Peter is the one who identifies
the elect exiles of the dispersion as Ephraim in
1 Peter 2:9-10.
I think I understand your argument now.
Because Peter quotes Hosea 2:23 in regards to the elect exiles of the dispersion, and because in the grammatical historical context, the "not my people" who are now his people refers to the 10 northern tribes, that Peter must be writing to the elect of Ephraim.
Initially it seemed you appeared ONLY to believe the 10 northern tribes were in the exile, because every time I brought up ALL 12 tribes being in the dispersion with James 1 and Acts 2, you would disagree.
We know Peter was an apostle to the circumcised
Galatians 2:7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised,
just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised.
And even just a little further down in 1 Peter 1, Peter states to keep you conduct "among the gentiles" honorable. Thus Peter, appears to be writing to biological Israelites.
1 Peter 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable,
I can concede to this, as it doesn't affect Paul's inclusion of the gentiles in the "once not my people" now "my people" as stated in romans 9.
That there are refugees from Judah with them does nothing to assert “seed”
Isaiah 54:3 refers to gentiles.
So it appears that you agree that the those from Judah, AND NOT JUST EPHRAIM, would be included in the descendants of the desolate woman.
I have never stated that the descendants were solely gentiles. I have repeatedly stated the descendants of the desolate woman are those of the new covenant: Jew, Ephraim, gentile, etc.... anyone from any race who is in Christ.
no doubt the citation from Hosea refers to Israel and not the gentiles.
I disagree with you here, Jerry.
You argument of Paul referring to Israel and not the gentiles in quoting hosea 2:23 means that those of the vessels of mercy that were not God's people, were the Jews.
Paul is specifically talking about the vessels of mercy in Romans 9:23-25. Those of the Jew and also from the gentiles. Paul clearly uses hosea 2:23 to refer to the vessels of mercy which include the gentiles.
Romans 9:24-25 including us,
whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people,
and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”
This is consistent with Paul revealing the mystery not known to previous generations, that the gentiles would be included as fellow heirs of the promises.
Ephesians 3:3-6 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. n reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.
Gentiles were never divorced from the covenant relation with Christ, Israel was, which is the implication of the citation from Hosea.
The implication of Hosea 2:23 in solely its grammatical historical context, prior to the revelation that the gentiles would be fellow heirs of the promises, is that the northern kingdom was divorced and scattered among the nations by Assyria. They became NOT GOD's PEOPLE. However, God promised that one day, they would again become God's people. This we agree on.
Now, how was that promise fulfilled? Both Paul and Peter quote from Hosea 2:23 as being fulfilled. Paul has it fulfilled with Gentiles being vessels of Mercy through Christ. Peter has it fulfilled with the elect in the dispersion coming to faith in Christ.
By the northern kingdom becoming "not God's people", they became the same as the gentiles in relation to God. Over 700 years many of them would mix with the gentiles, socially, religiously, and culturally. Many from these 10 northern tribes would become not so distinctly Israel.
So how does God fulfill his promise in hosea 2:23 to call those his people, who were not his people? By including all those from every nation to belong to the collective in Christ under the new covenant.
Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism,
but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right
**
Jerry, do you believe Ephraim can have more descendants than Judah outside of the New covenant?
Paul states nothing of the sort of which you write.
That's simply false Jerry. Paul explicitly states that the mystery of the gentiles being included in the people of God was not known in other generations. I've highlighted it in red in case you missed it in the previous post:
Ephesians 3:3-6 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
He states the gentiles are fellow heirs based on
Genesis 22:18 in
Galatians 3.
I agree
Genesis 22:18 the gentiles are blessed THROUGH the seed and that is how they are made fellow heirs.
I agree. and it is through the singular sense of the seed (Jesus) that they are fellow heirs. For neither Jew nor Gentile could become co heirs without Christ.
Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
The progressive revelation that the term “seed” has the singular sense meaning Christ is Paul’s contribution through the Holy Spirit, but it does not do away with the “collective” meaning of the biological descendants of Abraham in
Genesis 22:18. This is substantiated by Paul’s “collective” use of the term seed in
Galatians 3:29.
