Dispensational Proposition #1

[GLJCA]

Dispensational Proposition #1.



God has two distinct programs in history, one for Israel and one for the Church.



Dispensationalists site that the Church and Israel are not the same because Israel is the nation and chosen people of God in the Old Testament and the Church is the New Testament chosen people of God.

During most of the Old Testament era there were essentially three groups of people: the gentile nations, national Israel, and true Israel. True Israel is often mentioned in the Old Testament as the remnant (Isa 10:21-22) Though the nation of Israel was often involved in idolatry, apostasy and rebellion, God always kept for Himself a remnant who trusted in Him and who would not bow the knee to Baal (1 Kings 19:18). Hebrews 11 lists a number of those who were among true Israel. True Israel included men and women such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Deborah, Hannah, David, Joash, Isaiah and Daniel to name a few. Of all those born physical Israelites, only the believers were true Israel. When Jesus was born, the faithful remnant of true Israel included believers such as Simeon and Anna (Luke 2:25-38) During Jesus earthly ministry the true Israel was most visible in His true disciples, who believed in Jesus the Messiah. Those who did not believe in Jesus were not true Israel regardless of their race. Included in those were the scribes and Pharisees, who hated Jesus. Though they were physical Jews, they were not true Israel (Romans 2:28-29)


True Israel has always been the True Church, but never before was that connection so clearly seen. The faithful remnant of old Israel became the nucleus of the new Israel. The unbelieving branches were cut off but the remnant or believing branches(true Israel) remained on the olive tree. Remember it was only the unbelieving branches that were cut off and the believing branches of the Gentiles were grafted into the same olive tree. There are not two olive trees in Romans 11, only one. The Church existed in the Old Testament but only in the seed form as the true Israel.
The church--True Israel-- was, is, and always will be distinct from the Christ-rejecting nation of Israel in the same way that it is distinct from the Christ-rejecting gentile nations.

Are Old Testament believers, True Israel, distinct from New Testament believers? No!!


A true Israel always existed within the nation of Israel. Most of these Old Testament believers lived and died before the Messiah came. Some lived to see His day, and they rejoiced. By the day of Pentecost, all who had ever been part of the true Israel, whether dead like Moses or alive like Peter, were united to the risen Christ. Since that day every believer, whether Jew or Gentile, has been united to the one good olive tree.
In the Old Testament how were people saved? Were they saved by keeping the law? Were they saved by faith? Faith in what? Abraham was justified the same way we were, by faith. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Did true Israel ceased to be true Israel simply because God has decided to ingraft believing Gentiles? The true Israel was and is the true church, and the true church is the true Israel.

Paul in Gal. 3 shows the dispensational division of Old Testament believers from New Testament believers is false and unbiblical. Dispensationalism seeks to divide the Church instead of unite it.

The number one foundational doctrine of dispensationalism is wrong, in saying that God has two chosen peoples. If the foundation is faulty then the whole belief is faulty.

GLJCA

 

[Markea]

GL,

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts concerning the mystery which Paul does not want Christians to be ignorant of.. in Romans 11:25-29..

If there is no distinction between the true Israel (Israel of God) and the church of God as you say.. then what is Paul speaking of here..? Why does he speak in the context of GENTILES when he speaks of Israel being blinded in part UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..?

Why would Paul say that the Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB..?

What does the verse mean which says that this is My covenant with THEM..?

Why would they be enemies as far as the GOSPEL is concerned and yet beloved as far as God's elective purposes are concerned.. ?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[GLJCA]

GL,

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts concerning the mystery which Paul does not want Christians to be ignorant of.. in Romans 11:25-29..

If there is no distinction between the true Israel (Israel of God) and the church of God as you say.. then what is Paul speaking of here..? Why does he speak in the context of GENTILES when he speaks of Israel being blinded in part UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..?

Why would Paul say that the Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB..?

What does the verse mean which says that this is My covenant with THEM..?

Why would they be enemies as far as the GOSPEL is concerned and yet beloved as far as God's elective purposes are concerned.. ?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

These are very good questions, Markea. I will try to answer them as you have asked them.

