Dispensational Premillennialism????

Would you define me as a Dispensational Premillennialist?

  • No

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I think you have some aspects of this belief pattern.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I think that you have many aspects of Dispensational Premillennialism.

    Votes: 1 50.0%

  • Total voters
    2

Brian Mcnamee

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You would be wrong.

From the Wiki article titled "Dispensationalism":

"Dispensationalism developed as a system from the teachings of Joh Darby, considered by some to be the father of dispensationalism (1800–82), who strongly influenced the Plymouth Brethren of the 1830s in Ireland and England. The original concept came when Darby considered the implications of Isaiah 32 for Israel. He saw that prophecy required a future fulfillment and realization of Israel's kingdom. The New Testament church was seen as a separate program not related to that kingdom. Thus arose a prophetic earthly kingdom program for Israel and a separate 'mystery' heavenly program for the church. In order to not conflate the two programs, the prophetic program had to be put on hold to allow for the church to come into existence. Then it is necessary for the church to be raptured away before prophecy can resume its earthly program for Israel"

Dispensationalists say there is only one means of salvation: that which comes through faith in Christ but when the logical consequences of the two-part dispensational system that asserts one plan for Israel and another for the church is considered it results in a different means of salvation for the Jew than for everyone else. Israel must go through the tribulation and before that happens they must be reconstituted as a geo-political nation-state and that nation-state will necessarily begin practicing the OT Law again, including the re-institution of animal sacrifices. That is in fact what Dispensationalism teaches will happen.

All of that is works. AND it is pre-faith in Christ works. They won't come to faith in Christ before such events according to DPism.

So while Dispensationalists say there is only one means of salvation the logically necessary conclusion of their theology proves otherwise. And this problem has been brought to their attention repeatedly and they deny it.

I hesitate to rcommend this book because I don't want anyone learning bad theology but Lewis Sperry Chafer's book titled "Dispensationalism" is the best of the bunch. Chafer is the founder and first president of Dallas Theological Seminary. His book is much, much better than Charles Caldwell Ryrie's book with the same title. Ryrie is Chafer's successor at DTS and he's the one who set John Walvoord as president of DTS after him. Chafer's book is better than Walvoord's. It's better than Pentecost's. Chafer at least cited scripture every step of the way and attempted a methodical explanation of DP theology.
The problem with all of these guys is that when you look up the Bible verses they cite the Bible verses don't state what they say the verses say. It's very shoddy exegesis. It is eisegesis.
.

The New testament states quite plainly Abraham heard the gospel.

Galatians 3:8 NAS
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All nations will be blessed in you.'"

And Paul explains to us that Israel was not the "seed" to which God was referring when He covenanted with Abraham.

Galatians 3:16 NAS
"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as referring to many, but rather to one, 'And to your seed,' that is, Christ."

Christ, not Israel, is the means by which Abraham would be the father of many nations. That is what the text states, not what I made it say. Here's the larger passage,

Galatians 3:2-18 ESV
"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.' Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' But the law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, 'And to offsprings,' referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise."

The reason Dispensationalism is called Dispensationalism is because it asserts dispensations and it asserts these dispensations are distinct ways God dealt with humanity. Abraham didn't have the Mosaic Law and the Promised Land Hebrews did while those of the church living in the church age have still a different dispensation, a different economy, a different means of relating to God. Prior to Darby all of Christendom understood the ECF's mention of "dispensations" to uniformly occur in the context of the Bible's covenants and the church uniformly understood the covenants to be a progressive and cohesive single revelation. Darby departed from all of that.

So you say you can't imagine they teach such stuff but they do. Dispensational Premillennialism does not teach dual salvation overtly but it is inherent in the details of their eschatology. The Jew must jump through one bunch of hoops and the Gentiles another. Fundamentally it is two means to faith in Christ which is - whether they want to admit it or not - two means of salvation.
Hi i have been a pro dispensationalist in this thread and noted no one ever was or ever will be saved apart from the redemption of the blood of Jesus Christ. The dispensation or as Hebrews calls it the ages to come is a period of time such as pre flood and then up until Jesus and then the church age and soon to be the kingdom age followed by the new heaven and new Jerusalem. The prophecies show that Israel will be saved by faith in Jesus Christ and they will confess Him as LORD. The return of the sacrifices are coming and they are not acceptable as a means of forgiveness but the next temple will be the stage for the abomination of desolation. It appears that some sacrifices described in Ezekiel's temple may be done in memorial or for ceremonial reasons much like how we celebrate communion. There are many distinctions between Jew and Gentile in the post day of the LORD world. Both will still be around. Read Isaiah 61 and see what is accomplished in the day of vengeance of God. As I have already noted Jer 31 speaks of Jerusalem being rebuilt at a time when dead bodies are everywhere and from that time on it will not be thrown down again. If you compare Zech 14, Dan 7 Rev Joel and Hosea they all describe a time when Jerusalem is being overrun when the kingdom comes. This will be the time when it is rebuilt and the time when the Jews gathered back to the mountains of Israel in Eze 36 will no more be the reproach of the nations. It will be when Hosea said to those whom God called not his people that they should be called the sons of the living God.
Luke 2 Jesus is promised to deliver Israel form their enemies to a day where they will worship without fear in holiness all the days of their lives. This is post trib into the millennium.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. Those chapters of the coming kingdom I mentioned provide this exact deliverance for the nation and their conversion by faith in Jesus.
 
