyptic language from cover to cover. Jesus himself spoke in cryptic terms - how can you deny this? He spoke in parables, allegory, hyperbole, simile - hardly streightforward language. In fact when he was talking to the Disciples on one occasion they remarked that he was not talking in riddles but plainly. They asked him about his figurative language and what did he tell them? Right - his words were only for certain persons with a right spirit.

The Disciples had a major paradigm shift at the time of the cross and Pentecost. Up until that time their thinking was very soulish. They fought among themselves for the top seats in Christs literal Kingdom that they believed would eventually come to pass. When he said "Destroy this Temple and I will restore it in three days" they thought it was literal. When he told them he had bread that they knew not of - they thought he had stuffed his pockets at some point. He said that if your hands or your feet cause you to stumble - cut them off. Literal or Hyperbole? I don't see any literalists with hands or feet missing. The Disciples were all literalists and soulish in their thinking - this changed after Pentecost and they started understanding the picture as Jesus intended.

I do not know of even one dispensationalist, classical or modern, who denies that there are allegories in the Bible. But when we find an explicit statement that says that such-and-such a thing will happen, it is simple disbelief to claim that it is only allegorical.

 

[Codger]

This is so totally incorrect that I find it amazing.

You still haven't named one speculation of Dispensationalism that has come to pass. All of the tenants are kept in the future so they cannot be proven to be false. The ones that have been dated have all been shown to be false.

The dispensationalists you are talking about are not classical dispensationalists.

I was a Dispensationalist for at least the first 30 years of my life. I changed because this system of belief is illogical and absurd. So don't tell me that I don't understand what you are saying. I have heard the term Classical Premillennialist, but never Classical Dispensationalist. Maybe you could enlighten me as to what the difference is.

Actually, I agree with you. SURPRISED? It is because you simply do not have any concept of what I say in these forums.

I am surprised. Doesen't it bother you that this doctrine went over the heads of all the Disciples and Apostles and was just realized in the 19th century?

The return of the Jews to their homeland had to come to pass, because the end time scenario opens with them in their homeland. But not even one prophecy directly mentions it. The return of Israel that is a major theme of end time prophecy is a return of "ALL ISRAEL, EVEN ALL OF IT." (Ezekiel 36:10) There is absolutely no way to even begin to pretend that this has been fulfilled. [quote/]

Ezekiel was writing before the exile of Israel to Babylon. He was referring to their eventual return back to the land. 38-39 is the story of the Maccabees written in apocalyptic language.

There was no regathering after the return from Babylon that even approximately resembled the detailed account given in Ezekiel 47:13-48:35.

There was a regathering from Babylon and that is what all the scriptures are directed toward. There is not one verse that you can point out that is specific to Israel 1948.

Pentecost was not a classical dispensationalist. he was, in fact, the first of those who generally subscribed to the concepts of dispensationalism, but veered far off its original course.

Explain please.

And as I said, none that speak of it directly, but many that showed that it had to take place.

Oh - you are admitting that this viewpoint has no scriptural authority?

If you have a problem with that concept, then the problem is yours and not ours.

I don't have a problem as I think it is all very clear.

I do not know of even one dispensationalist, classical or modern, who denies that there are allegories in the Bible. But when we find an explicit statement that says that such-and-such a thing will happen, it is simple disbelief to claim that it is only allegorical.

How about an example?
That's true as each group determines what is allegorical and what is not. So there is different degrees among all groups. The Dispensational error comes when they say " If it makes sense at all - we will accept it as literal." Can't do that as some books are almost entirely written in signs symbols and tokens: like Revelation for example.

Well, the bottom line to all of this is...

As an Amillennialist what do I miss if my theology is wrong? Nothing - all I have to do is apologize to the world that I was wrong and move on. The secret coming will take me into Paradise.

What does the Dispensationalist miss if they are wrong? In my view - When the second coming takes place - that is the end of the world, time, and humanity. If the secret coming takes place instead of the second coming that I expect - what is missed. First, all the people who thought they were going to have a second chance in the great tribulation, like the Dispy's teach, will be lost. The 1,000 year reign of Christ will not take place and there will be many who will realize that they have wasted their lives waiting for something that will never appear. There are consequences to our belief systems. Dispy's are going to be shocked when they find themselves in a time of tribulation and martyrdom - they expect to escape all of this.

 

[Hentenza]

You still haven't named one speculation of Dispensationalism that has come to pass. All of the tenants are kept in the future so they cannot be proven to be false. The ones that have been dated have all been shown to be false.