Paul uses the term "Mystery" several times throughout his writings and each one has to be dealt with in it's context. There is the mystery of the kingdom(Mrk 4:11), the mystery of the relationship between Christ and His Church(Eph 5), there is the fellowship of the mystery(Eph 3:9), mystery of the faith(1Tim 3:9), the mystery of godliness(1Tim 3:16), the mystery of iniquity(2Thes 2:7), the mystery of Christ(Eph 3:3-6), etc. There are many mysteries that Paul has talked about and to say that there is only one mystery Eph 3:3-6 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Here Paul explains clearly that the mystery is that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ. How do we get two entities out of that. If we are to be fellowheirs of the same body and partakers of the promise then there are not two peoples of God only one.

If there is no distinction between the true Israel (Israel of God) and the church of God as you say.. then what is Paul speaking of here..? Why does he speak in the context of GENTILES when he speaks of Israel being blinded in part UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..?

The definition of True Israel is not the Nation of Israel. If you will notice the first few verses in Romans 11 he is not talking about the Nation of Israel he is speaking of the remnant, which is true Israel.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
We need to keep that in mind when we are reading this passage unless we take out of context that which is said.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
This is the reason Jesus spoke in parables so that those with faith would understand and those without didn't, even though all were of the nation of Israel all who did not have faith did not receive the understanding but were blinded. Notice it says that God gave them a spirit of slumber so that they wouldn't see it. These were Jews who were given the promises of the covenant but who had no faith and therefore were not considered Jews at all(Rom 2). Paul goes on to say that ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED and I believe that is true. The Jews will come back either in mass or one at a time, in faith, to be grafted back into the olive tree. They will have to believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour to be grafted back into the Covenant. Once they do then they will be grafted back into the olive tree along with the believing Jews in the OT and the believing Jews and Gentiles in the NT, creating the ALL ISREAL that Paul is alluding to.

Why would Paul say that the Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB..?

Paul was quoting a verse from Isa 59:20 where Isaiah made the prediction of the coming Messiah. Paul was not making that prediction for the future but was quoting the prophecy that was looking to the future, predicting that Israel shall be saved. The Deliverer had come and had turned away the ungodliness from Jacob at Pentecost where 5000 heard and heeded the gospel message and afterwards when God has added to the Church daily those Jews who believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. He is still turning the ungodliness away from Jacob everytime a Jew comes to know the Lord Jesus Christ. In the meantime God has also grafted the believing Gentiles into Covenant Israel as they believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour, making us Jews and Gentiles "one new man". Have you ever asked yourself the question of why there is only one olive tree and not two? If you will go back into the OT and look up olive tree you will find out that Covenant Israel was called an olive tree.
Ps 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
Ps 128:3 Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table.
Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
The olive tree is Covenant Israel and since we are grafted into it we have become Israel. Therefore Israel defined by Paul are those who are grafted into the olive tree, those who are the remnant of God according to election, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, those are the "All Israel" that will be saved.

What does the verse mean which says that this is My covenant with THEM..?

God made the Covenant with Covenant Israel, not with the nation of Israel. Paul shows us that fact in Romans 2 where he says that he is not a Jew who is one outwardly but he is a Jew who is circumcised in his heart. Paul did not discount the outward but said that it wasn't enough. God required the outward sign of the covenant but He also required the inward sign or that person wasn't a true Jew. Paul distinguishes who is a Jew and who isn't by that standard. If we apply that standard then the unbelieving Jews that were cut out of the Covenant were not Jews at all and therefore the covenant did not pertain to them. Also those Jews who are not believers today fall into Paul's standard. They are not Jews at all according to Paul.

Now Paul in Romans 2:26 also says that a Gentile who keeps the righteousness of the law makes uncircumcision into circumcision. Which means that a Gentile, like Cornelius, who worships God, his faith is counted the same as circumcision. He goes on to tell the Galatians that if they are Christ's then they are Abraham's seed and heirs of the promise. What promise? It is the promise given to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ. The covenant was promised to Abraham and his seed and now that you and I have been grafted into Covenant Israel(Rom 11) we have become as much Israel as Isaac was(Gal 4:28)

Why would they be enemies as far as the GOSPEL is concerned and yet beloved as far as God's elective purposes are concerned.. ?

Again we have to remember that the context here is speaking of election. The unbelieving Jews are enemies of the gospel, just as you and I were before we believed. Those Jews who have believed and those who will believe in the future are God's beloved just as you and I are today. We must remember that election does not occur daily but occurred before the foundation of the world. All Israel, comprised of believing Jew and Gentile from Abraham to you and I, was elect before the foundation of the world.