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Josheb

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Hi i have been a pro dispensationalist in this thread and noted no one ever was or ever will be saved apart from the redemption of the blood of Jesus Christ....
You just wasted my time, your time, and everyone else's time. How? Because you didn't actually address any of the substance of any of my posts. You went off on your own agenda and tried to sell me on DPism. AND you did exactly what I said DPists do: change the topic and bring in a pile of scripture before addressing the point at hand and in disregard of resolving that matter.

So pay attention, Brian. Take note of my handle because I'm not gonna collaborate with that dross.

You've also just proved what I said correct! You've claimed "no one ever was or ever will be saved apart from the redemption of the blood of Jesus Christ," but then proceeded to explain how that is accomplished differently for one group than another. Pay attention: two means of coming to the blood of Christ is two means of salvation.


Now deal with that fact.

Or don't.

But please don't post another lengthy post that doesn't attend to he problem to be solved.

From the op:
Dispensational Premillennialism, for example, is a wretched set of doctrines that bear little support in scripture and since its inception in the mid-1800s it has divided the body greatly. Think not? Watch the responses this post gets.

It compromises long-held and well-established core doctrines of the church.
It causes its adherents to live divided and hypocritical lives.
It asserts a hermeneutic none actually practice.
It has repeatedly fostered false prognosticators and continues to do so.
It does not hold those proven to teach falsely accountable.
No other mainstream theology generates such misconduct in frequency or severity.

Dispensationalists deny every one of these concerns but as they go about asserting and defending their theoology they invariably prove the list correct, as you just did. One of the core doctrines of the church DPism compromises is soteriology. Even as they claim salvation can occur only through the blood of Christ they claim there are two paths to that saving blood.

You just proved me correct and did so because the substance of the matter was ignored.

Now are you gonna get miffed at me for pointing that out to you or are you gonna rise to the occasion and provide a reasonable and rational defense of DPism the proves me wrong?

Or have you now seen that DPism does in fact have a problem in its soteriology that should be addressed in-house by Dispensational Premillennialsist so that it is more consistent with the rest of Christendom? I am not alone in observing this porblem. Several other posters here have noted the same problem.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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You just wasted my time, your time, and everyone else's time. How? Because you didn't actually address any of the substance of any of my posts. You went off on your own agenda and tried to sell me on DPism. AND you did exactly what I said DPists do: change the topic and bring in a pile of scripture before addressing the point at hand and in disregard of resolving that matter.

So pay attention, Brian. Take note of my handle because I'm not gonna collaborate with that dross.

You've also just proved what I said correct! You've claimed "no one ever was or ever will be saved apart from the redemption of the blood of Jesus Christ," but then proceeded to explain how that is accomplished differently for one group than another. Pay attention: two means of coming to the blood of Christ is two means of salvation.


Now deal with that fact.

Or don't.

But please don't post another lengthy post that doesn't attend to he problem to be solved.

From the op:
Dispensational Premillennialism, for example, is a wretched set of doctrines that bear little support in scripture and since its inception in the mid-1800s it has divided the body greatly. Think not? Watch the responses this post gets.

It compromises long-held and well-established core doctrines of the church.
It causes its adherents to live divided and hypocritical lives.
It asserts a hermeneutic none actually practice.
It has repeatedly fostered false prognosticators and continues to do so.
It does not hold those proven to teach falsely accountable.
No other mainstream theology generates such misconduct in frequency or severity.

Dispensationalists deny every one of these concerns but as they go about asserting and defending their theoology they invariably prove the list correct, as you just did. One of the core doctrines of the church DPism compromises is soteriology. Even as they claim salvation can occur only through the blood of Christ they claim there are two paths to that saving blood.

You just proved me correct and did so because the substance of the matter was ignored.

Now are you gonna get miffed at me for pointing that out to you or are you gonna rise to the occasion and provide a reasonable and rational defense of DPism the proves me wrong?

Or have you now seen that DPism does in fact have a problem in its soteriology that should be addressed in-house by Dispensational Premillennialsist so that it is more consistent with the rest of Christendom? I am not alone in observing this porblem. Several other posters here have noted the same problem.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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If you read all my posts on this thread I noted that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God it was accounted to him for righteousness. Yet Abraham was in the grave with Lazarus Jesus told us and all those who were declared righteous by faith still waited until the blood of the new covenant was shed. Then Jesus set free those captives and in Rev the multitude there sing to the lamb that he is worthy and that he redeemed them by his blood from every tribe tongue kindred and nation. The future redemption of national Israel is when they come by faith to Jesus as LORD and savior and all who perish apart from this will indeed not stand at the great white throne. But many will have their names written in the book at that time Jesus comes they confess the LORD is one. This is glorious. It is funny how lots of scripture to you is a waste of time especially when the scriptures tell us to rightly divide the word of truth so when we share how we see it divided you are offended. In a debate arguments not answered go on to score points and i have put together a cohesive analysis in support of my position. Its ok if you want to pout but I share what I feel are the important issues regardless of your reluctance to counter these ideas.



Jer 23 3 “But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the LORD.


5 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,

“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;

A King shall reign and prosper,

And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

6 In His days Judah will be saved,

And Israel will dwell safely;

Now this is His name by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

7 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”
 
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Josheb

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If you read all my posts on this thread I noted that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God it was accounted to him for righteousness....
You just did it again.

Last chance, Brian.

Can you and will you deal with the fact that both DPism and you teach a salvation that necessarily requires Jews to come to the saving blood of Christ in a manner different than everyone else?