All realized prophesy has been fulfilled literally, therefore, there is no theological reason to believe that all unrealized prophesy won't be fulfilled literally as well. When one interprets future prophesy allegorically in view of the literal fulfilled prophesy the hermeneutics get quite inconsistent.

 

[Codger]

All realized prophesy has been fulfilled literally, therefore, there is no theological reason to believe that all unrealized prophesy won't be fulfilled literally as well. When one interprets future prophesy allegorically in view of the literal fulfilled prophesy the hermeneutics get quite inconsistent.

Sorry - I'm a bit slow - could you provide a couple of examples please?

 

[Hupomone10]

Sorry - I'm a bit slow - could you provide a couple of examples please?

Oh, this should be good...

I hope you're kidding.

 

[Biblewriter]

You still haven't named one speculation of Dispensationalism that has come to pass. All of the tenants are kept in the future so they cannot be proven to be false. The ones that have been dated have all been shown to be false.

Scripture explicitly says that no one knows the day or the hour, so of course all date predictions must of necessity have been false. Anyone who ever made such a prediction showed by the very fact that he made it, that he (or she) was not being subject to the authority of scripture. Unfortunately many who subscribe to dispensationalist doctrine in general have made such speculations. But that does not invalidate the doctrine as such. I could demonstrate many ridiculous statements made by those that subscribe to your ideas, but that would not disprove your position.

I was a Dispensationalist for at least the first 30 years of my life. I changed because this system of belief is illogical and absurd. So don't tell me that I don't understand what you are saying. I have heard the term Classical Premillennialist, but never Classical Dispensationalist. Maybe you could enlighten me as to what the difference is.

The term Classical Dispensationalist is my own term, so it does not surprise me that you never heard it before. But by it I mean one of those who were in the group of dispensational teachers that predated Dwight Pentecost.

You do not understand what I am saying because the dispensationalism you are familiar with is the dspensationalism invented by Dwight Pentecost. I am firmly convinced that Dwight Pentecost, though he was a godly man, so warped and twisted the prophetic scheme that it became impossible to ever untangle the mess he made. He completely missed the central human figure of end time prophecy.

I am surprised. Doesen't it bother you that this doctrine went over the heads of all the Disciples and Apostles and was just realized in the 19th century?

It does not bother me at all, because the Disciples did not understand anything Jesus told them until after the Holy Spirit was given, and nothing the Apostles wrote denies any portion of dispensationalism.

But your claim that this was just realized in the 19th century lacks historic backing. In the fourth century, Eusebius complained about the "many" early writers who had believed that “after the resurrection of the dead there will be a thousand-year period when the kingdom of Christ will be established on this earth in material form.” The medieval monks purged church libraries of almost everything these "many" writers had written, so we do not know what they wrote. We have only a few fragments by Papias and several articles by Irenaeus, whose writings were preserved, not because of his prophetic stance, but because he supported the ascendancy of the bishop of Rome.

In addition to this we have an unquestionable statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture that was unquestionably written before the year 600 and may have been written as much as two hundred years earlier. This article was unquestionably widely circulated, because it was translated into at least three different languages in ancient times. Scholars call the writer of this article pseudo-Ephraim. They call him that because he says his name is Ephraim, and they feel he was not the famous Ephraim of Syria. But I object to calling him pseudo-Ephraim because this implies falsehood, and neglects that the writer could have been another person who was also named Ephraim. The simple fact that he said he was Ephraim does not prove that he was claiming the be the famous Ephraim of Syria. He did not say he was Ephraim of Syria, but just that he was Ephraim.

Again, sometime around the year 450 or so (I am writing from memory and do not remember the exact date) John of Cyrstosem wrote that some believed that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 was "the Spirit of grace." This is of note because he did not believe this, he was just noting that some said it. As this is one of the central elements of pre-trib rapture doctrine, it strongly suggests that this doctrine was being taught before the year 450.

So your claim that this doctrine "was just realized in the 19th century" has no basis in fact.

The return of the Jews to their homeland had to come to pass, because the end time scenario opens with them in their homeland. But not even one prophecy directly mentions it. The return of Israel that is a major theme of end time prophecy is a return of "ALL ISRAEL, EVEN ALL OF IT." (Ezekiel 36:10) There is absolutely no way to even begin to pretend that this has been fulfilled.

Ezekiel was writing before the exile of Israel to Babylon. He was referring to their eventual return back to the land. 38-39 is the story of the Maccabees written in apocalyptic language.



There was a regathering from Babylon and that is what all the scriptures are directed toward. There is not one verse that you can point out that is specific to Israel 1948.

