Dispensational???

[1stcenturylady]

I see many posts pro and con about dispensations. What are the different dispensations that we argue over and why?

 

[REM]

I see many posts pro and con about dispensations. What are the different dispensations that we argue over and why?

Please elaborate or give an example.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Please elaborate or give an example.

That's my question.

 

[Tree of Life]

I'm not sure that people argue over what different dispensations are. The primary argument concerns how the OT is related to the NT and the nature of the people of God. The two main views are classic Covenant Theology and classic Dispensationalism.

Covenant Theology correctly teaches that there has always ever only been one means of salvation (grace through faith in Jesus Christ) and that there has always ever only been one people of God - thus Israel and the church are much more continuous than discontinuous. In CT all of the OT still applies to believers today - although it is modified by the reality of Jesus Christ.

Dispensationalism is an error that teaches that God dealt differently at different times with different groups of people and that Israel and the church are two distinct entities which do not overlap. The Israelites would be saved by works and the church by grace through faith. In Dispensationalism much of the OT does not apply at all to believers today.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'm not sure that people argue over what different dispensations are. The primary argument concerns how the OT is related to the NT and the nature of the people of God. The two main views are classic Covenant Theology and classic Dispensationalism.

Covenant Theology correctly teaches that there has always ever only been one means of salvation (grace through faith in Jesus Christ) and that there has always ever only been one people of God - thus Israel and the church are much more continuous than discontinuous. In CT all of the OT still applies to believers today - although it is modified by the reality of Jesus Christ.

Dispensationalism is an error that teaches that God dealt differently at different times with different groups of people and that Israel and the church are two distinct entities which do not overlap. The Israelites would be saved by works and the church by grace through faith. In Dispensationalism much of the OT does not apply at all to believers today.

I see many different "dispensations" in the Bible that everyone agrees on, but what you are saying has to do only with the OT overlapping onto the NT or not. Is that correct? So that is what people mean when talking dispensations?

 

[redleghunter]

Dispensationalism is an error that teaches that God dealt differently at different times with different groups of people and that Israel and the church are two distinct entities which do not overlap. The Israelites would be saved by works and the church by grace through faith. In Dispensationalism much of the OT does not apply at all to believers today.

That's the 'hyper' variant of Dispensationalism.

 

[Tree of Life]

That's the 'hyper' variant of Dispensationalism.

I admit I do not subscribe to dispensationalism myself. Maybe you can offer a more balanced explanation of its views.

 

[Tree of Life]

I see many different "dispensations" in the Bible that everyone agrees on, but what you are saying has to do only with the OT overlapping onto the NT or not. Is that correct? So that is what people mean when talking dispensations?

It depends on what you mean by dispensation. There are certainly different ages and different administrations of the covenant.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It depends on what you mean by dispensation. There are certainly different ages and different administrations of the covenant.

As I've told you I'm asking what people on the forum mean when they speak (mainly against) dispensationalism. For instance, I see many changes in laws by God. Are each one of them considered a dispensation?

 

[Tree of Life]

As I've told you I'm asking what people on the forum mean when they speak (mainly against) dispensationalism. For instance, I see many changes in laws by God. Are each one of them considered a dispensation?

What changes in laws are you referring to?

 

[1stcenturylady]

What changes in laws are you referring to?

What is permissible to eat.

 

[Tree of Life]

What is permissible to eat.

The food laws are altered in light of Jesus Christ. You could call these two different ages (before Christ and after Christ) two dispensations. I would call them two administrations of the same covenant. The food laws original purpose was to keep the nation of Israel distinct from other nations. Now in Christ all nations are made clean and the physical separation of nations is not necessary.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The food laws are altered in light of Jesus Christ. You could call these two different ages (before Christ and after Christ) two dispensations. I would call them two administrations of the same covenant. The food laws original purpose was to keep the nation of Israel distinct from other nations. Now in Christ all nations are made clean and the physical separation of nations is not necessary.

I agree. I don't want to get off on a tangent only about food, but this is how I see it.

Beginning: vegetarian
After flood: everything that moves, but not its blood
To Jews: only clean food that were also acceptable for sacrifices since the beginning after Adam's sin.
Cornelius: gospel goes to the Gentiles, and food and man are no longer unclean

 

[Tree of Life]

I agree. I don't want to get off on a tangent only about food, but this is how I see it.

Beginning: vegetarian
After flood: everything that moves, but not its blood
To Jews: only clean food that were also acceptable for sacrifices since the beginning after Adam's sin.
Cornelius: gospel goes to the Gentiles, and food and man are no longer unclean

This looks like a Redemptive-Historical timeline of the theology of food. It would be an interesting study to do.

Some might call these different "dispensations". But "Dispensationalism" would tend to emphasize the discontinuity between these periods whereas Covenant Theology would want to emphasize the continuity. Yes, as the timeline unfolds things progress and transform, but we're still dealing with one God, one people, and one covenant between them.

 

[1stcenturylady]

This looks like a Redemptive-Historical timeline of the theology of food. It would be an interesting study to do.

Some might call these different "dispensations". But "Dispensationalism" would tend to emphasize the discontinuity between these periods whereas Covenant Theology would want to emphasize the continuity. Yes, as the timeline unfolds things progress and transform, but we're still dealing with one God, one people, and one covenant between them.

One covenant? I count a few.

