Dispensational Proposition #1

[Markea]

We have shown you many times...there is but ONE program today. However, if you persist in placing yourself and others under the program of times PAST...IE: Peter and the boys and the earthly words of Jesus...then you are preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL and ANOTHER Jesus, which we are warned NOT to do.

Read carefully, one word at a time....you can do it, I know you can.

You told me that I was in another program although you could not tell me what that program is..? ?

I mean is it that difficult..?

Or is it that you simply have no idea what you're talking about..

 

[eph3Nine]

You told me that I was in another program although you could not tell me what that program is..? ?

I mean is it that difficult..?

Or is it that you simply have no idea what you're talking about..

READ MY LIPS...if you are promoting Peter and the boys and the earthly Jesus, you are promoting, and IN the WRONG PROGRAM.

Dialogue over...

 

[biblebeliever123]

We have shown you many times...there is but ONE program today. However, if you persist in placing yourself and others under the program of times PAST...IE: Peter and the boys and the earthly words of Jesus...then you are preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL and ANOTHER Jesus, which we are warned NOT to do.
.

There is one way of salvation in this dispensation...believing the good news that Christ died for your sins, was buried, and rose again for your justification. Upon believing/trusting that good news as payment for your debt and penalty of sin you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption and baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. (1 Cor. 15:3,4; Romans 4:25, Eph. 1:13, 1 Cor. 12:13)

Following the distinctive message and ministry given to and through the apostle Paul is the program we( all believers/members of the body of Christ) are to follow...NOT the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ but rather the 'heavenly' ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ...that body of truth that the risen, ascended Lord from glory gave to Paul to give to usward.

IF a person is saved they ought to know what 'program' they are following.

 

[Markea]

READ MY LIPS...if you are promoting Peter and the boys and the earthly Jesus, you are promoting, and IN the WRONG PROGRAM.

Dialogue over...

So tell us eph..

WHO is promoting WHO ..? Can you tell us who is promoting who..?

Nope, didn't think so..

 

[eph3Nine]

biblebeliever wrote:

Following the distinctive message and ministry given to and through the apostle Paul is the program we( all believers/members of the body of Christ) are to follow...NOT the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ but rather the 'heavenly' ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ...that body of truth that the risen, ascended Lord from glory gave to Paul to give to usward.

IF a person is saved they ought to know what 'program' they are following.

That seems pretty straight forward to me. Thanks biblebeliever

 

[Markea]

So why do people like eph make claims that others are on another program, and then not be able to tell them what program they're on..?

Who here on these threads are on a another program..and what program is it..?

You made the claim.. and you can't even say what it is..

 

[Markea]

Do you see how ridiculous this stuff gets..?

People start telling other people that they're on some other program and then they can't tell them what it is.. they can't back it up.. they make these huge generalizations about people and in reality they have absolutely no idea what they're speaking about..

 

[eph3Nine]

Israels program=Gen thru Acts and Hebrews thru Revelation
OUR program/present day=Romans thru Philemon

Ya mix em up and you ARENT promoting the CURRENT program but ANOTHER Program...one not in operation any longer. This is the other gospel , other jesus that Paul warns about.

Cant make it any simpler, markea. Which set of instructions are YOU Following? Its EITHER that of Peter and the boys and the earthly Jesus, OR that of the RISEN LORD, OUR HEAD, of HIS Body?

That will tell you what program YOU are operating in. I think the rest of us KNOW where we are, you seem to be the only one confused....lol

 

[Markea]

Israels program=Gen thru Acts and Hebrews thru Revelation
OUR program/present day=Romans thru Philemon

Ya mix em up and you ARENT promoting the CURRENT program but ANOTHER Program...one not in operation any longer. This is the other gospel , other jesus that Paul warns about.

Cant make it any simpler, markea. Which set of instructions are YOU Following? Those of Peter and the boys and the earthly Jesus, or OUR HEAD, of HIS Body?

That will tell you what program YOU are operating in. I think the rest of us KNOW where we are, you seem to be the only one confused....lol

That's fine with me if you want to believe all this stuff eph.. whatever it is you want.. it doesn't matter to me one bit.. seriously..

BUT.. when YOU tell me that I'm on some other program and then are not capable in the least to tell me what program that is.. then wouldn't you agree that it's a little ridiculous..?