This has gotten long and I apologize for my long winded explanations but I don't believe that your questions could be answered in 10 words or less. If I have missed something it was not intentional. Please ask it again if I missed your point.

GLJCA

 

[Markea]

These are very good questions, Markea. I will try to answer them as you have asked them.

And for brevity, I'll respond one at a time..

Paul uses the term "Mystery" several times throughout his writings and each one has to be dealt with in it's context. There is the mystery of the kingdom(Mrk 4:11), the mystery of the relationship between Christ and His Church(Eph 5), there is the fellowship of the mystery(Eph 3:9), mystery of the faith(1Tim 3:9), the mystery of godliness(1Tim 3:16), the mystery of iniquity(2Thes 2:7), the mystery of Christ(Eph 3:3-6), etc. There are many mysteries that Paul has talked about and to say that there is only one mystery Eph 3:3-6 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Here Paul explains clearly that the mystery is that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ. How do we get two entities out of that. If we are to be fellowheirs of the same body and partakers of the promise then there are not two peoples of God only one.

Let me suggest that Paul is speaking TO and about the church of God here in Eph 3.. and we know that within the church of God that there is neither Jew or Gentile.. but one new man from the two..

Although the mystery Paul speaks of in Romans 11:25-29 is concerning Israel being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

So what would you suppose that means.. ie, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and keep in mind that within the church of God there is neither Jew or Gentile..

On a slightly different thought.. although one which also uses the word until.. what would you say that it means.. specifically, when our Lord said that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.. ?

Why would the Lord speak of the times of the Gentiles if there would no longer be Jews and Gentiles in the church of God..?

What is the only nation on this planet that is not considered a Gentile nation ?

As mentioned, for brevity.. I'll respond to your other points in another post.

 

[Markea]

The definition of True Israel is not the Nation of Israel. If you will notice the first few verses in Romans 11 he is not talking about the Nation of Israel he is speaking of the remnant, which is true Israel.

When we look at the context of the mystery in Romans 11:25-29.. the Israel that is being spoken of is the nation.. because Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

Israel is the only nation that is not a Gentile nation.. keep this in mind when thinking about the Lord's comments concerning Jerusalem being trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.. the times of the Gentiles are depicted in Nebuchadnezzars dream which was interpreted by God through the prophet Daniel. Gentiles still have dominion over this planet today..as we're still within the times of the Gentiles..

In Acts 15, James says that the prophets agree with this.. that the Lord is taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name.. ie, Christians.. and that after this He will return and build agin the Tabernacle of DAVID which is fallen down and in ruins..

When was the church of God ever in ruins..? Or when has it fallen down..?

 

[Markea]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
We need to keep that in mind when we are reading this passage unless we take out of context that which is said.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now this is a difficult portion.. although when looked at carefully I think that we need to agree that it can not be speaking of individuals as much as it is speaking of the nation.. because look what it says..

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy..

INDIVIDUALS within ISRAEL falling did not bring salvation to the Gentiles.. the falling of the NATION brought salvation to the Gentiles..

This must be the case because Israel existed for a long period of time without everyone being a true Israelite so to speak..

 

[Markea]

This is the reason Jesus spoke in parables so that those with faith would understand and those without didn't, even though all were of the nation of Israel all who did not have faith did not receive the understanding but were blinded. Notice it says that God gave them a spirit of slumber so that they wouldn't see it. These were Jews who were given the promises of the covenant but who had no faith and therefore were not considered Jews at all(Rom 2). Paul goes on to say that ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED and I believe that is true. The Jews will come back either in mass or one at a time, in faith, to be grafted back into the olive tree. They will have to believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour to be grafted back into the Covenant. Once they do then they will be grafted back into the olive tree along with the believing Jews in the OT and the believing Jews and Gentiles in the NT, creating the ALL ISREAL that Paul is alluding to.

I'll be careful here.. I understand that you're a calvinist. I am not..

I suggest that the reason for Israel being cast away is shown to us in that THEY tried to establish their own righteousness and would NOT SUBMIT to the righteousness of God which is by FAITH.. this is what the scriptures teach me.. Paul says that it's not that the word of God was ineffective.. or even that they did not know.. but rather that they would not submit themselves to the righteousness of God which is by FAITH.. and faith we're taught goes all the way back to the beginning..