Because if not then I'll be moving on and ignore the posts here in this op bearing your handle hoping the next time we trade posts you'll have learned to address the relevant matter(s) cogently.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Wiki will get you started. Here is the Wiki article on Dispensationalism. Here is a link to Theopedia's article describing Dispensationalism and providing links for further exploration, and here is a link to a critique of the model from Monergismdotcom. That site contains others if you use the search feature.


The six concerns I stated are matters typically stated in assertions of or critiques of Dispensational Premillennialism. These are conditions revealed from the consideration of the logically necessary conclusions from DP's common positions and practices. For example, Dispensationalism affirms salvation is through faith in Christ alone but in actuality it requires Jews of the millennial dispensation to 1) be Jews and 2) return to the old laws. Logically this is a works-based doctrine. It is not a faith-alone doctrine. It is a wokrs-before-faith-in-Christ doctrine! In other words, that view contradicts the claim of faith alone or faith in Christ and Spiritual regeneration begetting obedience. This, in turn, is one example of how DPism compromises core Christian doctrines that have stood as such for nearly two millennia. As the conversation unfolds I can and will show how DPism compromises long held theology about the nature of God, long-held Christology, long-held ecclesiology, and not just long-held soteriology.

Everyone is aware that Dispensational Premillennialists have been predicting the return of Christ over the last fifty years and not a single one of those predictions has ever come true. What many don't know is the history of false predictions, time-frame setting and prognostication that has occurred since Darby first asserted DPism in the erly- to mid-1800s. More recently, given the failed prediction of Chuck Smith, John Walvoord (former president of Dallas Theological Seminary), Hal Lindsey, Harold Camping, Edgar Whisenant, John Hagee and others Dispensational Premillennialists have begun to refrain from setting specific dates but they continue to assert more tenuous time frames claiming the world is going to go to hell any day now and we Christians are going to be raptured away. We hear/read this in the messages from the likes of David Jeremiah, Michael Oxentenko, Jack Hibbs and many others who say they believe Jesus is coming back within their lifetime. David Jeremiah is is 78 years old. If he lives to be 80 or 85 or even 90 then Jesus is coming back soon. In all likelihood Jesus will not be coming back in the next two to seven years and Jeremiah will die without being held accountable for teaching falsely.

Let me note at this point that I do not think most of these men are lying. A lie necessarily entails willful deceit. A falsehood does not entail deceit; it is simply an incorrect fact or factual error. I don't think John Walvoord or David Jeremiah intend to deceive anyone but they are definitely teaching falsely.

The consequence of this is that we have a very large section of the body of Christ who genuinely believe what they hear and read but don't actually live in a manner consistent with DP teaching. If a person genuinely believes the world is coming to hell in a handbasket in the next two, five, ten years then there is no sense in taking out a mortgage on a house or saving for your retirement because you re not going to be here to spend that money! Such actions betray the belief and the teaching. It also conflicts with Biblical principles of stewardship: it's not a good use of resources to invest where it will not be used. The DPist should not be saving up wealth but spending o converting as many as they can before they get raptured off the planet. There have been individuals who have endeavored to live this way. Robert Fitzpatrick spent his wealth on advertising to persuade others to prepare for the rapture as Camping predicted only to lose it all.

No other eschatological model causes this kind of unscriptural and irrational behavior.

From its outset DPism has asserted a few core positions, two of which are 1) the church is corrupt, and 2) prophesy should rendered literally. The problems with this second position is that they don't actually read prophesy literally, they read it literalistically, and this can be seen in the response "There will be a literal fulfillment of the prophesy. Well, duh. All eschatological positions believe scripture's prophesys will be fulfilled. We literally all believe that. But we don't believe a third of the literal stars will literally fall from the sky. DPists claim to read scripture literally but they don't do so consistently; they do so selectively.

No other eschatological model causes this kind of unscriptural and irrational behavior.

Perhaps worst of all is the image of God, Christ, and Christianity this presents the world. Hal Lindsay's books in the early 1980s were very popular. Christian and non-Christian read them but in the end the prediction Jesus was coming back by 1988, a generation after the founding of Israel, proved wrong and hundreds of thousands of people relegated what they thought was Christianity to the looney bin.




Dispensational Premillennialism arose in the early and mid-1800s as one of the restoration movements common during that era in history. Others that arose during that time include the CoC, SDAs, the JWs, and the LDS. One of the fundamental tenets was the church had become corrupt and was in need of restoration so they either emphasized NT-era conditions or created new revelation. They all emphasized the apocalypse and did so as a means of promoting imminence and urgency. They also emphasized personal experience over creed. This began a generation earlier with John Wesley, an Anglican minister who did not set out to form a new denomination. In the expanding America there wasn't always an institutional authority to provide orthodoxy or accountability for itinerant circuit preachers riding the west of the country. In Europe, where there were institutional accountability structures, there was uniform resistance. Hence the forming of new sects and denoms. John Darby managed to stay within the pale of orthodoxy because many of his views remained consistent with the church's historical doctrines but his view of eschatology (a rarely used term prior to the 1800s) was radically different. He also believed the church should separate itself from the world entirely and not be involved in politics or social policy but should work to purify itself (based on his view of what the NT church looked like). The Roman Catholic Church was the first and most prominent interpretations of Revelations harlot. It doesn't see to have occurred to the the DPists of that era that much of what they practiced came for the the RCC and was not NT-era doctrine or practice. The NT-era ekklesia did not have one single man responsible for the spiritual growth of all others in a congregation. The NT-era ekklesia did not have stages or lecterns or men wearing special designating garments and backwards collars. The NT-era ekkelsia did not have worship services centered on a sermon. The NT era church did not celebrate December 25th or some of the other holy days of the modern church. These are all subsequent additions to the Christian practice yet the DPers ignored all of that in favor of dividing the body of Christ, judging much of it heretical or apostate while holding on to some of the most non-NT practices.