Yes, there was a regathering from Babylon. But this regathering involved just a small remnant of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The prophecy I quoted very explicitly says that "all Israel, even all of it" will be regathered. This most unquestionably has not happened.

As this post is getting long, I will try to address the rest of what you said in another post.

 

[notreligus]

Scripture explicitly says that no one knows the day or the hour, so of course all date predictions must of necessity have been false. Anyone who ever made such a prediction showed by the very fact that he made it, that he (or she) was not being subject to the authority of scripture. Unfortunately many who subscribe to dispensationalist doctrine in general have made such speculations. But that does not invalidate the doctrine as such. I could demonstrate many ridiculous statements made by those that subscribe to your ideas, but that would not disprove your position.

The term Classical Dispensationalist is my own term, so it does not surprise me that you never heard it before. But by it I mean one of those who were in the group of dispensational teachers that predated Dwight Pentecost.

You do not understand what I am saying because the dispensationalism you are familiar with is the dspensationalism invented by Dwight Pentecost. I am firmly convinced that Dwight Pentecost, though he was a godly man, so warped and twisted the prophetic scheme that it became impossible to ever untangle the mess he made. He completely missed the central human figure of end time prophecy.

It does not bother me at all, because the Disciples did not understand anything Jesus told them until after the Holy Spirit was given, and nothing the Apostles wrote denies any portion of dispensationalism.

But your claim that this was just realized in the 19th century lacks historic backing. In the fourth century, Eusebius complained about the "many" early writers who had believed that “after the resurrection of the dead there will be a thousand-year period when the kingdom of Christ will be established on this earth in material form.” The medieval monks purged church libraries of almost everything these "many" writers had written, so we do not know what they wrote. We have only a few fragments by Papias and several articles by Irenaeus, whose writings were preserved, not because of his prophetic stance, but because he supported the ascendancy of the bishop of Rome.

In addition to this we have an unquestionable statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture that was unquestionably written before the year 600 and may have been written as much as two hundred years earlier. This article was unquestionably widely circulated, because it was translated into at least three different languages in ancient times. Scholars call the writer of this article pseudo-Ephraim. They call him that because he says his name is Ephraim, and they feel he was not the famous Ephraim of Syria. But I object to calling him pseudo-Ephraim because this implies falsehood, and neglects that the writer could have been another person who was also named Ephraim. The simple fact that he said he was Ephraim does not prove that he was claiming the be the famous Ephraim of Syria. He did not say he was Ephraim of Syria, but just that he was Ephraim.

Again, sometime around the year 450 or so (I am writing from memory and do not remember the exact date) John of Cyrstosem wrote that some believed that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 was "the Spirit of grace." This is of note because he did not believe this, he was just noting that some said it. As this is one of the central elements of pre-trib rapture doctrine, it strongly suggests that this doctrine was being taught before the year 450.

So your claim that this doctrine "was just realized in the 19th century" has no basis in fact.

Yes, there was a regathering from Babylon. But this regathering involved just a small remnant of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The prophecy I quoted very explicitly says that "all Israel, even all of it" will be regathered. This most unquestionably has not happened.

As this post is getting long, I will try to address the rest of what you said in another post.

Paul has told us that "all Israel" is not all from Israel or Judah/Benjamin. One is not of true Israel just because of genetics.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

 

[Biblewriter]

Paul has told us that "all Israel" is not all from Israel or Judah/Benjamin. One is not of true Israel just because of genetics.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

This is not saying that "all Israel" is not those from Israel. It is saying that not every natural descendant of Israel is a true Israelite, even as Jesus said of Nathaniel, "behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile." (John 1:47)

But what does this have to do with this discussion?

 

[notreligus]

This is not saying that "all Israel" is not those from Israel. It is saying that not every natural descendant of Israel is a true Israelite, even as Jesus said of Nathaniel, "behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile." (John 1:47)

But what does this have to do with this discussion?

???

I believe I said the same thing. You corrected me and then said the same thing. That's what I read in a previous post - a contradiction.

If you're not a moderator ordering me to not post here, then I should be able to post in this thread.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

???

I believe I said the same thing. You corrected me and then said the same thing. That's what I read in a previous post - a contradiction.

If you're not a moderator ordering me to not post here, then I should be able to post in this thread.

 

[Biblewriter]

This is not saying that "all Israel" is not those from Israel. It is saying that not every natural descendant of Israel is a true Israelite, even as Jesus said of Nathaniel, "behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile." (John 1:47)

But what does this have to do with this discussion?

Then I owe you an apology because I misunderstood what you were saying.

And I did not for a moment mean to challenge your right to post here.

