Dispensational Doctrine before the year 200

[5thKingdom]

Many attempt to discredit Dispensationalism by claiming that the church never taught it before about 1830. Such a claim is ridiculous, because the famous church historian Eusebius, who wrote in the mid fourth century, said that there had been “many” early church writers who held the same opinions as Papias. (“The Church History,” by Eusebius, book 3, chapter 39.) But of all these “many” early writers, only the writings of a few of them have been preserved. Since we know that there were “many” such writers, and we do not know what they wrote, then any claim that none of them ever taught any particular doctrine is pure nonsense.

But in addition to the foolishness of making claims about what these lost writings did or did not say, we also find clear statements about differences of opinion in the oldest Christian comments on Bible prophecy that were preserved. The oldest of these was the Epistle of Barnabas. Some scholars assign this epistle a date as early as 100, but others point to internal evidence that it could not have been written before about 130. In this epistle we read:

“Ye ought therefore to understand. And this also I further beg of you, as being one of you, and loving you both individually and collectively more than my own soul, to take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins, and saying, “The covenant is both theirs and ours.” But they thus finally lost it, after Moses had already received it. For the Scripture saith, “And Moses was fasting in the mount forty days and forty nights, and received the covenant from the Lord, tables of stone written with the finger of the hand of the Lord;” but turning away to idols, they lost it.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter IV)

The next oldest statement we have about such differences of opinion concerning Bible prophecy was made by Justin, who is called Justin Martyr because he was martyred. Chapter eighty of his “Dialogue With Trypho,” which is believed to date from about the year 170, begins as follows:

“And Trypho to this replied, ‘I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? Or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?’
“Then I answered, ‘I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.’” (Dialogue with Tyrpho, by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXX.)

The next oldest of the Christian comments we have that reveal disagreement on Bible prophecy were made by Irenaeus, and are thought to have been written sometime between the years 186 and 188. Chapter thirty of the fifth book of his famous work called “Against Heresies” begins as follows:

"Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end),—I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against." (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 1.)

Again, chapter thirty-five of this same work begins:

“If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question].” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1.)

Irenaeus did not explicitly state that some in his day were actually attempting to allegorize these prophecies, but the very form of this statement would make no sense if such doctrine was not being taught. Indeed, we see the essence of the doctrine of Irenaeus was denouncing last part of the conclusion to the first part of the Epistle of Barnanas, which is, “For if I should write to you about things future, ye would not understand, because such knowledge is hid in parables. These things then are so.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter XVII)

When taken together, these statements conclusively prove that even by the time of the writing of these documents, which are the very oldest Christian comments on Bible prophecy that have been preserved, there was no agreement between Christians on such major points as whether the covenant belonged to the Church alone, or to both the Church and Israel, whether or not Jerusalem would be literally restored, whether Bible prophecy should be interpreted literally or allegorically, and even what was the correct text of the Revelation.

But because they are completely ignorant of all this, many Preterists, many Amillennialists, many Covenant Theologians, and many who hold the doctrine of the post tribulation rapture claim that the church never taught any view except their own during its first millennium and a half or more. All such claims are inappropriate and vain, for the only thing that is significant is what the Bible itself says. But in addition to their being unprofitable and vain, all of these claims are completely incorrect.

As we consider these documents, we need to remember that none of them is primarily about Bible prophecy, although they discuss it. The point of the Epistle of Barnabas was to oppose Judaizing teachers in the church. Justin’s point in his “Dialogue With Trypho” was to evangelize Jews. And Irenaeus was demonstrating the errors of Gnostacism. So none of these documents contains anything even resembling a full treatment of Bible prophecy.

But before we begin this examination, let it be perfectly clear that we consider it wholly unacceptable to attribute any authority whatsoever to these documents, other than their historical value. It is serious bad doctrine to claim that the writings of any man, or of any group of men, are authoritative. Our only true and proper authority is the word of God itself, the Bible.

---------------------------------------------------


History clearly shows the church struggled with some of the most basic of doctrines for several hundreds of years.
More than that, from the practical standpoint of today, the Bible was very clear that key information (like Daniel's "Abomination")
would remain "sealed" from all Saints until the "end-of-time" [Dan 12:8-10]... which can be shown to be the "Season and Time"
on earth AFTER the Fourth Kingdom is destroyed [Dan 7:11-12].