Now everything I have posted about the doctrines and history can be verified with a little bit of Googling. I encourage all of you, including the DPists, to do just that. I've provided some introductory links to begin the process. I'm happy to discuss any topical op-relevant content, but I will ignore any personally derisive content. Keep the posts about the posts. Note that I haven't specified anything specific about the eschatology of DPism itself. This isn't about whether or not Jesus is returning next year or ten years from now. This is about the logically necessary consequences of such a belief. This is about the logically necessary consequences of a variety of positions DPism asserts so I won't be debating the specific eschatology with anyone. Given the position Dispensational premillennialism, look at what has happened!

No other theological position causes these problems and if and where there are problems they are not as frequent or as severe.

my apologies for the length
HI there is no salvation for Israel other than coming to Christ Ezekiel 36 is important as it talks of the day that those who are gathered back to the mountains of Israel.
This section shows Israel is born again in this day and not saved by Judaism.

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

They get the spirit and Gods laws in their hearts at this time. This is future and not a dual way of salvation as you assert
 
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Josheb

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HI there is no salvation for Israel other than coming to Christ Ezekiel 36 is important as it talks of the day that those who are gathered back to the mountains of Israel.
This section shows Israel is born again in this day and not saved by Judaism.

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

They get the spirit and Gods laws in their hearts at this time. This is future and not a dual way of salvation as you assert
You've now avoided the issue a third time and proven what I said correct.

In order for those in Israel to be saved they must first do a bunch of stuff.

They have to be reconstituted as a geo-political nation-state. That's works.
They have to rebuild the temple of stone. That is works.
There's going to be a return to the Levitical Law. That is works.
There's going to be a return to the system of animal sacrifices. That's works.

Dispensational Premillennialism does not teach a way for Israel to be saved apart from them first doing a bunch of works!

Dispensationalism says they believe in only one means salvation (the blood of Christ) but in actuality what they teach is works-plus-blood.



I will not belabor the point with you further because this has become a Titus 3:9-11 condition. The problem was described. I asked that it be attended to and both the issue and the request were ignored. A second time I asked that the unnecessarily re-stated issue be addressed and the ensuing content once again proved the works-plus-blood doctrine is true of DPism. A third opportunity was provided and the response is still a failure to address the works-plus-blood condition of DP soteriology for the Jews.

You have God having two soteriologies. You have God having a works-plus-faith-in-Christ-s-blood salvation for the Jew and a faith-in-the-blood-of-Christ-that-begets-good-works salvation for the Gentile.

It's not scriptural and it betrays the claim of one salvation.

I'm am glad you posted responses, Brian, because it demonstrated for the readers the problem to be solved. It is hard to see the picture from inside the frame so I earnestly recommend you try to take a step back from your own DPism and attempt to read through these last three posts between us objectively to see if you can better see what happened. You proved my point and demonstrated the problem to be solved: a compromise to core Christian doctrine.

Two means of attaining faith in the shed blood of Christ is two means of salvation.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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You've now avoided the issue a third time and proven what I said correct.

In order for those in Israel to be saved they must first do a bunch of stuff.

They have to be reconstituted as a geo-political nation-state. That's works.
They have to rebuild the temple of stone. That is works.
There's going to be a return to the Levitical Law. That is works.
There's going to be a return to the system of animal sacrifices. That's works.

Dispensational Premillennialism does not teach a way for Israel to be saved apart from them first doing a bunch of works!

Dispensationalism says they believe in only one means salvation (the blood of Christ) but in actuality what they teach is works-plus-blood.



I will not belabor the point with you further because this has become a Titus 3:9-11 condition. The problem was described. I asked that it be attended to and both the issue and the request were ignored. A second time I asked that the unnecessarily re-stated issue be addressed and the ensuing content once again proved the works-plus-blood doctrine is true of DPism. A third opportunity was provided and the response is still a failure to address the works-plus-blood condition of DP soteriology for the Jews.

You have God having two soteriologies. You have God having a works-plus-faith-in-Christ-s-blood salvation for the Jew and a faith-in-the-blood-of-Christ-that-begets-good-works salvation for the Gentile.

It's not scriptural and it betrays the claim of one salvation.

I'm am glad you posted responses, Brian, because it demonstrated for the readers the problem to be solved. It is hard to see the picture from inside the frame so I earnestly recommend you try to take a step back from your own DPism and attempt to read through these last three posts between us objectively to see if you can better see what happened. You proved my point and demonstrated the problem to be solved: a compromise to core Christian doctrine.

