Dispensationalism and Anti-victory

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Imaginosis

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Dispensationalism is a defeatist doctrine. It's not about winning; it's about losing. Dispensationalism tells Christian soldiers to fight a war they are going to lose.

Our founding fathers made America what it is based about Postmillennialism. Do you think our founding fathers could have had the courage to come to American and make America what is has become based on defeatism? I think not. Could they have drafted the Declaration of Independence and Constitution with a defeatist mentality? I think not.
 

Tractor1

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Imaginosis writes in another thread:

"Sometimes I feel like a blind man who touches many parts of the Elephant (ie, various facets of Reality) and believes he understands the Elephant, but is in reality utterly ignorant of the Elephant."

I believe you should also include dispensationalism to the various facets of reality of which you're ignorant.

In Christ,
Tracey
 
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Jerrysch

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Imaginosis said:
Dispensationalism is a defeatist doctrine. It's not about winning; it's about losing. Dispensationalism tells Christian soldiers to fight a war they are going to lose.

Where in the Bible do you get the idea that Christians loose?
Rev 20: 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This doesn't sound like a "defeatist doctrine" to me, unless you consider yourself a part of those whose name was not written in the book of life! Are you among those? Do you know? Would you like to know?
 
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Imaginosis

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Tractor1 said:
Imaginosis writes in another thread:

"Sometimes I feel like a blind man who touches many parts of the Elephant (ie, various facets of Reality) and believes he understands the Elephant, but is in reality utterly ignorant of the Elephant."

I believe you should also include dispensationalism to the various facets of reality of which you're ignorant.

I have embraced Postmillennialism to my Life and World View. I was once a dispensationalist, but it was incompatible as my theology became upgraded. This country was founded on people (eg, the Puritans) who had a victorious view of history. John Calvin and the writers of the Westminster Confession of Faith were Postmillennialist. Belief have consequences.
 
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drstevej

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Imaginosis said:
John Calvin and the writers of the Westminster Confession of Faith were Postmillennialist.

Please document.

Westminster Seminary which affirmed the Westminster Confession had profs when I attended that were mostly Amil with a few Post Mils and one Pre Mil. I am sure they would be interested in your documentation.
 
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Jerrysch

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Imaginosis said:
I have embraced Postmillennialism to my Life and World View. I was once a dispensationalist, but it was incompatible as my theology became upgraded. This country was founded on people (eg, the Puritans) who had a victorious view of history. John Calvin and the writers of the Westminster Confession of Faith were Postmillennialist. Belief have consequences.

What is it that you find in postmillennialism that most correctly reflects the doctrine as presented in the Bible?
 
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Jerrysch

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billwald said:
The world gets worse and worse until the Christians get raptured thus it is good that sin temporarially is increasing.


Untill??? As I read the Bible, once the influence of the church is removed there is then nothing to stop evil! Let me put it this way During WWII ~ 6 million Jews were killed, the Bible speaks of the great tribulation as being the greatest tribulation of ethnic Israel in all of history, it also says that 2/3 of the ethnic Jews will be killed, you do the math and see what the low estimate is for the death rate of the Jewish nation (maybe 12 million on the low side).
 
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JaseOnHorseback

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Imaginosis said:
Dispensationalism is a defeatist doctrine. It's not about winning; it's about losing. Dispensationalism tells Christian soldiers to fight a war they are going to lose.

Our founding fathers made America what it is based about Postmillennialism. Do you think our founding fathers could have had the courage to come to American and make America what is has become based on defeatism? I think not. Could they have drafted the Declaration of Independence and Constitution with a defeatist mentality? I think not.

I've notice dispensationalism among some has turned into a war-mongering, anti-evangelistic doctrine when it comes to political affairs today. In that sense it is very anti-victory.
 
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FreeinChrist

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JaseOnHorseback said:
I've notice dispensationalism among some has turned into a war-mongering, anti-evangelistic doctrine when it comes to political affairs today. In that sense it is very anti-victory.

I haven't seen that at all.

I also haven't seen the OP back up his statements.
 
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JaseOnHorseback

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While I can't speak for the OP, he probably has in mind the Puritans who were inspired by such men as John Winthrop, noted for his "shining city on a hill" sermon, as they sailed to America. They were postmillennialists who were very optimistic about the future. Their vision as they sailed from England was for the New World to be a nation under God and a light to the world proclaiming the gospel. The Puritans prayed for the conversion of the world to Christianity, and that the conversion of the Jews might be hastened.

This is in contrast to dispensationalism, that sees the world getting worse and worse. This has led to such attitudes as, "You don't polish the brass on a sinking ship". Many dispensationalists seem to deliberately want to fan the flames of war in the Middle East, for instance, in order to bring about their interpretation of the last days. For some, the gospel can no longer be preached to the Jews, since they are a "separate people of God". How tragic.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Well, I know lots of dispensationists and have read alot, and I think that impression is off. I isn't that they want "to fan the flames of war" in the Middle East. They are looking at what is and seeing a connection. Dispensationism isn't the cause of the unrest in the Middle East.
And in regard to this statement:
For some, the gospel can no longer be preached to the Jews, since they are a "separate people of God".
I have never once seen a dispensationist claim this. If someone does say something like this, they have an inaccurate view of dispensationism.
 
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JaseOnHorseback

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FreeinChrist said:
For some, the gospel can no longer be preached to the Jews, since they are a "separate people of God".
I have never once seen a dispensationist claim this. If someone does say something like this, they have an inaccurate view of dispensationism.

"The Jewish nation is never to enter the church."