You TOLD ME that I was on another program.. you haven't told me what that program is.. and you still will not..

Because it's simply another ridiculous claim of yours without any merit to it at all.. end of story.

 

[eph3Nine]

aha....so now we come to the real crux of the matter. You are indeed operating in a program which God STOPPED and have been CAUGHT AT IT, red handed. So just admit it...and we can all get on to other things besides watching you try to dance around a simple and straightforward question.

Its really not all that difficult. Try it. Admit ..."I was wrong", come on now...its not all that painful.

As for me, Im goin out to dinner with my hubby. Now theres a good way to spend ones time.

 

[Markea]

aha....so now we come to the real crux of the matter. You are indeed operating in a program which God STOPPED and have been CAUGHT AT IT, red handed. So just admit it...and we can all get on to other things besides watching you try to dance around a simple and straightforward question.

Its really not all that difficult. Try it. Admit ..."I was wrong", come on now...its not all that painful.

As for me, Im goin out to dinner with my hubby. Now theres a good way to spend ones time.

So here it is folks.. eph's claim that I'm indeed operating in a program which God stopped, and I've been caught red handed at IT..

You're too funny eph.. enjoy your dinner.. hopefully you're a little better at eating than you are at accusing others of operating in another program..

 

[eph3Nine]

So here it is folks.. eph's claim that I'm indeed operating in a program which God stopped, and I've been caught red handed at IT..

You're too funny eph.. enjoy your dinner.. hopefully you're a little better at eating than you are at accusing others of operating in another program..

There is no reason for me to "accuse you" or anyone else of anything. Your own words tell the whole story for anyone who can read them.

I had a great dinner with the hubby and have no more trouble eating than I do with seeing issues as they REALLY ARE. Im pretty good at both, actually.

 

[Markea]

There is no reason for me to "accuse you" or anyone else of anything. Your own words tell the whole story for anyone who can read them.

I had a great dinner with the hubby and have no more trouble eating than I do with seeing issues as they REALLY ARE. Im pretty good at both, actually.

In case you haven't noticed eph.. you're the only one accusing anyone of being in a different program.. and just because you see things and make claims.. that doesn't make them true.. again.. in case you haven't noticed that or you're unaware of that..

Now, I understand that you believe that you're always perfectly correct in everything you see and claim.. although most of us understand how completely arrogant that that point of view actually is.

 

[eph3Nine]

In case you haven't noticed eph.. you're the only one accusing anyone of being in a different program.. and just because you see things and make claims.. that doesn't make them true.. again.. in case you haven't noticed that or you're unaware of that..

Now, I understand that you believe that you're always perfectly correct in everything you see and claim.. although most of us understand how completely arrogant that that point of view actually is.

Ya know...you may insult me, call me names, ridicule me, and I count it ALL joy! I never accused anyone...you have insisted on calling it that, but all I have done is to point out what program we ARE in today, and that Paul, filled with the Spirit, warns us against deviating from in ANY way, shape or form. Those that DO, are indeed enemies of the Cross...but I didnt say it: scripture did.

I am also not always correct. But when I simply BELIEVE what Gods word says, I am right more often than NOT..you can be too. Simply read it, believe it and rightly divide it. Then we can both be better informed than those who dont.

Its a simple choice...now, why dont you go hug your wife or walk your doggie. Something edifying...it will do ya a world of good.

By the way, Merry Christmas.

 

[Markea]

I never accused anyone...you have insisted on calling it that, but all I have done is to point out what program we ARE in today

Here's your accusation eph.. in case you're too blind to see it..

You are indeed operating in a program which God STOPPED and have been CAUGHT AT IT, red handed.

Although in REALITY.. you have no idea what you're talking about and to prove that.. I'm sure that you can not (and will not) actually tell me what program I am indeed operating in..

This thread was going well until you felt the need to give your seal of approval to something that was said.. as if that matters at all.. but I'm just as foolish to respond to your continuous false claims.. so take care eph.. and you have a Merry Christmas as well.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Latecommer to the tread, I never did understand the either/or thing. But then I see us all as God's people and the Jews as His Chosen people. None of whom are necessairly confied to a "nation" of any borders.


How about them lost tribes? Any thoughts?