Two means of attaining faith in the shed blood of Christ is two means of salvation.
Hi no they do not have to do a bunch of other stuff to get saved just believe. Its like Jesus needed to die and rise again but he also was born in Bethlehem and lived in Galilee and was called out of Egypt. These are details that were prophesied to happen. The description of those in Ezekiel 36 is certainly that of being born again and any Jew today can have that experience. The fact is that God has told us in advance what by and large will happen does not change the requirement for salvation or open the door to being saved based on works it is just the national and global destiny of what is coming and it is very specific. If you write down and sort out all the prophecies on this subject they are congruent and lined up in a literal sense. I see you have taken pot shots at those who have held this literal view and I remind you that Jeremiah was a very young man when sent to proclaim the same message that was not fulfilled until he was a very old man. The themes of the late 70's and early 80's are indeed the same. Pastors then could not imagine a worse moral decline than they had seen in the previous 25 years. So now look at the last 10 years the highest court has affirmed gay marriage and the trans rights groups attached themselves to that civil rights train and our morality now much more then back then is as the days of Sodom.
They also saw the middle east situation and the possibility of Gog Magog and the two state solution as well as the rise into a one world government. These things as well as the return of the sacrifice are necessary to set the stage for the final 7 years. They thought Europe would rise and eventually a 10 state super state would emerge while the US would decline and that would be the beast kingdom. This is proven to be wrong and not by the scriptures being wrong but by making a wrong assumption of how it will play out. The NWO is a real goal and the merging of the faiths into a unified group is also happening. The 10 heads will be 10 regional rulers like one head over the EU. The seal judgements will come as there will be a global collapse of the monetary system. The new system comes in Rev 13 and that is when the beast is revealed in the temple and has exactly 42 months to go. The temple institute has everything prepared for the return of the sacrifices which is predicted to happen. Those guys in the 70's and 80's will be proven right that we are indeed seeing prophecy coming to pass. The scenario is coming very much as expected and indeed is much more fully developed today that it was back then. Its like walking with your eyes shut and expecting to hit a wall and you really had no idea that you were so far from the wall so you prematurely expected it early.
 
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His student

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Would you mind clarifying that? What, exactly, specifically, do read as the straw man being asserted?
My mistake. I need to proof read my posts better in the future.
It should have read "does not equate".
That's a big difference. (Although it doesn't seem to be the source for our differences as outlined in your post that follows.)
From the Wiki article titled "Dispensationalism":
For starters you need to be careful when citing a "Wiki" article as a source for what others believe. Quite often they are posted on those who, just like many here in the forum, have an axe to grind and don't mind misrepresenting others a bit in order to do it.:)
Dispensationalists say there is only one means of salvation: that which comes through faith in Christ
As well they should.

There is only one means of salvation and that is being found in Christ having been justified before the judgment of God through the once for all vicarious sacrifice on your behalf at Calvary.
... but when the logical consequences of the two-part dispensational system that asserts one plan for Israel and another for the church is considered it results in a different means of salvation for the Jew than for everyone else.
No it does not. I have outlined exactly why that is a straw man.

Briefly illustrated - the "path of salvation" for the likes of Able, Enoch, Moses, Samson and Samuel (for instance), did not include an understanding of the work of Christ at Calvary as it does for the church.
But saying that does not equate to saying that there was a different "means" of salvation for them than for you and me - only that there was a different "path".

To reiterated - the application of Christ's work at Calvary to their life on earth is their only way to being justified before God and entering His presence. Their "means" of justification is the same as for you and for me I in the N.T. church thousands of years later. But what is required in the exhibition of saving faith is quite different them than for you and me and the Phillippian jailer (and even for the thief on the cross for that matter).
.... Israel must go through the tribulation and before that happens they must be reconstituted as a geo-political nation-state and that nation-state will necessarily begin practicing the OT Law again, including the re-institution of animal sacrifices. That is in fact what Dispensationalism teaches will happen.
Absolutely this is the teaching of Dispensationalism.

By the way - it is just as everyone knows from the scriptures was what God ordained for the state of Israel before the justifying work of Christ at Calvary.

Believing that about God's decrees hardly equates to you and I teaching a different mean of salvation than the one taught by evangelical Christians in general. The same is true for the teachers of Dispensationalism.
All of that is works. AND it is pre-faith in Christ works. They won't come to faith in Christ before such events according to DPism.
Of course it is - just as it was for Abraham.

But, unlike in the case of Abraham or Enoch for instance, no Dispensationalist teaches that the fullness of Israel will come to faith in Christ before the time of Jacob's trouble has come upon the earth and they understand what the good news that the Messiah has already come and done His justifying work through His life, death and resurrection.
So while Dispensationalists say there is only one means of salvation the logically necessary conclusion of their theology proves otherwise. And this problem has been brought to their attention repeatedly and they deny it.
As well they should deny it. It is a straw man on your part.

They do do not believe or teach that there is any way of being justified before God other than the vicarious work of Christ on the behalf of all such saved individuals.

Nor, by the way, do they generally teach that salvation will come to the Jews in these later days without a personal understanding and faith in what Jesus did at Calvary.

That is, by the way quite, unlike what you have likely been taught about the cases of the O.T. Saints who taught about God's ways without a complete understanding of what was to happen in the future concerning Christ as His work and or explaining it all to the elect of God wherever they encountered them.

You are hopefully aware of and agree that the likes of Enoch, Abraham, or Moses did not understand the complete gospel and yet were saved by Christ's work.

Dispensationalists merely say that there will be a reconstituting of the temple experience - that will be shown to Israel in general through the things that happen to that nation in the Tribulation or time of Jacob's trouble - to be all in vain.

Then they will understand Whom they as a nation have pierced and turn to Him in a completely understood way.

Again - that is a much more complete picture of salvation than the like of Abraham or Moses ever understood as most of us agree on.

And yet, in spite of the fact that most teach that there will be a more complete understanding of Christ's work for the later day Israel than you know was true for Moses and Abraham - you choose to rail against them with straw men arguments.