J.N. Darby, The Hopes of the Church of God (London: G. Morrish, n.d.), p.106



John Hagee says Jews can come to God without going through Jesus Christ and trying to convert the Jews is a waste of time, as reported in the Houston Chronicle: “San Antonio fundamentalist battles anti-Semitism,” Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec. 6, pg. 1.

See "The Other Gospel of John Hagee": http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm

 
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JaseOnHorseback

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Some such as Jerry Falwell and John Hagee have been very involved in Middle East politics and supportive of Israeli policies. Falwell once received a Lear Jet from the Israeli government for his backing. This is all while the Torah Jews oppose Zionism (see www.jewsagainstzionism.com ).

From:
http://www.againstbombing.com/ArmageddonUpdates.htm

"According to them, Israeli government policies must never be criticized because Israel is doing God's will. But they do criticize any Israeli government which tries to bring peace, witness how Rabin and Barak were so attacked. These are the radical dispensationalists. Their alliance with the Israeli Lobby is very two sided; each thinks it is using the other for its own ends. The Likud gets crucial support in the Republican Party for its West Bank occupation and settlements. The Dispensationalists get encouragement in their belief that the end of the world will come sooner. They believe that they then will go straight to Heaven without the pain of dying, while the rest of the human race, including Jews who don't convert, will soon be wiped out with great suffering. In their passion for the return of Christ, these people forsake the most fundamental Christian principles of humanity towards human beings and even Christians in the Middle East. They humiliate Muslims everywhere. Any policies that promote conflict and misery in the Middle East are "good" for their ends."
 
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Jerrysch

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FreeinChrist said:
And in regard to this statement:
For some, the gospel can no longer be preached to the Jews, since they are a "separate people of God".
I have never once seen a dispensationist claim this. If someone does say something like this, they have an inaccurate view of dispensationism.

I agree, this does not represent the consept of dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is not a political issue, it is a Biblical one. It has there tennants; 1) To maintain the distinction between the two peoples of God, ethnic Israel and the church 2). A consistant literal hermenunic 3). The golry of God is not only concerned with sotieriological issues, but in bringing Golory to God by all Him works.
 
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JaseOnHorseback

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Jerrysch said:
Dispensationalism is not a political issue, it is a Biblical one.

For some, it's all about politics:

From http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030518-114058-5626r.htm
"A Washington conference of Christian and Jewish Zionists yesterday heard attacks on the U.S. "road map" for peace in the Middle East as a breach of a 4,000-year-old covenant between God and Israel.
"The land of Israel was originally owned by God," said Gary Bauer, president of American Values and a Republican presidential contender in 2000. "Since He was the owner, only He could give it away. And He gave it to the Jewish people."
The conference, underwritten by a $100,000 grant from Zionist House, a Boston-based Jewish group, appeared to be closely balanced between Christians and Jews, with a slight Jewish majority. Theological differences were put aside by the speakers, such as Jan Willem van de Hoeven, the Dutch-born founder of the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem.
"We may have disagreements about who [the Messiah] is," Mr. van de Hoeven said, "but He is not coming back to a mosque but to a third temple."
The remark alluded to prophecies of the Jews rebuilding their temple on Jerusalem's Temple Mount, replacing the Muslim Dome of the Rock. His words drew one of several standing ovations.

From : http://iraqwar.org/fundamentalists.htm

In 1978, Jerry Falwell traveled to Israel on a trip sponsored and paid for by the Israeli government. In 1979, the Israelis extended another free trip, during a period when Prime Minister Menachem Begin was in a rush to build Jewish settlements throughout the West Bank. The Rev. Falwell traveled the road toward the Palestinian town of Nablus and turned off the highway and stood at a cluster of prefabricated houses built by Jewish settlers. At that time, Falwell declared that God was kind to America only because "America has been kind to the Jews."

At a gala dinner in New York in 1980, Prime Minister Begin bestowed upon Falwell a medal named for Vladimir Jobotinsky, the right-wing Zionist leader. In 1981, when Israel bombed the nuclear reactor in Iraq, Begin immediately called Jerry Falwell for support.

Christian fundamentalists who donate generously to Jewish terrorism include oil and gas tycoon Terry Reisenhoover, a frequent White House visitor, Mission to America Chairman Dr. Hilton Sutton and Dr. James DeLoach, pastor of Houston’s Second Baptist Church who visited me … and boasted that he and others had formed a Jerusalem Temple Foundation specifically to aid those intent on destroying the mosque and building a temple.

Dr. John Walvoord, who teaches at Southwestern School of Bible in Dallas, explained the dispensationalist beliefs to Halsell: "God does not look on all of His children the same way. He sees us divided into categories, the Jews and the Gentiles. God has one plan, an earthly plan, for the Jews. And He has a second plan, a heavenly plan, for the born-again Christians. The other peoples of the world – Muslims, Buddhists, and those of other faiths as well as those Christians not born again – do not concern Him. As for destroying planet earth, we can do nothing. Peace, for us, is not in God’s book … ."

At a meeting of Christian Zionists in Basel, Switzerland, the group adopted resolutions calling for all Jews living outside of Israel to leave the countries where they are now residing and move to the Jewish State. The Christians also urged Israel to annex the West Bank. When an Israeli in the audience urged more moderate language, pointing out that an Israeli poll showed that one-third of Israelis would be willing to trade territory seized in 1967 for peace with the Palestinians, one of the Christian leaders, van der Hoeven of Holland, replied, "We don’t care what the Israelis vote! We care what God says! And God gave that land to the Jews!"
 
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