 

[Codger]

Scripture explicitly says that no one knows the day or the hour, so of course all date predictions must of necessity have been false. Anyone who ever made such a prediction showed by the very fact that he made it, that he (or she) was not being subject to the authority of scripture. Unfortunately many who subscribe to dispensationalist doctrine in general have made such speculations. But that does not invalidate the doctrine as such. I could demonstrate many ridiculous statements made by those that subscribe to your ideas, but that would not disprove your position.

Go ahead lets get specific - demonstrate away. What ridiculous statements?

The term Classical Dispensationalist is my own term, so it does not surprise me that you never heard it before. But by it I mean one of those who were in the group of dispensational teachers that predated Dwight Pentecost.

To my surprise - classical Dispensationalism does exist... Wikipedia...

"Early dispensational writers such as Darby and Chafer are referred to as classical dispensationalists. This view differs from today's traditional or "revised" dispensationalists. The early Scofield Bible (but not the Revised Scofield Bible) reflects a classical dispensational view. Classical dispensationalists are a small minority today, and Miles Stanford is one writer who represents this point of view."

Doctrinal position chart by Miles Stanford...

So we both learned something today.

You do not understand what I am saying because the dispensationalism you are familiar with is the dspensationalism invented by Dwight Pentecost. I am firmly convinced that Dwight Pentecost, though he was a godly man, so warped and twisted the prophetic scheme that it became impossible to ever untangle the mess he made. He completely missed the central human figure of end time prophecy.

If we had to have perfect doctrine as a condition of salvation - who would be saved? Noooobody. My viewpoints change constantly - a good indication that I am not there yet. I wonder if anyone lives long enough to really learn the total message of the Bible. The longer you are at Bible study the more unanswered questions you accumulate. People are almost always sincere - but often sincerely wrong.

It does not bother me at all, because the Disciples did not understand anything Jesus told them until after the Holy Spirit was given, and nothing the Apostles wrote denies any portion of dispensationalism.

Well, it does you just can't see it - yet.

"But your claim that this was just realized in the 19th century lacks historic backing. In the fourth century, Eusebius complained about the "many" early writers who had believed that “after the resurrection of the dead there will be a thousand-year period when the kingdom of Christ will be established on this earth in material form.” The medieval monks purged church libraries of almost everything these "many" writers had written, so we do not know what they wrote. We have only a few fragments by Papias and several articles by Irenaeus, whose writings were preserved, not because of his prophetic stance, but because he supported the ascendancy of the bishop of Rome.

I notice that you did not include the words of Eusebius in regard to the character Papius. By the way Papius is noted as the father of Historic Premillennialism and not Dispensationalism. The two were combined in the late 19th century to yield the term Dispensational Premillennialism. Both of which I reject. There is no 1,000 reign of Christ in the flesh nor is there a secret coming - 2 not 4 remember.

Eusebius...

And the same man [Papius] sets out other things also as having come to him from unwritten tradition, certain strange parables of the savior and teachings of his, and certain other more mythical things. Among which also he says that there will be a certain millennium of years after the resurrection of the dead, the kingdom of Christ being established bodily upon this very earth. Which things, I suppose, he got by having welcomed the apostolic accounts, not having seen that the things spoken through them were spoken mystically, in patterns [symbols]. For indeed, that his mental capacity was very small, as is proven from his words, is apparent. But he also was responsible for so very many of the churchmen after him being of his same opinion, putting forward the antiquity of the man, like Irenaeus then, and any other if he has proclaimed that he thinks the same things.

In addition to this we have an unquestionable statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture that was unquestionably written before the year 600 and may have been written as much as two hundred years earlier. This article was unquestionably widely circulated, because it was translated into at least three different languages in ancient times. Scholars call the writer of this article pseudo-Ephraim. They call him that because he says his name is Ephraim, and they feel he was not the famous Ephraim of Syria. But I object to calling him pseudo-Ephraim because this implies falsehood, and neglects that the writer could have been another person who was also named Ephraim. The simple fact that he said he was Ephraim does not prove that he was claiming the be the famous Ephraim of Syria. He did not say he was Ephraim of Syria, but just that he was Ephraim.

You're basing your doctrine on a double unquestionable extra biblical text that is unknown to most of us. How about a Biblical text within the canon of Scripture? What is the quotation that you are referring to?

Again, sometime around the year 450 or so (I am writing from memory and do not remember the exact date) John of Cyrstosem wrote that some believed that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 was "the Spirit of grace." This is of note because he did not believe this, he was just noting that some said it. As this is one of the central elements of pre-trib rapture doctrine, it strongly suggests that this doctrine was being taught before the year 450.

