Dispensational Premillennialism????

Would you define me as a Dispensational Premillennialist?

  • No

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I think you have some aspects of this belief pattern.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I think that you have many aspects of Dispensational Premillennialism.

    Votes: 1 50.0%

  • Total voters
    2

DennisTate

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I don't even know what this term fully means but I can make an educated guess and I am fairly certain that I am NOT a Dispensational Premillennialist..... but I could be incorrect?

My belief is that there is hidden potential positive meaning in the scariest of scriptures and therefore I believe that the time from the Rapture, (assuming that there will be a Rapture of some valid sort).... to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14
could be merely hours or days or at most perhaps only three and a half years?

I think we should be much more concerned about God permitting satan's influence in the body of Christ. Dispensational Premillennialism, for example, is a wretched set of doctrines that bear little support in scripture and since its inception in the mid-1800s it has divided the body greatly. Think not? Watch the responses this post gets.

It compromises long-held and well-established core doctrines of the church.
It causes its adherents to live divided and hypocritical lives.
It asserts a hermeneutic none actually practice.
It has repeatedly fostered false prognosticators and continues to do so.
It does not hold those proven to teach falsely accountable.
No other mainstream theology generates such misconduct in frequency or severity.​

And while the above is off-topic from the op, 1) it is related to the inquiries "What if satan..." and 2) I'm happy to defend the above in the proper board.
 

Maria Billingsley

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I don't even know what this term fully means but I can make an educated guess and I am fairly certain that I am NOT a Dispensational Premillennialist..... but I could be incorrect?

My belief is that there is hidden potential positive meaning in the scariest of scriptures and therefore I believe that the time from the Rapture, (assuming that there will be a Rapture of some valid sort).... to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14
could be merely hours or days or at most perhaps only three and a half years?
Do you believe in a secret rapture? This is only for the "Church". This is where those who are not Christian are "left behind". Do you believe the geopolitical state of Israel will build a third temple in order to usher in the "anti-Christ"? Do you read the Scofield Bible? Do you believe God has a different plan of salvation for the Jews in other words, the Old Testament promises have not been fulfilled? Do you believe Revelation is literal? Do you believe there are Old Testament prophesies that have not been fulfilled in Christ? Do you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ? There are more distinctive's but this is a good start.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Do you believe in a secret rapture? This is only for the "Church". This is where those who are not Christian are "left behind". Do you believe the geopolitical state of Israel will build a third temple in order to usher in the "anti-Christ"? Do you read the Scofield Bible? Do you believe God has a different plan of salvation for the Jews, in other words, the Old Testament promises have not been fulfilled. Do you believe Revelation is literal? Do you believe there are Old Testament prophesies that have not been fulfilled in Christ? Do you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ? There are more distinctive's but this is a good start.
HI God does not have another plan of salvation for national Israel He has another path. No one in the history of man was ever saved by anything other than the blood of Christ. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. So we know Abraham was declared righteous and died and was still in the earth when Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man in a place of comfort while the rich man was in torment. When Jesus died it says he descended and set the captives free. Jesus liberated by his blood all those who were declared righteous through faith. Now the atonement was paid and they were free and in Rev up in heaven they sing the praises to the Lamb who was worthy to take the scroll and open its seal and they sang this.
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us[fn] kings[fn] and priests to our God;
And we[fn] shall reign on the earth.”

So in dispensational view nation Israel will get the 3rd temple and indeed the abomination of desolation will set off the final 42 months. At the end of the 42 months we see the climax of the days when all the loose ends are tied together. Zech 14 shows the day the LORD comes and the same day He is king is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city goes into captivity. It is a single day where it is dark in the day and bright at night. The LORD comes and fights slaying the enemies of Israel and that is the day they declare the LORD is king over all the earth. Now life is for sure continuing on earth after these events. As the Mt of Olives is to split in two with specific boundaries and the new river will flow year round. Also the nations which are left from that point of will be required to keep the feast of Tabernacles or they will get no rain. Now here is the key verse from Zech 14 about this day. In that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Jesus who has come with the scars and all the same as Rev 5 and Israel is saying the LORD is one which is saying Jesus is LORD. This is Joseph revealing himself to his brothers; it is glorious.
More proof. Here is what is siad the Jesus would accomplish in Luke 1.
9 But when she saw him,[fn] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

The kingdom becomes the kingdom when national Israel is delivered just as promised in Luke and exactly as described in Zech 14. You will see the new heart promised to Israel in Eze 36 and they will no longer be the reproach of the nations. You will see it said to those who were declared not His people you are the sons of the living God.