From a practical standpoint we can understand why details about the Anti-Christ (the "Little Horn" or "False Prophet")
would not be "unsealed" to the Saints until AFTER the reign of the Anti-Christ, after destruction of the Fourth Kingdom.
Otherwise the Saints would not have allowed themselves to by "overcome" by the Anti-Christ. The Bible says that he
"acquired the Kingdom with flatteries" and he gained power through his the ability to "understand dark sentences".

We now know the "dispensations" on the world were pretty obvious:

The first "Kingdom of Heaven" was the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom consisting of all the Saints from Adam to Noah.
When this Kingdom was finished all living Saints were "harvested" (on Noah's Ark) into the Second Kingdom.
The (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" contained all the Saints in the Kingdom of Israel... and it had a different
Gospel than the previous Kingdom. When the Jewish Kingdom was complete all living Saints were "harvested"
into the Third "Kingdom of Heaven" when they followed the Lord Jesus and His disciples into the Christian Kingdom.

Again we see the Gospel of the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" was DIFFERENT than the previous Kingdom.
The Bible says the Christian Gospel contained "new treasure" in addition to the "old treasure" of the Old Testament.
In fact, we will see, each "Kingdom of Heaven" has it's own unique Gospel which adds "new treasure" to the previous.

At the end of the Great Commission, when all the "sheep have been saved" and all the Saints have been "sealed",
all living Saints are "harvested" into the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]. We know this
passage is NOT talking about the New Testament Kingdom because (a) the context of the passage is in the middle
of THE most recognized passages about the Great Tribulation and (more importantly) because (b) the verse 25:7-9
does not allow the possibility of it occurring during the Great Commission.


Mat 25:1 THEN [the beginning of the Great Tribulation] shall the Kingdom of Heaven [the "wheat" and the "tares"]
be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS [all the Believers], which took their lamps [took their Gospels],
and went forth [from the 3rd Beast - into the 4th Beast] to meet the Bridegroom [to meet the Lord Jesus].


We now know the Great Tribulation was NOT some part (the ending) of the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven". Instead, it was
a separate-and-distinct (fourth) "Kingdom of Heaven" which was represented by (a) Daniel's Fourth Beast and shown as
(b) the Revelations Beast (c) the Great Tribulation Kingdom (d) the Reign of the Anti-Christ during (e) Satan's "Little Season".

In other words (pay attention, this is important), that means the PEOPLE living in Daniel's Fourth Beast are the SAME PEOPLE
who are living during the Revelation Beast.... and the SAME PEOPLE living during the Great Tribulation and the SAME PEOPLE
living during the Reign of the Antic-Christ and the SAME PEOPLE living during Satan's "Little Season".

We now know this because Daniel's prophecies have been "unsealed" to the Last Saints.... as the Bible PROMISED would happen
during the "Season and Time".

For the first time in history, we now know the NAME of each of Daniel's Kingdoms, we know the NAME of the "Little Horn",
we know the NAMES of the ten "horns/kings" and we understand about the "Season and Time" on earth AFTER the Fourth Beast.

However (to bring this back to the issue of the thread) it was ALWAYS part of God's Plan for these details about the FULFILLMENT
of Great Tribulation events to remain "sealed" until this "Season and Time" and that is why the churches have not pursued eschatology
.... because the KEY was to remain "sealed" (from all Saints) until the "Season and Time".

The church was CONFLATING the end of the Third Kingdom with the end of the Fourth Kingdom.
That is why you have pre-mill and post Mill and a-Millennial views. Only ONE can be the Truth (DUH!)
And the KEY to understanding Great Tribulation prophecies (Daniel's prophecies) remained "sealed" to them.


.....

 

[Biblewriter]

---------------------------------------------------


History clearly shows the church struggled with some of the most basic of doctrines for several hundreds of years.
More than that, from the practical standpoint of today, the Bible was very clear that key information (like Daniel's "Abomination")
would remain "sealed" from all Saints until the "end-of-time" [Dan 12:8-10]... which can be shown to be the "Season and Time"
on earth AFTER the Fourth Kingdom is destroyed [Dan 7:11-12].