John Chrysostom was right - when the Shekinah glory left the Temple in about 66 AD, it was only a short time later when the wrath and violence at Jerusalem was unleashed. God was holding it back until the right time. The Spirit of God went to the Mount of Olives and stayed there hovering over the place where Jesus was crucified - it stayed there for 3 1/2 years - just like it did when the first Temple of Solomon was destroyed.

So your claim that this doctrine "was just realized in the 19th century" has no basis in fact.

Not true.

Yes, there was a regathering from Babylon. But this regathering involved just a small remnant of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The prophecy I quoted very explicitly says that "all Israel, even all of it" will be regathered. This most unquestionably has not happened.

What is the reference please.

As this post is getting long, I will try to address the rest of what you said in another post.

 

[Biblewriter]

You said:

Ezekiel was writing before the exile of Israel to Babylon. He was referring to their eventual return back to the land. 38-39 is the story of the Maccabees written in apocalyptic language.

I already answered part of this, but the only way you can make Ezekiel 38 and 39 seem to refer to the story of the Maccabees is to ignore the explicit details of what it says, and to at the same time pretend that explicit statements were never intended to be accepted at face value.

First, the prophecy is addressed to “Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.” (Ezekiel 38:1) It is a very well known fact of history that Magog was another name for the Scythians. (Check any history book for this.) The Scythians were a well known tribe that inhabited the steppe region of what is now called the Ukraine. Gog is specifically stated to be “of the land of Magog.” this conclusively identifies Gog as a prince over the area now called the Ukraine, that is, Russia. He is further identified as “the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.” Some translations render Rosh as the word chief, rather than as the name Rosh. This is a possible translation because ancient hebrew did not contain any differentiation between capitol and small letters, and rosh is not only an ancient name, it is also the Hebrew word chief. But the ancient Hebrews unquestionably considered this a name, rather than a word, because in the Septuigent they rendered it as Ros, rather than as protos, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word rosh.

But Gog is also the prince of Meshech and Tubal. These two closely related tribes are often mentioned in ancient history, and are almost always mentioned together. They lived in Asia minor, far from any interaction with the Maccabees, until the Turks drove them out around the year 1050, when they fled north to present day Russia.

Nor is this application of this scripture something that arose with the dispensationalist movement in the 1900's. This scripture was cited by the Bishop Proculus as applying to the peoples north of the Black Sea (today’s Ukraine). As this Bishop died in 447, he clearly said this in the early part of the fifth century.

But the problem with your assertion is not only with the identity of Gog. It is also with the identities of his allies. According to Ezekiel 38:5-6 these allies include “Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya... Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops. Persia retained its ancient name into the twentieth century, when it began to be called Iran. Ethiopia and Lybia still retain their ancient names, but in ancient times Ethiopia referred to all of black Africa and Lybia referred to all of white Africa. Gomer is described in ancient documents that clearly identify it as the nation that the Greeks called the Cimmerians. This ancient people is also well known to the historians as the ancestors of the Gauls, who later became known as the Celts or Kelts. And Togarmah is unquestionably Armenia. All this is indisputable historical fact. These nations were far from ancient Israel. Most of them had no dealings whatsoever with the Maccabees, and they most unquestionably did not join together to attack the Maccabees.

I said:

Pentecost was not a classical dispensationalist. he was, in fact, the first of those who generally subscribed to the concepts of dispensationalism, but veered far off its original course.

You answered:

Explain please.

The dispensationalists of the nineteenth century (the ones I call the classical dospensationalists) understood end time prophecy to include a revival of the ancient Roman Empire under a character the scriptures call the Beast. They also saw a revival of ancient Judea under a false Messiah they called both the Antichrist and the false prophet. They saw a union between these two wicked individuals that held to the end. They also saw an attack on Israel by an individual the scriptures call the Assyrian, who would kill two-thirds of all the inhabitants of the land an d remain there until the real Messiah came. When messiah came, He would destroy the Assyrian and then the nations of the world would unite under the Beast and come to Armageddon. After Messiah destroyed them there, He would send the survivors from that battle to tell all the world what they had seen and to call all Israel to come home. When they returned, Messiah would purge all the rebels from among them and all the rest would be converted. He would then settle them in the land and then the nations of the world would attack a second time, this time led by Gog. When Gog was destroyed, the Millennium would ensue and world peace would reigh for a thousand years. After that period of peace, Satan would be released from his prison and again incite rebellion, to again be led by Gog. When He was destroyed the entire earth would be remade and the righteous settled in the new earth forever.