Lastly in Jer 31 right after the promise of the new covenant God affirms twice that Israel will no longer cease to be a nation before His eyes and notes He will not cast them off for all they have done. Then he ends it saying of Jerusalem ; 8 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”
Now if you look at Zech 14 again it looks like lots of dead bodies and the city will need to be rebuilt. It is now not going to be torn down again from the day described in Zech 14. Note it is now holy and the transformation of Israel in to being a born again nation has been achieved. This time line does not depend on the rapture but for sure there will be a 7 year tribulation followed by the 1000 reign the prophecies are very clear.
 
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DennisTate

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Do you believe in a secret rapture? This is only for the "Church". This is where those who are not Christian are "left behind". Do you believe the geopolitical state of Israel will build a third temple in order to usher in the "anti-Christ"? Do you read the Scofield Bible? Do you believe God has a different plan of salvation for the Jews in other words, the Old Testament promises have not been fulfilled? Do you believe Revelation is literal? Do you believe there are Old Testament prophesies that have not been fulfilled in Christ? Do you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ? There are more distinctive's but this is a good start.

I personally did not believe in a Rapture until I read the near death experience account of a Dr. Richard Eby and then I began to take the possibility of some sort of Rapture separate from the Second Coming and the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 and 1 Corinthians 15 as a real possibility that I could not rule out????

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!

Dr. Richard Eby, near-deat .com:
"He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you "might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

I can clearly recall how Jesus' voice paused at this moment. He was savoring an anticipation too intense and private to be revealed. Was he pre-living that moment at which he would enjoy the victory which his Father would give him as the eternal reward for his own long-suffering? His own sting of death would be swallowed up, and he would be the omniscient Head of a completed and compliant body for whom he had shed his blood on a terrible cross. He would reign as KING of the Jews after these days of grace. Then his thoughts returned to me.

"My son, when that time has come, my Father will call to me. The applause of the heavenly hosts will be deafening; they too have been awaiting that day, ever since they announced my birth to the shepherds at Bethlehem so long ago. Scoffers will gaze with fear and wonder as my angelic hosts watch me fulfill my promise to my earthly body of believers at my soon return to Earth." (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death .com)

Until I read this I had thought of the verses used to justify the Rapture as probably being about the Seventh Trump of Revelation and Zechariah 14 and the First Resurrection all at the same time.

Now I am no longer certain what to think?????????

I had always assumed a relatively fast Marriage Supper of the Lamb... .but IF the Marriage Supper of the Lamb were to be three and a half years or more in duration.... then that would alter the entire formula????
 
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DavidPT

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My belief is that there is hidden potential positive meaning in the scariest of scriptures and therefore I believe that the time from the Rapture, (assuming that there will be a Rapture of some valid sort).... to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14
could be merely hours or days or at most perhaps only three and a half years?

To the fulfillment of what in Zechariah 14? Some of the things in that chapter are fulfilled prior to the 2nd coming, some things are fulfilled at the 2nd coming, and some things are fulfilled post the 2nd coming. So what in particular are you referring to?

In my view the rapture and 2nd coming are the same thing.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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HI God does not have another plan of salvation for national Israel He has another path.
Path and plan are considered the same- Jesus Christ of Nazareth. "Enter through the narrow gate".
Blessings.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Path and plan are considered the same- Jesus Christ of Nazareth. "Enter through the narrow gate".
Blessings.
I agree and if you read the post the deliverance of the nation and the conversion of the nation have a path that ends in them being born again. Many wrongly say that dispensationalist teach another plan for Israel but it is really another path that brings them to that same new covenant. The key take away is the LORD is not king over the earth until he fights and saves Israel as described and predicted.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I agree and if you read the post the deliverance of the nation and the conversion of the nation have a path that ends in them being born again. Many wrongly say that dispensationalist teach another plan for Israel but it is really another path that brings them to that same new covenant. The key take away is the LORD is not king over the earth until he fights and saves Israel as described and predicted.
What of the millions and millions and millions of Jews who have already passed. Do they get a special "re-do" after they have died in unbelief? I am afraid the answer is no. The path or plan is exactly the same path and plan for everyone regardless of their nationality.
 