 

[eph3Nine]

Latecommer to the tread, I never did understand the either/or thing. But then I see us all as God's people and the Jews as His Chosen people. None of whom are necessairly confied to a "nation" of any borders.


How about them lost tribes? Any thoughts?

]

What do you do with all the scripture that addresses Israel as a NATION? You are making the same error that many make today...NOT seeing the distinctions and thereby blurring the lines that God has placed there for a reason.

God knows where the tribes are, and he says there will only be TWELVE of any significance to Him.

The Body of Christ however, is a new and wondrous thing. Those who were Gods people in times PAST didnt get to enjoy or even KNOW about His Secret plan for a BODY, where He would join the TWO as ONE...Jew and gentile, in this present dispensation of Grace.

Your apostle has information for YOU, that wasnt given to those of times past. Entirely different directions, plan of salvation, and destiny...One is headed for an earthly reign, and one for a heavenly one.

 

[GLJCA]

And for brevity, I'll respond one at a time..

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Let me suggest that Paul is speaking TO and about the church of God here in Eph 3.. and we know that within the church of God that there is neither Jew or Gentile.. but one new man from the two..

Although the mystery Paul speaks of in Romans 11:25-29 is concerning Israel being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

So what would you suppose that means.. ie, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and keep in mind that within the church of God there is neither Jew or Gentile..

On a slightly different thought.. although one which also uses the word until.. what would you say that it means.. specifically, when our Lord said that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.. ?

Why would the Lord speak of the times of the Gentiles if there would no longer be Jews and Gentiles in the church of God..?

What is the only nation on this planet that is not considered a Gentile nation ?

As mentioned, for brevity.. I'll respond to your other points in another post.

First let me say that I am sorry for not getting back to you quickly on this but since Hurricane Rita hit us head on we have been busy cleaning and fixing up our homes. We are getting there but it sure does take time.

Ok let me address this point by saying that you are right there is no difference between the Jew or the Gentile in the Church, but that is dealing with our equality in the sight of God. It doesn't not negate their ethnic origins.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
This does not mean that everyone is now unisex in God's sight, since there is no male or female. The man still has authority over the woman in a marriage relationship according to Paul (1Cor 11:3). If there is no male nor female then how could Paul talk about the marriage relationship or headship in Eph 5? How could Paul tell the wife to submit to her husband if there is no male nor female? This verse is dealing with our standing before God concerning salvation, not our ethnic origin or our sexual orientation. I don't think you can use that verse in that way.

Now, I have no problem with the verse in Rom 11:25. The times of the Gentiles is talking about the time alotted for the Gentiles to be grafted into the Church. During the times of the Gentiles, the Jews will be coming to the Lord. Also after that times of the Gentiles the Jews will return to the Lord either in mass or one at a time and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour. When they do, they will be grafted back into the Covenant (olive tree) according to Rom 11, where the OT saints and the NT believers(Jews and Gentiles) already reside.

They can not return to the Lord without belief in the finished work of Christ on the cross (Acts 4:12). There is no salvation in any other name. What happens when someone gets saved according to the scripture you talked about in Rom 11? They will be grafted back into the Olive Tree. Haven't we been grafted into the olive tree? That is telling me that the Jews and Gentiles will be together in the Church, the New Jerusalem, throughout eternity?
Rom 11:23-24 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

When we look at the context of the mystery in Romans 11:25-29.. the Israel that is being spoken of is the nation.. because Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

Israel is the only nation that is not a Gentile nation.. keep this in mind when thinking about the Lord's comments concerning Jerusalem being trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.. the times of the Gentiles are depicted in Nebuchadnezzars dream which was interpreted by God through the prophet Daniel. Gentiles still have dominion over this planet today..as we're still within the times of the Gentiles..

In Acts 15, James says that the prophets agree with this.. that the Lord is taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name.. ie, Christians.. and that after this He will return and build agin the Tabernacle of DAVID which is fallen down and in ruins..

When was the church of God ever in ruins..? Or when has it fallen down..?

This is not a prophecy from James talking about something that is going to happen in the future. James is quoting a prophecy from Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
James is telling them what God is doing right then. Jesus raised the tabernacle of David in His own body. The tabernacle of David was fallen in the OT and Jesus raised it in the NT.