Since you say you are familiar with dispensational doctrine, I assume you will recognose this scenario as radically different from that proposed by Dwight pentecost, and now almost universally held bu pre-tribbers.


I said, concerning the twentieth century return of the Jews to their land:

And as I said, none that speak of it directly, but many that showed that it had to take place.

You answered:

Oh - you are admitting that this viewpoint has no scriptural authority?

If you are speaking of this return as a directly prophesied event, yes, I agree with you absolutely. The prophesied return is a return of all Israel. But Isaiah 66 makes it clear that this will not occur until after the battle of Armageddon.

But if you are speaking of this as a clear event of prophecy, no, I do not agree with you at all. The end time scenario developed in the Scriptures clearly opens with Judah in her land. As she was exiled for nearly two thousand years, she could not be in the land unless she returned. So her return was a prophetic event, even though not even one prophecy directly speaks of it.


You said that my problem was in taking scripture literally.

I answered:

If you have a problem with that concept, then the problem is yours and not ours.

you answered:

I don't have a problem as I think it is all very clear.

If you think that simply believing that the scriptures mean what they say is a “problem,” then you have a very serious problem, whether you realize it or not. Our position is based on simply believing what the Bible says. Not believing the Bible is disbelief. You are forgetting the one most critical rule of scriptural interpretation:

If a proposed interpretation of the meaning of any passage of scripture contradicts the explicit statement of any other passage of scripture, then the proposed interpretation is incorrect.

This is why I said:

I do not know of even one dispensationalist, classical or modern, who denies that there are allegories in the Bible. But when we find an explicit statement that says that such-and-such a thing will happen, it is simple disbelief to claim that it is only allegorical.

You then asked:

How about an example?

As this post is again getting long, I will have to leave this challenge for another post. But suffice it to say that there are literally hundreds of such explicit statements of coming events that have most unquestionably not been fulfilled.

That's true as each group determines what is allegorical and what is not. So there is different degrees among all groups. The Dispensational error comes when they say " If it makes sense at all - we will accept it as literal." Can't do that as some books are almost entirely written in signs symbols and tokens: like Revelation for example.

You said:

Well, the bottom line to all of this is...
apologize to the world that I was wrong and move on. The secret coming will take me into Paradise.

All of us will in the end find that we have been wrong about many things.

You said:

What does the Dispensationalist miss if they are wrong? In my view - When the second coming takes place - that is the end of the world, time, and humanity. If the secret coming takes place instead of the second coming that I expect - what is missed. First, all the people who thought they were going to have a second chance in the great tribulation, like the Dispy's teach, will be lost.

I recognize and sorrow that many dispensationalists very wrongly teach this. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 makes it very plain that there will be no second chance for anyone who has rejected the gospel in this age.

You said:

The 1,000 year reign of Christ will not take place and there will be many who will realize that they have wasted their lives waiting for something that will never appear.

When you say this, you are denying expressly stated scripture. Revelation 20 states six times over that this period will last a thousand years, but that is far from the only place where we find this future kingdom.

There are consequences to our belief systems. Dispy's are going to be shocked when they find themselves in a time of tribulation and martyrdom - they expect to escape all of this.

I agree that there are consequences to our belief systems. Matthew 24:48-51 and Luke 12:45-50 both make it very clear that the Lord will deal severely with those that say, “my Lord delayeth his coming,” and who turn to sin. But dispensationalists do not necessarily expect to escape a time of tribulation and martyrdom. We expect to escape the time called the great tribulation, but we realize that the safety that we presently enjoy in the Western World is unique in both time and space. Most of the church has experienced both tribulation and martyrdom, and we have no scriptural right to be certain that it will never happen here.

But the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, when correctly understood, makes us most earnest in our presentation of the gospel, rather that complacent. When we realize that no present day rejecter of Christ will have another chance, we realize an urgency in our preaching of the gospel.

The dispensationalist preachers of the nineteenth century were among the most active evangelists the world have ever known. And almost all of those that believe this doctrine today are likewise active evangelists.

 

[Biblewriter]

Go ahead lets get specific - demonstrate away. What ridiculous statements?

Since I already said that I would not consider them significant, I think it would be a waste of time to go into any of them.

To my surprise - classical Dispensationalism does exist... Wikipedia...

"Early dispensational writers such as Darby and Chafer are referred to as classical dispensationalists. This view differs from today's traditional or "revised" dispensationalists. The early Scofield Bible (but not the Revised Scofield Bible) reflects a classical dispensational view. Classical dispensationalists are a small minority today, and Miles Stanford is one writer who represents this point of view."

Doctrinal position chart by Miles Stanford...

So we both learned something today.