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DavidPT

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What of the millions and millions and millions of Jews who have already passed. Do they get a special "re-do" after they have died in unbelief? I am afraid the answer is no. The path or plan is exactly the same path and plan for everyone regardless of their nationality.

Your arguments have merit. But even so, how do we then understand chapters such as Ezekiel 39, for example? Many of us conclude that the events recorded in that chapter are yet to occur. That chapter speaks of a house of Isreal God is hiding His face from until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. It is only after He executes that judgment, that it is then when He no longer hides His face from this particular part of the house of Israel.
 
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DennisTate

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What of the millions and millions and millions of Jews who have already passed. Do they get a special "re-do" after they have died in unbelief? I am afraid the answer is no. The path or plan is exactly the same path and plan for everyone regardless of their nationality.

Or.... could it be as Pastor Ronald L. Dart once stated in one of his sermons that English..... is a legalistic language that has been affected by written legislation and legal cases...... and English evolved over centuries toward being useful to produce the seemingly loophole free sentence or clause. Greek, Hebrew and ARamaic are very, very, very, very different from English...... My point is that the poetic, beautiful and powerful language of the KJV could perhaps leave us with a Messiah Yeshua - Jesus that to our thinking is metaphorically CRUCIFIED/ (nailed down by his own Bible).... and could not make the following judgment as seen by near death experiencer and former Skeptic Howard Storm:

"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. Jesus said to me, "These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."

I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart. The anguish that Jesus was suffering at the slaughter of his people was too much for me to bear and I begged that we leave this place. I will never forget this: his anguish at this horror and what it represents. This was one of the low points in human history."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events." (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)

So.... could Messiah Yeshua - Jesus know that Orthodox Jews or Chassidic Jews are talking about him when they pray for their being sent Moshiach ben Ephrayim / Messiah son of Joseph or Moshiach ben David / Messiah son of David or............
is it true that only the vocalization of the name Jesus or Yeshua will work?????????????

I personally don't know for sure..... I think that that question is above my Security Clearance Level?!


Acts 4:12
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

This sounds to us like a loophole free sentence.... but is the beautiful and poetic English translation perhaps missing some of the original intended meaning??????
 
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thecolorsblend

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I don't even know what this term fully means but I can make an educated guess and I am fairly certain that I am NOT a Dispensational Premillennialist..... but I could be incorrect?

My belief is that there is hidden potential positive meaning in the scariest of scriptures and therefore I believe that the time from the Rapture, (assuming that there will be a Rapture of some valid sort).... to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14
could be merely hours or days or at most perhaps only three and a half years?
I'm a partial-Preterist (otherwise known as orthodox Preterist).

Here's why: http://tektonics.org/eschhub.html
 
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DennisTate

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Your arguments have merit. But even so, how do we then understand chapters such as Ezekiel 39, for example? Many of us conclude that the events recorded in that chapter are yet to occur. That chapter speaks of a house of Isreal God is hiding His face from until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. It is only after He executes that judgment, that it is then when He no longer hides His face from this particular part of the house of Israel.

Now that is a brilliant question and highly relevant for our time period considering the unusual things shown to a then fifteen year old Israel near death experiencer back in 2015. He was shown that some big events were coming for 2022???

The events he saw scared him.... .but I think that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus still uses riddles and darks sayings of the wise to teach us and give himself loopholes that allow Him to work out world events in a vastly more positive manner than we would tend to imagine.

Here is former Atheist Howard Storm describing the world of 2185, (two centuries from his 1985 near death experience) and for the life of me this all reminds me of dozens even hundreds of scriptures in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the minor prophets.

Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

The image of the future that they gave me then, and it was their image, not one that I created, surprised me. My image had previously been sort of like Star Wars, where everything was space age, plastics, and technology.



The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all. What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world.



And when a person became an adult, there was no sense of anxiety, nor hatred, nor competition.



There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect. If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.



What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables.



People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine.



Animals lived with people, in harmony.



People, in this best of all worlds, weren't interested in knowledge; they were interested in wisdom. This was because they were in a position where anything they needed to know, in the knowledge category, they could receive simply through prayer. Everything, to them, was solvable. They could do anything they wanted to do.