From a practical standpoint we can understand why details about the Anti-Christ (the "Little Horn" or "False Prophet")
would not be "unsealed" to the Saints until AFTER the reign of the Anti-Christ, after destruction of the Fourth Kingdom.
Otherwise the Saints would not have allowed themselves to by "overcome" by the Anti-Christ. The Bible says that he
"acquired the Kingdom with flatteries" and he gained power through his the ability to "understand dark sentences".

We now know the "dispensations" on the world were pretty obvious:

The first "Kingdom of Heaven" was the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom consisting of all the Saints from Adam to Noah.
When this Kingdom was finished all living Saints were "harvested" (on Noah's Ark) into the Second Kingdom.
The (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" contained all the Saints in the Kingdom of Israel... and it had a different
Gospel than the previous Kingdom. When the Jewish Kingdom was complete all living Saints were "harvested"
into the Third "Kingdom of Heaven" when they followed the Lord Jesus and His disciples into the Christian Kingdom.

Again we see the Gospel of the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" was DIFFERENT than the previous Kingdom.
The Bible says the Christian Gospel contained "new treasure" in addition to the "old treasure" of the Old Testament.
In fact, we will see, each "Kingdom of Heaven" has it's own unique Gospel which adds "new treasure" to the previous.

At the end of the Great Commission, when all the "sheep have been saved" and all the Saints have been "sealed",
all living Saints are "harvested" into the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]. We know this
passage is NOT talking about the New Testament Kingdom because (a) the context of the passage is in the middle
of THE most recognized passages about the Great Tribulation and (more importantly) because (b) the verse 25:7-9
does not allow the possibility of it occurring during the Great Commission.


Mat 25:1 THEN [the beginning of the Great Tribulation] shall the Kingdom of Heaven [the "wheat" and the "tares"]
be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS [all the Believers], which took their lamps [took their Gospels],
and went forth [from the 3rd Beast - into the 4th Beast] to meet the Bridegroom [to meet the Lord Jesus].


We now know the Great Tribulation was NOT some part (the ending) of the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven". Instead, it was
a separate-and-distinct (fourth) "Kingdom of Heaven" which was represented by (a) Daniel's Fourth Beast and shown as
(b) the Revelations Beast (c) the Great Tribulation Kingdom (d) the Reign of the Anti-Christ during (e) Satan's "Little Season".

In other words (pay attention, this is important), that means the PEOPLE living in Daniel's Fourth Beast are the SAME PEOPLE
who are living during the Revelation Beast.... and the SAME PEOPLE living during the Great Tribulation and the SAME PEOPLE
living during the Reign of the Antic-Christ and the SAME PEOPLE living during Satan's "Little Season".

We now know this because Daniel's prophecies have been "unsealed" to the Last Saints.... as the Bible PROMISED would happen
during the "Season and Time".

For the first time in history, we now know the NAME of each of Daniel's Kingdoms, we know the NAME of the "Little Horn",
we know the NAMES of the ten "horns/kings" and we understand about the "Season and Time" on earth AFTER the Fourth Beast.

However (to bring this back to the issue of the thread) it was ALWAYS part of God's Plan for these details about the FULFILLMENT
of Great Tribulation events to remain "sealed" until this "Season and Time" and that is why the churches have not pursued eschatology
.... because the KEY was to remain "sealed" (from all Saints) until the "Season and Time".

The church was CONFLATING the end of the Third Kingdom with the end of the Fourth Kingdom.
And the KEY to understanding Great Tribulation prophecies (Daniel's prophecies) remained "sealed" to them.


.....

As I have already answered this post;s basic premise, I will not answee it again.

 

[5thKingdom]

As I have already answered this post;s basic premise, I will not answee it again.

There was no question for you to answer.
There were several statements of Biblical fact and Historical fact (aka "reality")
but there was no question for you.

 

[5thKingdom]

As I have already answered this post;s basic premise, I will not answee it again.

BTW: I seriously doubt you have "already answered" anything about the "Season and Time" on earth
AFTER the Fourth Kingdom has been given to the "Burning Flame" [Dan 7:11-12]
and/or the "Lake-of-Fire" [Rev 19:20].

I seriously doubt it.


.

 

[Biblewriter]

Somehow, my previous answer to your basic premise disappeared from this thread. for that, I apologize.