If we had to have perfect doctrine as a condition of salvation - who would be saved? Noooobody. My viewpoints change constantly - a good indication that I am not there yet. I wonder if anyone lives long enough to really learn the total message of the Bible. The longer you are at Bible study the more unanswered questions you accumulate. People are almost always sincere - but often sincerely wrong.

I also have had to give up many of my most cherished past ideas. I think we could find it both pleasurable and helpful to both of us to discuss things, as long as we can do it in this spirit. Even if neither of us ever convinces the other of anything, we can both benefit by such an exchange.

I notice that you did not include the words of Eusebius in regard to the character Papius. By the way Papius is noted as the father of Historic Premillennialism and not Dispensationalism. The two were combined in the late 19th century to yield the term Dispensational Premillennialism. Both of which I reject. There is no 1,000 reign of Christ in the flesh nor is there a secret coming - 2 not 4 remember.

Eusebius...

And the same man [Papius] sets out other things also as having come to him from unwritten tradition, certain strange parables of the savior and teachings of his, and certain other more mythical things. Among which also he says that there will be a certain millennium of years after the resurrection of the dead, the kingdom of Christ being established bodily upon this very earth. Which things, I suppose, he got by having welcomed the apostolic accounts, not having seen that the things spoken through them were spoken mystically, in patterns [symbols]. For indeed, that his mental capacity was very small, as is proven from his words, is apparent. But he also was responsible for so very many of the churchmen after him being of his same opinion, putting forward the antiquity of the man, like Irenaeus then, and any other if he has proclaimed that he thinks the same things.

I did not for a monent imply that Eusebius agreed with Papias. In fact, I pointed out that Eusebius thought his ideas were fallacious. But the quote you have made agrees with what I said, even to the point of his complaining about how "many" followed the views of Papias. As for his claiming that Papias was of very small mental capacity, that has always been a standard accusation against those that have simple faith in the word of God. He said that this was "proven by his words. I have read all of his words that have been preserved, and find zero basis for this accusation. His supposed "small mental capacity" was simply his simple acceptance of what God said. It should also be pointed out that Papias was reputed to have been a personal disciple of the Apostle John himself. If this was indeed true, then his ideas came from the very Apostle to whom the Revelation was given.

You're basing your doctrine on a double unquestionable extra biblical text that is unknown to most of us.

No, my doctrine is based solely on scripture. I pointed out the historical facts just to prove that the basic ideas of futurism and of the pre-tribulation rapture are not new at all.

How about a Biblical text within the canon of Scripture? What is the quotation that you are referring to?

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

Those who had "kept the word of my patience" were promised that they would be kept from, "out of" "ek" "the hour of temptation." They were not promised that they would be kept through that time, but out of it. If it only said out of the temptation, we might well imagine that the actual meaning was preservation during the temptation. But they were promised that they would be kept out of the hour of temptation. That is, out of that time.

John Chrysostom was right - when the Shekinah glory left the Temple in about 66 AD, it was only a short time later when the wrath and violence at Jerusalem was unleashed. God was holding it back until the right time. The Spirit of God went to the Mount of Olives and stayed there hovering over the place where Jesus was crucified - it stayed there for 3 1/2 years - just like it did when the first Temple of Solomon was destroyed.

Actually, John of Crystosym thought the restrainer was the Roman Empire. But after incorrectly claiming that I am basing my doctrine on non-canonical documents and asking that I keep to the canon of scripture, you are openly basing your own doctrine on supposed historical accounts that smack of superstition and have zero basis in scripture.

Not true.



What is the reference please.

I am not certain what these comments refer to.

 

[Biblewriter]

As Codger requested, here are as many as will fit into one post.

“When the Assyrian comes into our land, And when he treads in our palaces, Then we will raise against him Seven shepherds and eight princely men. They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria, And the land of Nimrod at its entrances; Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian, When he comes into our land And when he treads within our borders.” (Micah 5:5-6) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for Israel has never invaded Assyria.

The path this Assyrian will follow is described in detail in the following words: “He has come to Aiath, He has passed Migron; At Michmash he has attended to his equipment. They have gone along the ridge, They have taken up lodging at Geba. Ramah is afraid, Gibeah of Saul has fled. Lift up your voice, O daughter of Gallim! Cause it to be heard as far as Laish; O poor Anathoth! Madmenah has fled, The inhabitants of Gebim seek refuge. As yet he will remain at Nob that day; He will shake his fist at the mount of the daughter of Zion, The hill of Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 10:28-32) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled for no ancient Assyrian approached Jerusalem along this path.