Which sure reminds me of:

Isaiah 11
 
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DavidPT

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Now that is a brilliant question and highly relevant for our time period considering the unusual things shown to a then fifteen year old Israel near death experiencer back in 2015. He was shown that some big events were coming for 2022???

The events he saw scared him.... .but I think that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus still uses riddles and darks sayings of the wise to teach us and give himself loopholes that allow Him to work out world events in a vastly more positive manner than we would tend to imagine.

Here is former Atheist Howard Storm describing the world of 2185, (two centuries from his 1985 near death experience) and for the life of me this all reminds me of dozens even hundreds of scriptures in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the minor prophets.

Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience



Which sure reminds me of:

Isaiah 11


You would think though, by 2185, Christ would have already returned. Yet what Howard Storm's alleged experience describes appears to leave Christ out of the picture altogether.
 
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Josheb

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I don't even know what this term fully means...
Wiki will get you started. Here is the Wiki article on Dispensationalism. Here is a link to Theopedia's article describing Dispensationalism and providing links for further exploration, and here is a link to a critique of the model from Monergismdotcom. That site contains others if you use the search feature.


The six concerns I stated are matters typically stated in assertions of or critiques of Dispensational Premillennialism. These are conditions revealed from the consideration of the logically necessary conclusions from DP's common positions and practices. For example, Dispensationalism affirms salvation is through faith in Christ alone but in actuality it requires Jews of the millennial dispensation to 1) be Jews and 2) return to the old laws. Logically this is a works-based doctrine. It is not a faith-alone doctrine. It is a wokrs-before-faith-in-Christ doctrine! In other words, that view contradicts the claim of faith alone or faith in Christ and Spiritual regeneration begetting obedience. This, in turn, is one example of how DPism compromises core Christian doctrines that have stood as such for nearly two millennia. As the conversation unfolds I can and will show how DPism compromises long held theology about the nature of God, long-held Christology, long-held ecclesiology, and not just long-held soteriology.

Everyone is aware that Dispensational Premillennialists have been predicting the return of Christ over the last fifty years and not a single one of those predictions has ever come true. What many don't know is the history of false predictions, time-frame setting and prognostication that has occurred since Darby first asserted DPism in the erly- to mid-1800s. More recently, given the failed prediction of Chuck Smith, John Walvoord (former president of Dallas Theological Seminary), Hal Lindsey, Harold Camping, Edgar Whisenant, John Hagee and others Dispensational Premillennialists have begun to refrain from setting specific dates but they continue to assert more tenuous time frames claiming the world is going to go to hell any day now and we Christians are going to be raptured away. We hear/read this in the messages from the likes of David Jeremiah, Michael Oxentenko, Jack Hibbs and many others who say they believe Jesus is coming back within their lifetime. David Jeremiah is is 78 years old. If he lives to be 80 or 85 or even 90 then Jesus is coming back soon. In all likelihood Jesus will not be coming back in the next two to seven years and Jeremiah will die without being held accountable for teaching falsely.

Let me note at this point that I do not think most of these men are lying. A lie necessarily entails willful deceit. A falsehood does not entail deceit; it is simply an incorrect fact or factual error. I don't think John Walvoord or David Jeremiah intend to deceive anyone but they are definitely teaching falsely.

The consequence of this is that we have a very large section of the body of Christ who genuinely believe what they hear and read but don't actually live in a manner consistent with DP teaching. If a person genuinely believes the world is coming to hell in a handbasket in the next two, five, ten years then there is no sense in taking out a mortgage on a house or saving for your retirement because you re not going to be here to spend that money! Such actions betray the belief and the teaching. It also conflicts with Biblical principles of stewardship: it's not a good use of resources to invest where it will not be used. The DPist should not be saving up wealth but spending o converting as many as they can before they get raptured off the planet. There have been individuals who have endeavored to live this way. Robert Fitzpatrick spent his wealth on advertising to persuade others to prepare for the rapture as Camping predicted only to lose it all.

No other eschatological model causes this kind of unscriptural and irrational behavior.

From its outset DPism has asserted a few core positions, two of which are 1) the church is corrupt, and 2) prophesy should rendered literally. The problems with this second position is that they don't actually read prophesy literally, they read it literalistically, and this can be seen in the response "There will be a literal fulfillment of the prophesy. Well, duh. All eschatological positions believe scripture's prophesys will be fulfilled. We literally all believe that. But we don't believe a third of the literal stars will literally fall from the sky. DPists claim to read scripture literally but they don't do so consistently; they do so selectively.