 

[Markea]

Paul was quoting a verse from Isa 59:20 where Isaiah made the prediction of the coming Messiah. Paul was not making that prediction for the future but was quoting the prophecy that was looking to the future, predicting that Israel shall be saved.

I don't believe that this fits with the thematic nature of the scriptures.. take the story of Joseph in Genesis for example.. Joseph is a picture of Christ..

Jacob (Israel) had other sons (Joseph's brethren) who hated him..and threw him into a pit.. then sold him to the Gentiles (Ismaelites) for 20 pieces of silver.. God is with him, and he goes from the pit to the prison to the throne.. and gives a revelation of a coming period of prosperity and then famine.. Jacob's sons are sent to him (unknowingly) in their deepest time of need and Jospeh finally reveals himself to them and supplies all their need..

JACOB.. (Israel) learns late in his life that the son of his old age (who he believed was dead through deception - ie, his coat was dipped in blood and shown to him) IS ALIVE, and RULER OVER ALL..

So we see thematically that the story has already been told.. and Israel will one day look upon the One whom they have pierced.. and they will mourn for Him in that day.. the Day of the Lord..

The Deliverer had come and had turned away the ungodliness from Jacob at Pentecost where 5000 heard and heeded the gospel message and afterwards when God has added to the Church daily those Jews who believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

This would be like calling Jacob the church of God.. although the church is the Lamb's bride.. His wife.. and if we go back to the story of Joseph.. wouldn't ya know that we're taught that he took a Gentile bride while hidden from his brethren in a Gentile land..

The story tells the story..

All glory and praise be to our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.. the God of the living.. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

 

[Markea]

Gotta run, I'll try to answer to the rest of your post later.

 

[Markea]

God made the Covenant with Covenant Israel, not with the nation of Israel. Paul shows us that fact in Romans 2 where he says that he is not a Jew who is one outwardly but he is a Jew who is circumcised in his heart. Paul did not discount the outward but said that it wasn't enough. God required the outward sign of the covenant but He also required the inward sign or that person wasn't a true Jew. Paul distinguishes who is a Jew and who isn't by that standard. If we apply that standard then the unbelieving Jews that were cut out of the Covenant were not Jews at all and therefore the covenant did not pertain to them. Also those Jews who are not believers today fall into Paul's standard. They are not Jews at all according to Paul.

Now Paul in Romans 2:26 also says that a Gentile who keeps the righteousness of the law makes uncircumcision into circumcision. Which means that a Gentile, like Cornelius, who worships God, his faith is counted the same as circumcision. He goes on to tell the Galatians that if they are Christ's then they are Abraham's seed and heirs of the promise. What promise? It is the promise given to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ. The covenant was promised to Abraham and his seed and now that you and I have been grafted into Covenant Israel(Rom 11) we have become as much Israel as Isaac was(Gal 4:28)

Let me focus in on your last statement here which I have emboldened.. as I believe that it gets to the point which I believe that you're trying to make..

The NT never refers to a believing Gentile as an Israelite.. but rather as a CHRISTIAN.. because we're IN CHIRST.. and it's clear in the NT that within the church of God, there is neither Jew or Gentile, but a new man IN CHRIST.

Paul speaks of becoming all things to all men so that he may win them.. and he tells Christians in his letter to the Corinthians that we should give no offense.. not to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.

So just because a Jew does not believe the gospel.. this does not mean that they're not a Jew.. because why would Paul make the distinction if there were only true Jews..?

The portion which Paul speaks of in Romans 2 pertains to the inward man don't you think..? The Lord spoke of those who appeared clean on the inside but remained filthy within.. as He can see the heart.. although that doesn't mean that they're not Jews..

Remember the Lord told us that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the GENTILES until the times of the GENTILES be fulfilled..

Paul tells us that ISRAEL is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

These statements make it clear to me (at least) that there is a distinction between the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God today.. just as Paul says..

 

[Markea]

Again we have to remember that the context here is speaking of election. The unbelieving Jews are enemies of the gospel, just as you and I were before we believed. Those Jews who have believed and those who will believe in the future are God's beloved just as you and I are today. We must remember that election does not occur daily but occurred before the foundation of the world. All Israel, comprised of believing Jew and Gentile from Abraham to you and I, was elect before the foundation of the world.