“Do not keep silent, O God! Do not hold Your peace, And do not be still, O God! For behold, Your enemies make a tumult; And those who hate You have lifted up their head. They have taken crafty counsel against Your people, And consulted together against Your sheltered ones. They have said, ‘Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, That the name of Israel may be remembered no more.’ For they have consulted together with one consent; They form a confederacy against You: The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites; Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assyria also has joined with them; They have helped the children of Lot. Selah” (Psalm 83:1-8) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for Assyria never joined with these nations to attack Israel.

“For it is a day of trouble and treading down and perplexity By the Lord God of hosts In the Valley of Vision– Breaking down the walls And of crying to the mountain. Elam bore the quiver With chariots of men and horsemen, And Kir uncovered the shield. It shall come to pass that your choicest valleys Shall be full of chariots, And the horsemen shall set themselves in array at the gate.” (Isaiah 22:5-7) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for Elam has never attacked Israel.

“Now also many nations have gathered against you, Who say, ‘Let her be defiled, And let our eye look upon Zion. But they do not know the thoughts of the LORD, Nor do they understand His counsel; For He will gather them like sheaves to the threshing floor.’” (Micah 4:11-12) “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.” (Zechariah 12:2-3) “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.” (Zechariah 14:1-4) These have unquestionably not been fulfilled, for thate has never been a time when a great coalation of nations came againsrt Israel, and the Lord went forth to fight against them.

“For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness. For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.” (Isaiah 34:5-10) “Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Edom, And His purposes that He has proposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out; Surely He shall make their dwelling places desolate with them. The earth shakes at the noise of their fall; At the cry its noise is heard at the Red Sea. Behold, He shall come up and fly like the eagle, And spread His wings over Bozrah; The heart of the mighty men of Edom in that day shall be Like the heart of a woman in birth pangs.” (Jeremiah 49:20-22) “Who is this who comes from Edom, With dyed garments from Bozrah, This One who is glorious in His apparel, Traveling in the greatness of His strength?; ‘I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.’ Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? ‘I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes. For the day of vengeance is in My heart, And the year of My redeemed has come. I looked, but there was no one to help, And I wondered That there was no one to uphold; Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me; And My own fury, it sustained Me. I have trodden down the peoples in My anger, Made them drunk in My fury, And brought down their strength to the earth.’” (Isaiah 63:1-6) These have unquestionably not been fulfilled, for God has never judged Edom in the manner described in these prophecies.

“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” (Revelation 17:12-14) “And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.” (Revelation 19:19-21) These have unquestionably not been fulfilled, for such things have never happened.

“‘I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,’ says the LORD, ‘as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.’” (Isaiah 66:18-20) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled. For there has never been a time when the Lord has destroyed a great army and charged the survivors to go and tell His glory and bring all Israel home.

“Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations.” Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame. But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the Lord. Yes, I will cause men to walk on you, My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children.” ( Ezekiel 36:6-12) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for “all the house of Israel, all of it,” has never returned to the land.

“‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,’ says the Lord GOD. ‘I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.’” (Ezekiel 20:33-38) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for there has never been a time when Israel was brought back to their land, and the Lord met them at the border and purged out the rebels from among them, causing the rebels among them to come out of the lands where they were dwelling, but not allowing them to enter the land.

“In that day you shall not be shamed for any of your deeds In which you transgress against Me; For then I will take away from your midst Those who rejoice in your pride, And you shall no longer be haughty In My holy mountain. I will leave in your midst A meek and humble people, And they shall trust in the name of the LORD.” (Zephaniah 3:11-12) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for there has never been a time when Israel was not haughty.

“it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy; everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning.” (Isaiah 4:3-4) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for there was never a time when all the inhabitanta of Zion, and all that dwelt in Jerusalem, were holy.

“As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.” And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’—say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.” (Ezekiel 37:16-22) “He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.” (Isaiah 11:12-13) These have unquestionably not been fulfilled, for since they were first divided, Ephraim and Judah were never re-united, and the jealousy between them has never been healed.

“Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not harass Ephraim. But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west; Together they shall plunder the people of the East; They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab; And the people of Ammon shall obey them.” (Isaiah 11:13-14) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for since Isaiah’s day Ephraim and Judah have never joined together in a military enterprise.

“I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel, that they may do in Edom according to My anger and according to My fury; and they shall know My vengeance.” (Ezekiel 25:14) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for since Ezekiel’s day Israel has never made war with Edom.

“And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them. In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria; a blessing in the midst of the land.” (Isaiah 19:22-24) This has unquestionably not been fulfilled, for neither Egypt nor Assyria have ever turned to the Lord.