James shows in this next verse that he is not speaking of a future event but something that is happening right then.
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
James is saying that God is taking out a people for His namesake right now and the temple that will be torn down has already been rebuilt in the body of Christ, of which we are. Paul tells the Corinthian believers that their bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Jamison, Fausett and Brown commentary says this about the tabernacle of David. "Tabernacle" is appropriate to Him, as His human nature is the tabernacle which He assumed in becoming Immanuel, "God with us"
Matthew Henry says this, The church militant, in its present state, dwelling as in shepherds’ tents to feed, as in soldiers’ tents to fight, is the tabernacle of David. God’s tabernacle is called the tabernacle of David because David desired and chose to dwell in God’s tabernacle for ever, Ps. 61:4.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, tabernacled among us and we tabernacle in Him.

Tell me do you really think that God will raise up a Millennial Temple and allow sacrifices to be offered in what you call the millenial reign of Christ? Wouldn't that be a slap in the face of His Son's sacrifice who is reigning at that time? If Christ is reigning why wouldn't He stop those sacrifices? Here He offered up the perfect sacrifice and He is going to allow the Jews to kill animals for the purpose of offering sacrifices for their sins... I don't think God will allow that to happen. In fact I personally don't believe that the temple will ever be rebuilt.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

I don't believe that this fits with the thematic nature of the scriptures.. take the story of Joseph in Genesis for example.. Joseph is a picture of Christ..

Jacob (Israel) had other sons (Joseph's brethren) who hated him..and threw him into a pit.. then sold him to the Gentiles (Ismaelites) for 20 pieces of silver.. God is with him, and he goes from the pit to the prison to the throne.. and gives a revelation of a coming period of prosperity and then famine.. Jacob's sons are sent to him (unknowingly) in their deepest time of need and Jospeh finally reveals himself to them and supplies all their need..

JACOB.. (Israel) learns late in his life that the son of his old age (who he believed was dead through deception - ie, his coat was dipped in blood and shown to him) IS ALIVE, and RULER OVER ALL..

So we see thematically that the story has already been told.. and Israel will one day look upon the One whom they have pierced.. and they will mourn for Him in that day.. the Day of the Lord..



This would be like calling Jacob the church of God.. although the church is the Lamb's bride.. His wife.. and if we go back to the story of Joseph.. wouldn't ya know that we're taught that he took a Gentile bride while hidden from his brethren in a Gentile land..

The story tells the story..

All glory and praise be to our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.. the God of the living.. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

All I am saying Markea is that when a prophecy is re-quoted in the NT it is because it is being fulfilled in the New Testament, therefore when Paul quoted this verse he wasn't prophesying something that was to come but something that was already here.

I must say you lost me in your explanation of Joseph. I can't quite understand where you are coming from in your connection to this prophecy. Could you explain a little more? I can agree with what you said concerning Joseph but I don't see the connection to what this verse is saying.

In the context of verse 25 Paul is saying that the Jews will be blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles is accomplished. In 11:26 Paul is quoting Isa 59:20 showing that it is being fulfilled in the Church. Every time a Jew comes to Christ the ungodliness of Jacob is being turned.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:

Let me ask what Paul was saying here.
1. Was he saying that even those who rejected Christ and refused to believe were still going to be saved since they were Israel?
2. How about all the Jews that have died in their sins between the 1st century and now, will they be saved since they are Israel?
3. How about all the Jews that die today will they be saved since they are Israel?

Since ALL of these Jews are Israel. are they going to be saved even though they died in unbelief? I don't think you want to say that.

Paul is speaking about election and the remnant here. The ALL ISRAEL that Paul is talking about is the remnant of God. Those that God has reserved for himself. Those that He has ordained to eternal life(Acts 13:48) Sure they believed in Him but who gave them the faith to do it, since Jesus is the author and finisher of faith? He had to opened their understanding(Luke 24:45) because Romans 3 says that there is none that understand. He had to quicken them(Eph 2:5), which means that He made them alive because their spirit was dead in sin and they couldn't make themselves alive. No dead man can make himself alive.

So if ALL ISRAEL is talking about the nation of Israel you have problems with Hebrews 4 which tells us that those Jews who died in unbelief God refused to allow them to enter into His rest. So ALL could not be talking about ALL here and Israel is not talking about the Nation of israel. That is why Paul defined what a Jew really was in Romans 2.

GLJCA