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Dispensationalism

createdtoworship

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Preterists don't acknowledge that the Romans killed 450,000 Israelites 65 years after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

you said that all dispensationalists view revelation chapters 4 and on as future. This is due to the outline of revelation 1:19 after these things have passed. Namely the dispensation of the church age. Chapters 2 and 3.
 
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Codger

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The Apostle John said that the book of Revelation was written to the seven Churches which are in Asia...

Rev. 1:4 (KJV)
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Futurists say that is not so, It was rather written to us in our day about 1,918 years later. Actually by their thinking it is yet in our future still. And so the book was wrestled out of their hands and exported to yet our future. God pretended to write it to them, but he really meant it for 21st Century Christians - since it never happened literally under Rome.

Christians who died under the hoofs of Rome are the forgotten people of history (2,100,000) who suffered torture and martyrdom. Obviously they must not have been very good Christians - as God did not see fit to deliver them from the horror of the Roman Empire. We on the other hand are of a much higher class of Christian with our perfect doctrines and protocol. We are so beloved by God in our day at the slightest movement toward tribulation, He will come and deliver us because we are so special to him.

Christians all through time have suffered persecution and martyrdom and always hoped that God would come and deliver them. It was never worse than in the days of Diocletian. As you can see by the chart below he killed an estimated 450,000 Christians during his reign. Eusebius lived in that time and described in his book of Church history the endless numbers of beheadings that took place.

So Futurists, along with their distorted eschatology, have conveniently ignored this mass of early Christians. These are the forgotten heroes of early Christianity and deserve a special place of honor in our hearts because of the way they bravely accepted death rather than to bow to the statue of the beast.

Futurists are hyper-literalists, that is, they see everything as happening literally. How do you do this with a book that is plainly described as being signified. A sign points to something else - it is figurative and symbolic. To think that this symbolic book is to come to pass literally is an error which in no way can be corrected down the road. This is why we have this complicated mess of Futuristic eschatology all floating out before us in our future. And as I always say - there is not one single speculation made by the futurists that have come to pass in the last 62 years - not one. And there never will be because all of the prophetic writings of Daniel, Revelation, Ezekiel, Zechariah have already been fulfilled. Only the second coming and its associated events remain.

"The lost Christians."

MartyrslistJPG.jpg
 
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createdtoworship

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So Futurists, along with their distorted eschatology, have conveniently ignored this mass of early Christians. These are the forgotten heroes of early Christianity and deserve a special place of honor in our hearts because of the way they bravely accepted death rather than to bow to the statue of the beast.

Futurists are hyper-literalists, that is, they see everything as happening literally. How do you do this with a book that is plainly described as being signified. A sign points to something else - it is figurative and symbolic. To think that this symbolic book is to come to pass literally is an error which in no way can be corrected down the road. This is why we have this complicated mess of Futuristic eschatology all floating out before us in our future. And as I always say - there is not one single speculation made by the futurists that have come to pass in the last 62 years - not one. And there never will be because all of the prophetic writings of Daniel, Revelation, Ezekiel, Zechariah have already been fulfilled. Only the second coming and its associated events remain.

I believe the question is "how does God speak" does he speak to every age the same or merely to only a few of the day in which it was written. After all every verse in the Bible was written to someone who existed in Christ's day and not ours, should we therefore not read it?

Futurist and non futurist is like calvinism and arminianism, which are like free will and sovereignty....

it's 6 of one and half dozen of the other....

right? or wrong?
 
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Biblewriter

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So Futurists, along with their distorted eschatology, have conveniently ignored this mass of early Christians. These are the forgotten heroes of early Christianity and deserve a special place of honor in our hearts because of the way they bravely accepted death rather than to bow to the statue of the beast.
So Futurists, along with their distorted eschatology, have conveniently ignored this mass of early Christians. These are the forgotten heroes of early Christianity and deserve a special place of honor in our hearts because of the way they bravely accepted death rather than to bow to the statue of the beast.
It would be difficult to make statements about the history of Christian doctrine that would be more completely and demonstrably incorrect.

The truth is that no Christian teacher who wrote before sometime around the middle of the third century (and whose writings have been preserved) was anything but a futurist. This was so all pervasive in the early church that in the mid fifth century Jerome wrote that "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, ..." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)
 
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createdtoworship

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It would be difficult to make statements about the history of Christian doctrine that would be more completely and demonstrably incorrect.

The truth is that no Christian teacher who wrote before sometime around the middle of the third century (and whose writings have been preserved) was anything but a futurist.

If God is to be omnicient and omnipresent it is accurate to say that He would know the future and furthermore be a futurist himself. Wouldn't you agree? I would however mix and match contexts to be both futurist in application and non futuristic in observation and interpretation.
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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Futurists are hyper-literalists, that is, they see everything as happening literally. How do you do this with a book that is plainly described as being signified. A sign points to something else - it is figurative and symbolic. To think that this symbolic book is to come to pass literally is an error which in no way can be corrected down the road.

Everything as happening literally? I think you misrepresent futurists. Futurists do not interpret the dragon of Rev 12 literally. Futurists do not interpret it as an actual dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Instead futurists interpret the dragon as symbolic of Satan.

This is why we have this complicated mess of Futuristic eschatology all floating out before us in our future. And as I always say - there is not one single speculation made by the futurists that have come to pass in the last 62 years - not one. And there never will be because all of the prophetic writings of Daniel, Revelation, Ezekiel, Zechariah have already been fulfilled. Only the second coming and its associated events remain.