No other eschatological model causes this kind of unscriptural and irrational behavior.

Perhaps worst of all is the image of God, Christ, and Christianity this presents the world. Hal Lindsay's books in the early 1980s were very popular. Christian and non-Christian read them but in the end the prediction Jesus was coming back by 1988, a generation after the founding of Israel, proved wrong and hundreds of thousands of people relegated what they thought was Christianity to the looney bin.




Dispensational Premillennialism arose in the early and mid-1800s as one of the restoration movements common during that era in history. Others that arose during that time include the CoC, SDAs, the JWs, and the LDS. One of the fundamental tenets was the church had become corrupt and was in need of restoration so they either emphasized NT-era conditions or created new revelation. They all emphasized the apocalypse and did so as a means of promoting imminence and urgency. They also emphasized personal experience over creed. This began a generation earlier with John Wesley, an Anglican minister who did not set out to form a new denomination. In the expanding America there wasn't always an institutional authority to provide orthodoxy or accountability for itinerant circuit preachers riding the west of the country. In Europe, where there were institutional accountability structures, there was uniform resistance. Hence the forming of new sects and denoms. John Darby managed to stay within the pale of orthodoxy because many of his views remained consistent with the church's historical doctrines but his view of eschatology (a rarely used term prior to the 1800s) was radically different. He also believed the church should separate itself from the world entirely and not be involved in politics or social policy but should work to purify itself (based on his view of what the NT church looked like). The Roman Catholic Church was the first and most prominent interpretations of Revelations harlot. It doesn't see to have occurred to the the DPists of that era that much of what they practiced came for the the RCC and was not NT-era doctrine or practice. The NT-era ekklesia did not have one single man responsible for the spiritual growth of all others in a congregation. The NT-era ekklesia did not have stages or lecterns or men wearing special designating garments and backwards collars. The NT-era ekkelsia did not have worship services centered on a sermon. The NT era church did not celebrate December 25th or some of the other holy days of the modern church. These are all subsequent additions to the Christian practice yet the DPers ignored all of that in favor of dividing the body of Christ, judging much of it heretical or apostate while holding on to some of the most non-NT practices.




Now everything I have posted about the doctrines and history can be verified with a little bit of Googling. I encourage all of you, including the DPists, to do just that. I've provided some introductory links to begin the process. I'm happy to discuss any topical op-relevant content, but I will ignore any personally derisive content. Keep the posts about the posts. Note that I haven't specified anything specific about the eschatology of DPism itself. This isn't about whether or not Jesus is returning next year or ten years from now. This is about the logically necessary consequences of such a belief. This is about the logically necessary consequences of a variety of positions DPism asserts so I won't be debating the specific eschatology with anyone. Given the position Dispensational premillennialism, look at what has happened!

No other theological position causes these problems and if and where there are problems they are not as frequent or as severe.

my apologies for the length
 
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Josheb

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Notice what is happening currently.

The means ways of interpreting Zech 14 are being discussed and not the practical consequences of the view expressed in the op relevant to the six concerns I posted. You will spend many posts discussing and debating competing views and neglect the real-life consequences of believing "the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 could be merely hours or days or at most perhaps only three and a half years."

If you really believe that then stop saving for retirement and spend that money any way possible to effect as much conversion as possible in the next three and a half years!

Otherwise, I'm gonna say, "Great. That's what you believe but I don't see you living in a manner consistent with your own belief. I do not see integrity between thought, word, and deed." You can miffed at me for saying so but the emotional responses are not topically, scripturally, or rationally relevant if what I have posted is correct.
 
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DennisTate

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I'm a partial-Preterist (otherwise known as orthodox Preterist).

Here's why: http://tektonics.org/eschhub.html

I am also a partial - Preterist but I only got there in the past few months.

Tektonics.org Bible apologetics and education

What is preterism? If I had to sum up in everyday language, I would define preterism as a belief that some substantial portion of Biblical prophecy now taken to refer to the "End Times" actually was fulfilled by 70 AD, coincident with the destruction of Jerusalem. The core proof point for us is that we take Jesus' warning of things taking place in "this generation" to clearly mean that they must take place within the next 40 years. Such time texts are a cornerstone for the preterist case.