I personally believe that many folks confound election with salvation. In Romans 9 Paul speaks of the purpose of God according to election.. in that the elder shall serve the younger.. to me, this isn't speaking about who is saved and who is not saved.. but rather the purpose of God in what HE has elected..

As for you and I.. we were not elected from the foundation of the world.. Christ was.. and our place (destination) IN CHRIST was elected.. but not we as individuals.. before we were saved, we too were vessels fit for destruction.

Paul says that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, and AFTER we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, and AFTER we believed, that God sealed us with the SPIRIT of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption.. that's when we were saved.. not elected.. AND God elected that every person who places their faith and trust in Christ, would be accepted IN THE BELOVED..

That's election is my estimation.. it's not about individuals.. but about the individual.. Jesus Christ.. God's beloved Son.. as we're accepted IN HIM..

Israel will one day look upon the One whom they have pierced.. and they will mourn for Him in that Day.. and they will receive Him as their King.. as this has been foretold..

Although right now.. the Lord is still building His church and calling out a people for HIS name.. CHRISTians.. and this will continue until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

THEN we'll see the Deliverer come from Sion and turn away ungodliness from Jacob.. in that Day..

The Day of Jesus Christ.. which is as a thousand years..

 

[eph3Nine]

Markea said:

As for you and I.. we were not elected from the foundation of the world.. Christ was.. and our place (destination) IN CHRIST was elected.. but not we as individuals.. before we were saved, we too were vessels fit for destruction.

Paul says that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, and AFTER we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, and AFTER we believed, that God sealed us with the SPIRIT of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption.. that's when we were saved.. not elected.. AND God elected that every person who places their faith and trust in Christ, would be accepted IN THE BELOVED..

That's election is my estimation.. it's not about individuals.. but about the individual.. Jesus Christ.. God's beloved Son.. as we're accepted IN HIM..

Israel will one day look upon the One whom they have pierced.. and they will mourn for Him in that Day.. and they will receive Him as their King.. as this has been foretold..

Although right now.. the Lord is still building His church and calling out a people for HIS name.. CHRISTians.. and this will continue until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

Never thot I would hear myself saying this, but this once, I do agree with Markea. Gulp...looking around for lightning to hit me....wink.

 

[Markea]

Markea said:

Never thot I would hear myself saying this, but this once, I do agree with Markea. Gulp...looking around for lightning to hit me....wink.

WOW !

Does this mean that I'm no longer an enemy of the cross of Christ..?

 

[eph3Nine]

WOW !

Does this mean that I'm no longer an enemy of the cross of Christ..?

Unfortunately.......No. We go to scripture to find who they are...if you are mindful of "earthly things" rather than heavenly, and reject Pauls message...that puts you in that category. Its actually YOUR choice.

 

[Markea]

Unfortunately.......No. We go to scripture to find who they are...if you are mindful of "earthly things" rather than heavenly, and reject Pauls message...that puts you in that category. Its actually YOUR choice.

How would I know.. ? You could never tell me which program I am in..

 

[eph3Nine]

There is but ONE program today. Paul has it. Anyone who goes back to Peters message and ministry and the words of Christ while He was on the EARTH, is putting himself under ANOTHER GOSPEL and ANOTHER JESUS.

The RISEN , Glorified Lord speaks to US , thru Paul. Now...you tell us. Which words are YOU going by today? That will tell you what program YOU are trying to place yourself in, and you dont belong there.

This is what happens when we dont rightly divide.

 

[Markea]

so which program am I in eph..?

In the past you had claimed that I'm in some other program.. although you never could tell me which program that it is... even after you started approx 10 threads concerning programs..?

 

[eph3Nine]

so which program am I in eph..?

In the past you had claimed that I'm in some other program.. although you never could tell me which program that it is... even after you started approx 10 threads concerning programs..?

Give it up. Circular reasoning tells us alot....

 

[Markea]

Just another example of you making a claim and then not being able to substantiate it at all.. I have given up on the fact that you might be able to tell me what program I am in..

 

[eph3Nine]

We have shown you many times...there is but ONE program today. However, if you persist in placing yourself and others under the program of times PAST...IE: Peter and the boys and the earthly words of Jesus...then you are preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL and ANOTHER Jesus, which we are warned NOT to do.

Read carefully, one word at a time....you can do it, I know you can.