Once a person introduces the speculation of fulfilled events in present history, then there are by definition a historicist, not a futurist. Many futurists hold to imminent return of Christ, which is the same in essence as your last sentence.


LDG
 
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Codger

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I believe the question is "how does God speak" does he speak to every age the same or merely to only a few of the day in which it was written. After all every verse in the Bible was written to someone who existed in Christ's day and not ours, should we therefore not read it?

Futurist and non futurist is like calvinism and arminianism, which are like free will and sovereignty....

it's 6 of one and half dozen of the other....

right? or wrong?

My simple point is that when we read the book of Revelation we read it over the shoulders of those to whom it was originally written - like all books of the Bible. We have to determine from history what it meant to them then we can apply its principles and council to us in our day. It was already fulfilled in their day - except the one and only second coming and its assocuiated events.

Today so many have turned Revelation into a playground for eccentric speculations that all reside in the Future. If you start seeing First Century Christianity and read the accounts of what they were going through you will quickly realize that this was a very serious time in history and the book of Revelation was meant as a comfort to them in their persecution. Read Foxe's book of martyrs for a starter.
 
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Biblewriter

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My simple point is that when we read the book of Revelation we read it over the shoulders of those to whom it was originally written - like all books of the Bible. We have to determine from history what it meant to them then we can apply its principles and council to us in our day. It was already fulfilled in their day - except the one and only second coming and its assocuiated events.

Today so many have turned Revelation into a playground for eccentric speculations that all reside in the Future. If you start seeing First Century Christianity and read the accounts of what they were going through you will quickly realize that this was a very serious time in history and the book of Revelation was meant as a comfort to them in their persecution. Read Foxe's book of martyrs for a starter.

If this is the case, why did all the Christians who wrote about it in the first hundred years after it was written all conclude that it spoke of times far in the future.

The earliest non-scriptural Christian document which said anything about it was the Epistle of Barnabas. Some believe that this was written less than ten years after the Revelation was given, but others put it as far as between thirty and forty years later.

The fifteenth chapter of this epistle says, “The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: ‘And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.’Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, ‘He finished in six days.’ This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, will be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished."

As Christians of that day thought the world was between five thousand six hundred and five thousand seven hundred years old, they were looking for a fulfillment three to four hundred years into their future.

Further, the conclusion that these things were about the future was so all pervasive in the early church that in the mid fifth century Jerome wrote, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, ..." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)
 
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createdtoworship

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Today so many have turned Revelation into a playground for eccentric speculations that all reside in the Future. If you start seeing First Century Christianity and read the accounts of what they were going through you will quickly realize that this was a very serious time in history and the book of Revelation was meant as a comfort to them in their persecution. Read Foxe's book of martyrs for a starter.

I agree that we should observe first century contexts but we should apply these principles in a futuristic way (us being from the future that is). And I too agree that there are a lot of problems with fortelling and predicting things but prophecy is a huge portion of the Bible as well. So they are not wrong in and of themselves. Just maybe overstated.
 
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I am an American living in the Philippines. I have always considered myself a dispensational Baptist. Recently, I have been attending a neighborhood church that is Acts 9/Acts 13 dispensational. In Bible college, these groups were referred to as hyperdispensational. I am reading "Things that Differ" by C. R. Stam. The position on water baptism is only doctrinal statement that jumped off the page at me. Anyhow, I am now preaching and teaching there. I am somewhat conflicted, but blessed. I would appreciate any comments or light that you could shed on this.
 
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createdtoworship

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I am an American living in the Philippines. I have always considered myself a dispensational Baptist. Recently, I have been attending a neighborhood church that is Acts 9/Acts 13 dispensational. In Bible college, these groups were referred to as hyperdispensational. I am reading "Things that Differ" by C. R. Stam. The position on water baptism is only doctrinal statement that jumped off the page at me. Anyhow, I am now preaching and teaching there. I am somewhat conflicted, but blessed. I would appreciate any comments or light that you could shed on this.

I notice that hyper dispensational views doesn't work any better than classic dispensational views. But as long as you are not saying that no one was saved before Acts 13 your okay and not HYPER
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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I am an American living in the Philippines. I have always considered myself a dispensational Baptist. Recently, I have been attending a neighborhood church that is Acts 9/Acts 13 dispensational. In Bible college, these groups were referred to as hyperdispensational. I am reading "Things that Differ" by C. R. Stam. The position on water baptism is only doctrinal statement that jumped off the page at me. Anyhow, I am now preaching and teaching there. I am somewhat conflicted, but blessed. I would appreciate any comments or light that you could shed on this.

In the past I think mainstream dispensationalists overreacted a bit to hyperdispensationalism. I disagree with hyperdispensational conclusions, but I wouldn't call them heretics. I think you hit upon the major practical difference - baptism. Here in the US it seems doctrinal conflicts among dispensational groups are not as sharply contended as they used to be. I imagine outside the US those conflicts are even fewer.

Sounds like you are being blessed there, and being a blessing in return through teaching and preaching. Cordial relationships do count for a lot, and doctrinal differences can be handled with a mature agree-to-disagree attitude.


LDG
 
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Codger

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I agree that we should observe first century contexts but we should apply these principles in a futuristic way (us being from the future that is). And I too agree that there are a lot of problems with fortelling and predicting things but prophecy is a huge portion of the Bible as well. So they are not wrong in and of themselves. Just maybe overstated.

How about an example instead of generalizations.
 
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