What does this imply in terms of the future for us? It means, the popular understanding of a Rapture, a 7 year Tribulation, and an Antichrist figure are not in our future of necessity. If they are, it will be as a "double fulfillment" but is not necessary to fulfill Biblical prophecy. The chief preterist view holds that all that surely remains in our future is final resurrection and judgment.

I am now of the belief that events of the past can by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to be taken as the final fulfillment of really scary predictions in Revelation and Daniel and Matthew 24
the decision is ultimately totally up to him.......
(I think)?????

I will give you an example......

Near death experiencer Dannion Brinkley in chapter five of his book Saved By The Light saw a variation on a future Mark of the Beast that I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus has the authority to completely and totally reinterpret???

"BOX 12: Technology & Virus

The 11th box was gone & I was into the 12th box. Its visions addressed an important event in the distant future, the decade of the 90's (remember, this was 1975), when many of the great changes would take place. In this box, I watched as a biological engineer from the Middle East found a way to alter DNA & create a biological virus that would be used in the manufacture of computer chips. This discovery allowed for huge strides in science & technology. Japan, China, & other countries of the Pacific Rim experienced boom times as a result of this discovery & became powers of incredible magnitude. Computer chips produced from this process found their way into virtually every form of technology, from cars & airplanes to vacuum cleaners & blenders.

Before the turn of the century, this man was among the richest in the world, so rich that he had a stranglehold on the world economy. Still the world welcomed him, since the computer chips he had designed somehow put the world on an even keel. Gradually, he succumbed to his own power. He began to think of himself as a deity & insisted on greater control of the world. With that extra control, he began to rule the world.

His method of rule was unique. Everyone in the world was mandated by law to have one of his computer chips inserted underneath his or her skin. This chip contained all of an individual's personal information. If a government agency wanted to know something, all it had to do was scan your chip with a special device. By doing so, it could discover everything about you, from where you worked & lived to your medical records & even what kind of illnesses you might get in the future.

There was an even more sinister side to this chip. A person's lifetime could be limited by programming this chip to dissolve & kill him with the viral substance it was made from. Lifetimes were controlled like this to avoid the cost that growing old places on the government. It was also used as a means of eliminating people with chronic illnesses that put a drain on the medical system. People who refused to have chips implanted in their bodies roamed as outcasts. They could not be employed & were denied government services." (Dannion Brinkley, Saved By The Light, chapter 5)

I believe that somebody in the mind set of a modern Hushai the friend of King David who went into the court of King Absolom and defeated the counsel of Ahithophel could........ come up with a plan to utterly and totally render the "Mark of the Beast" into something almost humorous and convince Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to fulfill Zechariah 14
in full in less than five to fifteen years??????????

I didn't say that it would be easy though????

This will help you to understand my thoughts on how the space - time continuum can be varied in any conceivable way that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus judges to be what He really wants to do for His Bride.....

Could the prophet Elijah have altered history if he had NOT........
 
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DennisTate

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You would think though, by 2185, Christ would have already returned. Yet what Howard Storm's alleged experience describes appears to leave Christ out of the picture altogether.

That is exactly what I was thinking as well?????

But Messiah Yeshua - Jesus has total freedom to give to Howard Storm only what he really, really, really needed to know........ and like many Special Forces personnel they often do not want to know too much.... in case they get captured.
 
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DennisTate

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HI God does not have another plan of salvation for national Israel He has another path. No one in the history of man was ever saved by anything other than the blood of Christ. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. So we know Abraham was declared righteous and died and was still in the earth when Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man in a place of comfort while the rich man was in torment. When Jesus died it says he descended and set the captives free. Jesus liberated by his blood all those who were declared righteous through faith. Now the atonement was paid and they were free and in Rev up in heaven they sing the praises to the Lamb who was worthy to take the scroll and open its seal and they sang this.
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us[fn] kings[fn] and priests to our God;
And we[fn] shall reign on the earth.”