No one has any trouble with people disagreeing about escapology with others in the Church. But one should present their differences from the scriptures and not do so by misrepresenting what their brothers and sisters in Christ believe.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I have checked into that theory in the past and ended up concluding, no it isn't in Esther. The contexts are not even remotely the same.
I guess it depends on the lens we use to interpret scripture. It is certainly an important and notable historical account which in turn became the Jewish holiday of Purim. This fits well in the timeline and does not force us into a future battle that has not yet occurred.
Blessings
 
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Skidder

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I don’t have a problem with the term "rapture" that is often used to describe the church being “caught up” to meet the Lord in the air. The word makes perfect sense, but I believe a more accurate and fitting description is the one that is often overlooked and occurs several times in the scriptures… REDEMPTION.

Luke 21:28 --When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your REDEMPTION is drawing near." Ephesians 1:14 “Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the REDEMPTION of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 4:30 "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the DAY OF REDEMPTION." Romans 8:23 "Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as WE WAIT EAGERLY for our adoption to sonship, the REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES."

Wrath has to with sin, and where there is no law there is no transgression. Christians will be spared the great tribulation because this is God's wrath against sin, and since Jesus took that wrath we are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

The redemption of the church through the Lord Jesus Christ is an event most Christians long to see. The bible says that no one knows the day nor the hour, but to always be watching and waiting as if everyday were the last. Like a "thief in the night", and in the "twinkling of the eye" the church will be gathered up to Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Matthew 24:36-42
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

This is going to be a huge event. When the restrainer of the lawless one is taken out, and then the lawless one will be revealed in his own time...

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

There is only ONE with power to hold back Satan from revealing the lawless one... THE HOLY SPIRIT who has sealed the church. And because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit we cannot be unsealed. If that were the case, Christ would have to be "uncrucified". No! The Church is the body of Christ and if the Holy Spirit (restrainer) goes, so goes the church!

We must be on our guard and know the difference between "the Day of Redemption", and Christ coming to earth. We are not unaware of the schemes of the evil one; he is always ready to counter-strike God's word with a counterfeit explanation of events...

The new age movement has been growing in popularity over the years, and one of their lead authors has manufactured an explanation to the disappearance of so many Christians . From the book "Bringers of the Dawn" by Barbara Marciniak we read this.... "The people who leave the planet during the time of Earth changes do not fit in here any longer, and they are stopping the harmony of Earth. When the time comes that perhaps 20 million people leave the planet at one time there will be a tremendous shift in consciousness for those who are remaining."

When the "times of the gentiles" has come to fulfillment all eyes will return to Israel, and there will be a "great tribulation" like the world has never seen before. Let us be like the watchman who sound the alarm of the coming of the Lord. Israel is a nation again, the fig tree is budding, and the birth pangs are becoming more frequent every day. Let us not just sit, but STAND in the grace that has been allotted to us; proclaiming the wonderful news of the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ!! Luke 21:28 --When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your REDEMPTION is drawing near."

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The epicenter of the world (temple mount) in Jerusalem is being trampled on by the Muslims. The Jerusalem Islamic Waqf are in control of the temple mount and the Jews and Christian are not allowed to pray anywhere on the premises. They are frequently run off by violent mobs of Muslims screaming "allahu akbar". This "trampling" has been going on since 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed the temple and put a stop to the sacrifices. For nearly 2000 years the Holiest place on earth has been trampled on by the gentiles. But those who know what happened on Calvary, also know that the blood of Christ will not contend with animal sacrifices. The scriptures are clear that the sacrifices will return after the the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. One has to end before the other begins. And this my friends is the glorious REDEMPTION of the church!!!

Grace and Peace....
 
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DennisTate

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It appears as though you are looking within which is 100% biblical. Rom. 12:1-2 Good stuff. Remember to be confident of this one thing, that He who has already begun a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.


Thank you.... these last two years have been extraordinary in so many ways.

I try to be very open about what I am being shown about the darkness within myself in hopes that perhaps by my admitting what I am seeing within myself that I do not like at all this may make it easier for other Christians to make that jump themselves as well.

2018 outpouring, are you feeling it? I am!

At my wife's Pentecostal church this Sunday.... .which was also Pentecost......
a "Fire Tunnel" / blessing tunnel was done.......... and the outpouring was amazing......

I haven't seen anything even remotely like it in about a decade.

Day before yesterday, Monday, was even more powerful in many ways and all I could do for more than one hour........was go for walks and pray...... I am beginning this discussion because I believe that some of you will feel this and i think I know how to assist you to go through this.......... in the easiest way possible.

The key to making this as easy as possible ..... is HUMILITY!




Isaiah 2:11

"The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:"
.....

Isaiah 2:17

"And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

I have been feeling tremendous conviction over my own pride.......
I may seem somewhat humble to you.... because I really try to be polite.......
but politeness is not HUMILITY......
and G-d will not dwell with people who are not sincerely and genuinely humble.......


Isaiah 57:15

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."



 
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Josheb

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Hi no they do not have to do a bunch of other stuff to get saved just believe....
Then it is not necessary for the nation of Israel to be re-constituted and the current nation named Israe - that modern nation that bears no resemblance to the theocratic monarchy of the Old Testament - is NOT a fulfillment of prophesy.

If they do not have to do a bunch of stuff then DPism's claim they'll return to the law of Moses isn't necessary to understanding prophesy. All those interpretations are unnecessary. The creation of a different path to the blood of Christ is unnecessary! Enduring the tribulation becomes unnecessary. The tribulation itself becomes unnecessary.