 

[redleghunter]

I admit I do not subscribe to dispensationalism myself. Maybe you can offer a more balanced explanation of its views.

Salvation is by God's Grace in every covenant or dispensation. The older covenants or dispensations were types and shadows of the New covenant. All looking forward to Christ as Hebrews so nicely lays out.

I grew up in such a church but the doctrine was not central to define soteriology. It was more a doctrine of covenants (dispensations) on how God dealt with each 'epoch', what promises both physical and spiritual were made. Which ones were conditional and which ones were not. For example, the promises made to Abraham which we reap in Christ were not conditional. On the other hand, the promises made at Sinai, most were conditional on Israel's obedience in following the law and their reward for doing so was health, peace and the physical land of Israel. Again that was conditional and most importantly had nothing to do with eternal life but a piece of land in Israel.

That's what I got out of it. An enormous amount of time is spent on prophecy and who or what entity it is for etc. Again, nothing to do with how someone is 'saved' through the ages. More on the covenants---promises and fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm more a historic futurist now. And frankly have not got 'worked up' about eschatology in a long time. We all should know how it ends and the instructions and advice the apostles left was to be watchful and live pure lives. That's the eschatology I hold now and don't get involved in time charts and 8 hour videos posted on the internet.

So in a nut-shell traditional dispensationalism relates to the progression of revelation through the ages (Biblical) and how God deals with mankind at certain benchmarks we can clearly define from the Bible.

However, what you posted is what is called hyper or ultra-dispensationalism. Some churches have taken the dispensational model and wrongly divided the Word of God. To the point you have Acts 3 types, Acts 10, Acts 15 and in some cases Acts 28 or beyond types saying the church did not begin dot dot dot until then and everything said before in the Gospels and Acts is for the Jews. So there are so many variants out there and the traditional types like Walvood condemned such notions. That is why you have an impression dispensationalism has to do with defining soteriology. Originally it didn't.

HA Ironside wrote a piece on hyper-dispensationalism. This site gives a summary:

What is ultra-dispensationalism?

 

[Tree of Life]

One covenant? I count a few.

There's a few different ways to look at covenants in Scripture. From one perspective there are a few - God's covenant with Noah, God's covenant with Abraham, God's covenant with Israel at Sinai, God's covenant with David, the New Covenant etc...

But from another perspective these covenants are inextricably linked. Covenant Theology would view them as "dispensations" or "administrations" of one covenant that is ever unfolding and expanding as the story of the Scriptures unfolds.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Salvation is by God's Grace in every covenant or dispensation. The older covenants or dispensations were types and shadows of the New covenant. All looking forward to Christ as Hebrews so nicely lays out.

I grew up in such a church but the doctrine was not central to define soteriology. It was more a doctrine of covenants (dispensations) on how God dealt with each 'epoch', what promises both physical and spiritual were made. Which ones were conditional and which ones were not. For example, the promises made to Abraham which we reap in Christ were not conditional. On the other hand, the promises made at Sinai, most were conditional on Israel's obedience in following the law and their reward for doing so was health, peace and the physical land of Israel. Again that was conditional and most importantly had nothing to do with eternal life but a piece of land in Israel.

That's what I got out of it. An enormous amount of time is spent on prophecy and who or what entity it is for etc. Again, nothing to do with how someone is 'saved' through the ages. More on the covenants---promises and fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm more a historic futurist now. And frankly have not got 'worked up' about eschatology in a long time. We all should know how it ends and the instructions and advice the apostles left was to be watchful and live pure lives. That's the eschatology I hold now and don't get involved in time charts and 8 hour videos posted on the internet.

So in a nut-shell traditional dispensationalism relates to the progression of revelation through the ages (Biblical) and how God deals with mankind at certain benchmarks we can clearly define from the Bible.

However, what you posted is what is called hyper or ultra-dispensationalism. Some churches have taken the dispensational model and wrongly divided the Word of God. To the point you have Acts 3 types, Acts 10, Acts 15 and in some cases Acts 28 or beyond types saying the church did not begin dot dot dot until then and everything said before in the Gospels and Acts is for the Jews. So there are so many variants out there and the traditional types like Walvood condemned such notions. That is why you have an impression dispensationalism has to do with defining soteriology. Originally it didn't.

HA Ironside wrote a piece on hyper-dispensationalism. This site gives a summary:

What is ultra-dispensationalism?

Thanks, I'll read Ironside when I have time. I need to go rest a while.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There's a few different ways to look at covenants in Scripture. From one perspective there are a few - God's covenant with Noah, God's covenant with Abraham, God's covenant with Israel at Sinai, God's covenant with David, the New Covenant etc...

But from another perspective these covenants are inextricably linked. Covenant Theology would view them as "dispensations" or "administrations" of one covenant that is ever unfolding and expanding as the story of the Scriptures unfolds.

What do you think about the signs of the covenants. Do you believe in following the sign of a covenant once it has been fulfilled and a new covenant has taken its place? Or do you think the old covenant never ended?

 

[Tree of Life]

What do you think about the signs of the covenants. Do you believe in following the sign of a covenant once it has been fulfilled and a new covenant has taken its place? Or do you think the old covenant never ended?

If you're referring to circumcision then all who are New Testament believers have been circumcised by Jesus (Colossians 2:11). So by believing in Jesus I am obeying the command to be circumcised.