So in dispensational view nation Israel will get the 3rd temple and indeed the abomination of desolation will set off the final 42 months. At the end of the 42 months we see the climax of the days when all the loose ends are tied together. Zech 14 shows the day the LORD comes and the same day He is king is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city goes into captivity. It is a single day where it is dark in the day and bright at night. The LORD comes and fights slaying the enemies of Israel and that is the day they declare the LORD is king over all the earth. Now life is for sure continuing on earth after these events. As the Mt of Olives is to split in two with specific boundaries and the new river will flow year round. Also the nations which are left from that point of will be required to keep the feast of Tabernacles or they will get no rain. Now here is the key verse from Zech 14 about this day. In that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Jesus who has come with the scars and all the same as Rev 5 and Israel is saying the LORD is one which is saying Jesus is LORD. This is Joseph revealing himself to his brothers; it is glorious.
More proof. Here is what is siad the Jesus would accomplish in Luke 1.
9 But when she saw him,[fn] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

The kingdom becomes the kingdom when national Israel is delivered just as promised in Luke and exactly as described in Zech 14. You will see the new heart promised to Israel in Eze 36 and they will no longer be the reproach of the nations. You will see it said to those who were declared not His people you are the sons of the living God.

Lastly in Jer 31 right after the promise of the new covenant God affirms twice that Israel will no longer cease to be a nation before His eyes and notes He will not cast them off for all they have done. Then he ends it saying of Jerusalem ; 8 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”
Now if you look at Zech 14 again it looks like lots of dead bodies and the city will need to be rebuilt. It is now not going to be torn down again from the day described in Zech 14. Note it is now holy and the transformation of Israel in to being a born again nation has been achieved. This time line does not depend on the rapture but for sure there will be a 7 year tribulation followed by the 1000 reign the prophecies are very clear.


But.... does Messiah Yeshua - Jesus have the power and the authority to apply His blood to anybody that He chooses to apply His blood to??????

Does Messiah Yeshua - Jesus have the power and the authority to apply His own blood to a Jewish person who He feels has invoked His name through the way that they prayed regarding Moshiach ben Ephrayim or Moshiach ben David or Moshiach / Messiah????

I believe that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus does not have to have the approval of the board of directors of any Christian denomination to apply His blood to anybody that He wants to apply it to... thus the very real possibility of what Howard Storm was shown happening behind the scenes at The Holocaust of the WWII era as I quoted in post number ten here on this page.
 
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DennisTate

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To the fulfillment of what in Zechariah 14? Some of the things in that chapter are fulfilled prior to the 2nd coming, some things are fulfilled at the 2nd coming, and some things are fulfilled post the 2nd coming. So what in particular are you referring to?

In my view the rapture and 2nd coming are the same thing.

I assumed for most of my life that the earthquake of Zechariah 14
was a literal earthquake that would divide Jerusalem.... but I am no longer so sure?????

Now I am wondering if a political / philosophical / theological earthquake might just do the trick.......

For example..... let's imagine two competing massive film production companies........ that have produced TWO HUNDRED MILLION HORSES..... necessary for the fulfillment of two hundred million horsemen from the 'east"... .riding on horses..........

and let's imagine a treaty / film production contract where half of the city of Jerusalem is leased or rented by one company.... and the other half of Jerusalem is rented or leased by the second company...........

Let's imagine sincere Christians from seventy nations coming to the nation of Israel for the filming of this project and they are calling on the nation of Israel to build at least one if not even two valid Jewish Temples..... perhaps one on the Temple Mount and perhaps one outside Jerusalem in the centre of a proposed Ezekiel 40 to Ezekiel 48 temple complex..... so that Ezekiel 47 can be fulfilled so that rain in due season can be restored to Israel and to some surrounding nations that will permit Jews and Noahides and Proselytes to Judaism to attend the Festival of Tabernacles / Sukkot?

Let's imagine that....... (Oh boy.... maybe I should go and pray about this and leave you with ) :

Grant R. Jeffrey on a Jerusalem Third Temple.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Path and plan are considered the same- Jesus Christ of Nazareth. "Enter through the narrow gate".
Blessings.
you seem to be missing my point. The plan of salvation is Jesus Christ and the path Israel goes through until they see that He is God and is the savior is one that is future and the end game God has specifically given us the timeline of what will happen. God in the psalms knew that the stone rejected by the builders would become the chief stone of the corner. He knew of the destruction coming in 70AD and the regathering of 1948. He knows the day of the 2nd coming and when Israel will believe In Jesus as LORD one plan with a destiny in covering them coming to that realization.
 
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