In other words, not only does DP assert an unnecessary second path to salvation for Jews but..... it has a God who prophesies unnecessary events! And that is another compromise on core Christian doctrine. It has a God who let's His creation spiral into depravity so severe the church, the ekklesia - those who were charged with making disciples of all the nations - can't be effective and needs rescuing while God waits for His unnecessary plan to happen.

That is not the God of the Bible, Brian. Look at the logical consequences of Dispensational Premillennial positions. They lead to conclusions contrary to whole scripture and long-held Christian doctrine.
 
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Josheb

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As well they should.

There is only one means of salvation and that is being found in Christ having been justified before the judgment of God through the once for all vicarious sacrifice on your behalf at Calvary.
No it does not. I have outlined exactly why that is a straw man.

Briefly illustrated - the "path of salvation" for the likes of Able, Enoch, Moses, Samson and Samuel (for instance), did not include an understanding of the work of Christ at Calvary as it does for the church.

That's rubbish. That's what DPism taught you but that is not scripture. Hence the problem.

Psalm 110:1
"The LORD said to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Those God enlightened did understand how an ancestor could call a descendant, "Lord." The Saduccees and Pharisees and Jewish leaders of Jesus' day didn't but those listed throughout Hebrews 11 did.
But saying that does not equate to saying that there was a different "means" of salvation for them than for you and me - only that there was a different "path".
Yes, it does. It is a works-before-faith salvation not a faith-that-begets-works-salvation. The different path makes it a different salvation and you just went on record acknowledging it is a different path. Not only is it a different path, but it's a works path; they have to work their way to faith before they can be saved.


You must think about what the logic of DPism leads to, His student. By saying the Gentiles can simply come to Christ but the Jews of bloodline Israel mus take another path Dispensationalism is unwittingly asserting a second soteriology than the one the church has asserted for centuries. John Darby showed up and changed all that.



And as to the Wiki article, when I have the time I'll gladly get my books down from my library and quote Chafer, Ryrie, Pentecost and the rest to show you what DPism teaches.
 
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faroukfarouk

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That's rubbish. That's what DPism taught you but that is not scripture. Hence the problem.

Psalm 110:1
"The LORD said to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Those God enlightened did understand how an ancestor could call a descendant, "Lord." The Saduccees and Pharisees and Jewish leaders of Jesus' day didn't but those listed throughout Hebrews 11 did.

Yes, it does. It is a works-before-faith salvation not a faith-that-begets-works-salvation. The different path makes it a different salvation and you just went on record acknowledging it is a different path. Not only is it a different path, but it's a works path; they have to work their way to faith before they can be saved.


You must think about what the logic of DPism leads to, His student. By saying the Gentiles can simply come to Christ but the Jews of bloodline Israel mus take another path Dispensationalism is unwittingly asserting a second soteriology than the one the church has asserted for centuries. John Darby showed up and changed all that.



And as to the Wiki article, when I have the time I'll gladly get my books down from my library and quote Chafer, Ryrie, Pentecost and the rest to show you what DPism teaches.
The many dispensationalists I know actually preach the same Gospel to Gentile and Jew alike.
 
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DennisTate

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Then it is not necessary for the nation of Israel to be re-constituted and the current nation named Israe - that modern nation that bears no resemblance to the theocratic monarchy of the Old Testament - is NOT a fulfillment of prophesy.

If they do not have to do a bunch of stuff then DPism's claim they'll return to the law of Moses isn't necessary to understanding prophesy. All those interpretations are unnecessary. The creation of a different path to the blood of Christ is unnecessary! Enduring the tribulation becomes unnecessary. The tribulation itself becomes unnecessary.

In other words, not only does DP assert an unnecessary second path to salvation for Jews but..... it has a God who prophesies unnecessary events! And that is another compromise on core Christian doctrine. It has a God who let's His creation spiral into depravity so severe the church, the ekklesia - those who were charged with making disciples of all the nations - can't be effective and needs rescuing while God waits for His unnecessary plan to happen.

That is not the God of the Bible, Brian. Look at the logical consequences of Dispensational Premillennial positions. They lead to conclusions contrary to whole scripture and long-held Christian doctrine.


I personally am of the belief that I should support the Jewish people in their desire to rebuild their Jerusalem Third Temple and / or an Ezekiel Temple complex because I think that certain events need to happen previous to the full fledged Zechariah 14

Is a Jerusalem Third Temple needed before Zechariah 14 can happen?

Here are a couple of quotations that back up why I think this way.
"Some Christian commentators have suggested that the Antichrist will lead the project to rebuild the Temple. However, the evidence from Scripture causes me to take quite a different view. While numerous prophecies describe the Antichrist defiling the Temple, John refers to the sanctuary as the Temple of God. "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein" (Revelation 11:1). In addition, when the apostle Paul wrote about the Antichrist being revealed, he referred to evil acts that would be carried out in "the temple of God" (see 2 Thessalonians 2:4). These passages strongly suggest that the Jews in genuine worship of God will build the Third Temple and that the Antichrist will later defile it during the Tribulation. Fortunately, the Word of God reveals that when the Messiah comes, "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (Daniel 8:14).

One of the greatest of the early church writers, Irenaeus, taught that the new Temple would be a genuine Temple built by the religious Jews. Citing 2 Thessalonians 2:4, he stated that "the Apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God."