I agree and I would add: NOR does it do away with the collective-meaning that it includes the gentiles in the new covenant.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised,
barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
This is the collective sense of the “seed.” It substantiates that the term “seed” has a “singular” sense and a “collective” sense, the latter as “one body.”
Do you agree or disagree that the gentiles, Jews, and the 10 northern tribes are all included in this collective seed under the new covenant?
It would be safe to state the patriarchs had no grasp of the singular sense and that is why it is a progressive revelation.
I agree.
Progressive revelation can add information but it cannot take away what the original intent was
Just so we are on the same page. Progressive revelation doesn't mean it's new information that wasn't in the OT scripture before, it means that true understanding of scriptures wasn't available until Jesus came and sent to the Spirit to give us true understanding of the intent of the OT scripture.
Luke 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures
And this progressive revelation tells us that through Christ and the gospel, the gentiles are fellow heirs of the promises. Additionally, Paul reveals that this was not known in past generations, thus by just simply reading through the OT scriptures in the grammatical historical context, the mystery cannot be known. Only through the spirit can it be revealed as the fulfillment of the OT scriptures.
Ephesians 3:3-6 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
and that is exactly what your Replacement theology attempts.
Straw man argument Jerry. I never stated the Gentiles replaced Israel, I stated the gentiles were grafted in.
Paul reveals the gentiles are fellow heirs through Christ with the assistance of the biological descendants of Abraham,
"Assistance"? If you mean the biological descendants of Abraham sharing the gospel with the gentiles as the "assistance", then I agree. Through the gospel being brought to the gentiles, it would turn many of them to the one true God, thus grafting them in to the body of Christ, the collective.
Acts 15:12-14 The whole assembly fell silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul describing the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. When they had finished speaking, James declared, “
Brothers, listen to me! Simon has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own.
Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism,
but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right
Acts 10:44-45 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard his message. All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the
Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
Acts 28:28 Be advised, therefore,
that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”
Your perversion of Paul’s progressive revelation destroys the original intent that inclusion of the gentiles is accomplished through Christ’s assistance of the biological descendant of Abraham.
Another straw man argument. Those are easy to fabricate and tear down Jerry.
My intent is that the inclusion of the gentiles in Christ through the gospel makes them fellow heirs to the promises. Thus, gentiles are included in the new covenant. They DO NOT REPLACE the biological descendants who accept Christ.
How quickly you forget that I pointed out to you in particular that Zechariah prophecies another dispersion after the return from Babylon, which was clearly the one accomplished by the Romans, and that God promises to bring them back as if he had not rejected them.
Zechariah 10:6-12.
I disagree with your interpretation Jerry. The dispersion by the romans in 70ad was not a sowing, it was a punishment.
Luke 19:41-44 As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side.
They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God
For disobeying God, Israel would be scattered, not sown. 2 different Hebrew words.
פוּץ: to disperse or scatter
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the Lord will
scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known
זָרַע: to sow or scatter seed
Zechariah 10:9 Though I will
sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their children they shall live and return.
I would argue the sowing has to do with the coming of Christ in the flesh. For he is the son of man that sows the good seen in the world
Zechariah 10:9-10
Though I will sow them among the nations, they will remember Me in distant lands;
they and their children will live and return. I will bring them back from Egypt and gather them from Assyria. I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon until no more room is found for them.
Hosea 2:23
And I will sow her as My own in the land, and I will have compassion on ‘No Compassion.’
I will say to those called ‘Not My People,’ ‘You are My people,’ and they will say, ‘You are my God.
Jeremiah 31:27-28 The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when
I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the offspring of man and of beast. Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear them down, to demolish, destroy, and bring disaster, so
will I be attentive to build them and to plant them,” declares the LORD.
Matthew 13:37 He replied,
“The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom.
Out of one hand you state you agree with the grammatical-historical intent and out of the other you attempt to destroy it.
Notice the grammatical historical intent of Jeremiah 31:15
Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, and refusing consolation, because they are no more.”
Notice how Matthew has if fulfilled: with king Herod killing children
Matthew 2:16-18 Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: “A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and loud lamentation,
Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.”
Without Matthew, by the Holy Spirit, interpreting the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:15 with Herod killing children, would we have ever known that is what Jeremiah 31:15 was referring to?
Or would argue that Matthew is taking it out of the grammatical historical context and destroying the original intent.