Further, in his book Against Heresies, Irenaeus affirmed his understanding of the Scriptures' prophecies about animal sacrifices being reinstated in a future Temple. He cited Daniel's words in Daniel 9:27, stating, "the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation (shall) be brought in the Temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete." Again, for these prophetic events to occur, the Third Temple must be rebuilt by the Jews as a legitimate Temple of God" (Grant R. Jeffrey, The New Temple and the Second Coming, pages 19, 20)

"The Sacrificial System Will Continue

One of the most perplexing ideas to students of Scripture is the idea that God intends that the annual feasts, along with animal sacrifice, will continue into the Millennium. Many Christians who have studied the prophetic portions of Zechariah 14, Isaiah 66, and Ezekiel 40 - 48, which clearly describe these Millennial worship ordinations, are confused by the idea. They ask, "Didn't the sacrifice of Christ eliminate animal sacrifices forever?"

............"Only the complete sacrifice of Jesus could ever totally atone for our sins. However, God clearly demanded the sacrifices from Adam to Christ. Those sacrifices were acts of obedience to the direct command of God, as well as acknowledgements of one's own personal sinfulness and need for God's forgiveness. Animal sacrifices covered the sins of the people temporarily until the prophesied Messiah would come and offer Himself once and for all as the necessary atonement for sin. If animal sacrifice can never atone for sin, why would God allow Israel to resume such sacrifice in the Third Temple, prior to Armageddon, and then demand that Israel continue such sacrifice in the Millennium? There are two reasons why I believe this is true."

First, the early Jewish - Christian Church continued to offer sacrifices in the first century.".......



.......Second, New Testament writers used the legal sacrificial system to illustrate very important points concerning Christ's sacrifice on the Cross.......

..... These examples of the way early Jewish believers used God's law to teach great love when He sacrificed His only Son on the cross will be repeated during the Millennium." (Grant R. Jeffrey, Messiah, War in the Middle East and the Road to Armageddon, page 317, 318 and 319)
 
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charsan

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I don't even know what this term fully means but I can make an educated guess and I am fairly certain that I am NOT a Dispensational Premillennialist..... but I could be incorrect?

My belief is that there is hidden potential positive meaning in the scariest of scriptures and therefore I believe that the time from the Rapture, (assuming that there will be a Rapture of some valid sort).... to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14
could be merely hours or days or at most perhaps only three and a half years?

I would say a bit since you believe in the false idea of a rapture
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Then it is not necessary for the nation of Israel to be re-constituted and the current nation named Israe - that modern nation that bears no resemblance to the theocratic monarchy of the Old Testament - is NOT a fulfillment of prophesy.

If they do not have to do a bunch of stuff then DPism's claim they'll return to the law of Moses isn't necessary to understanding prophesy. All those interpretations are unnecessary. The creation of a different path to the blood of Christ is unnecessary! Enduring the tribulation becomes unnecessary. The tribulation itself becomes unnecessary.

In other words, not only does DP assert an unnecessary second path to salvation for Jews but..... it has a God who prophesies unnecessary events! And that is another compromise on core Christian doctrine. It has a God who let's His creation spiral into depravity so severe the church, the ekklesia - those who were charged with making disciples of all the nations - can't be effective and needs rescuing while God waits for His unnecessary plan to happen.

That is not the God of the Bible, Brian. Look at the logical consequences of Dispensational Premillennial positions. They lead to conclusions contrary to whole scripture and long-held Christian doctrine.
I would argue that prophecy is very progressive and we are still waiting for the 1st prophecy in the Bible to be finished which is that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. We still see the enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. Satan tempted Jesus and offered Him all the kingdoms of the world at a time if Jesus would bow down to him. These kingdoms are still under Satanic control and a look at the history of man certainly does not support Jesus ruling with a rod of iron right now. I agree that spiritual Israel is a real thing but disagree that all those loose ends will not be tied up with exactness just like the prophecies for the 1st coming.
You have been reluctant to look at the scriptures such as Zech 14 which show the LORD is not declared king over all the earth until the day He fights and His feet stand on the Mt of Olives. This is a straight forward interpretation of the text. Jesus pointed to the abomination of desolation as a future event. You make take the historical perspective but the next temple is coming at a time when a covenant will be made between Israel and the many. If you look at 70 AD and try to link it to Zech 14 the LORD saves Jerusalem in that day. Which is exactly what is going on in Dan 7 when the kingdom that comes that will last forever is given to the son of man. In both instances Jerusalem is saved at the coming of the LORD. God gave prophecy so we would know that God is outside of time and things like Jer 31 where God knowing all about 70 AD coming in the future ads right after the new covenant in announced that He will not cast off Israel as a nation for all they have done. Then right after that He notes that Jerusalem will be one day rebuilt and never torn down again and it is declared holy form that point on too and it begins with dead bodies everywhere. How do you reconcile that? The next temple is going to be the one for the Abomination of desolation. The man of sin is revealed in the temple with lying signs and wonders and many will believe him. This is the point where the beast gains control over the world for 42 months which is the exact same amount of time the pompous one in Dan 7 has to persecute the saints. Rev warns not to ad or take away from the text and if it is future would you be guilty of that?

The NWO is Satanic and organized if you have never investigated this it might challenge your idea that Satan is bound now and we are in the kingdom age. The all seeing eye in the cap stone of the pyramid is a good place to start looking. This is a bit like Noah's day where the ark is being built in plain sight and people did not get that it was going to be a flood. These are as the days of Noah and the message for all points of view is to be ready and serving the LORD.
 
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