What I am referring to is your assertion that Daniel 12:9 means that end time prophecy cannot be understood at the present time. Many other scriptures clearly show that this is incorrect. The most clear statement of this is the ending of the book of Revelation, which states that it was not to be sealed, even as the Book of Daniel was sealed. But the book of Daniel was not sealed forever, but only until "the time of the end." And 1 john 2:18 clearly says that "the last time" had a;ready come in the days of the Apostles.

In addition, the seals on the "little book" were opened in Revelation 6 through 8.

Aside from that, you are simply assuming that you have correctly interpreted various time periods you see as mentioned in scripture, and seem to be totally unaware that these times are not actually taught in scripture as different times. I will not even try to embark on a detailed analysis of the scheme you think you see in scripture. I will only comment that, in the well over fifty years I have devoted to the study of this subject, and my nearly twenty years of debate on it, I have never before encountered a presentation that even approximately resembles what you seem to be advocating.

 

[5thKingdom]

Somehow, my previous answer to your basic premise disappeared from this thread. for that, I apologize.

What I am referring to is your assertion that Daniel 12:9 means that end time prophecy cannot be understood at the present time. Many other scriptures clearly show that this is incorrect. The most clear statement of this is the ending of the book of Revelation, which states that it was not to be sealed, even as the Book of Daniel was sealed. But the book of Daniel was not sealed forever, but only until "the time of the end." And 1 john 2:18 clearly says that "the last time" had a;ready come in the days of the Apostles.

You should not CONFLATE issues.
Yes the Bible says that everything after the Cross is the end-times (or the "last time")
However the Bible contains MUCH information about the time AFTER the Great Commission
And the Bible contains MUCH information about the time called Satan's "Little Season" and
The Bible contains MUCH information about the time AFTER Satan's "Little Season"....
so your argument that the Great Commission is the end falls flat.


I appreciate your response.... but let us TEST your words against Scripture and History.


(1) The Bible clearly claims the truth of Daniel's prophecies remain "sealed" until the "time-of-the-end".
So the FIRST thing to understand is WHEN is this "time-of-the-end"? Is it (a) during the Jewish Kingdom?
No, that is not the "time-of-the-end".... Is it (b) during the Christian Kingdom? No, that is not the time...
Is it during the (c) Great Tribulation? No, that is not the time.... Is it during the "Season and Time" on earth
AFTER the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom? Yes.... that is the "time-of-the-end" for several reasons.


First... it is the period when the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" (that is the "time-of-the-end")
and it is the period when Daniel's prophecies have been "unsealed". You see the HISTORICAL FACT that
Daniel's prophecies have NEVER been understood before the "Season and Time" AFTER the destruction
of the Fourth Kingdom is historical proof that your argument cannot be valid.

Note: It can be shown by ONE VERSE that the "Season and Time" occurs AFTER the destruction of the Last Kingdom.
That is AFTER the Great Commission and AFTER Satan's "Little Season" and AFTER the Revelations Beast.

The FACT is that you cannot harmonize Daniel 7:11-12 into your eschatology...
nor can anyone else. Because you do not teach that some PEOPLE (the "rest of the Beasts")
continue to live on earth for a "Season and Time" after the PEOPLE in the Fourth Beast have
been "cast alive" into the "Lake-of-Fire".

I assume that you are NOT teaching that some PEOPLE exist on earth for a "Season and Time"
AFTER others have been "cast alive" into the "Lake-of-Fire"?


Here is your FIRST PROBLEM:
Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" is an event that occurs during the Great Tribulation (Fourth Beast)
and it is only "seen" by the Saints living in the Great Tribulation. That fact ALONE destroys your theory.


Here is your SECOND PROBLEM:
Daniel 7:11-12 is describing the SAME EVENT as Revelation 19:20... and there is NO WAY that event
occurs until AFTER the destruction of the Fourth Beast/the Revelations Beast...

---------------

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake:
I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away:
yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

----------------

And here is your THIRD PROBLEM:
The Bible contains several passages that shows a period of time on earth AFTER the destruction of the
(4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (aka Daniel's Fourth Beast and the Revelations Beast).... but BEFORE
Satan and the "Kingdoms of Man" are cast into the "Lake-of-Fire" to JOIN THE BEAST.


So.... you are PRETENDING when you say the "time-of-the-end" or the "Season and Time" occurred
BEFORE the end of the Christian Kingdom... or BEFORE the end of the Great Tribulation. The Bible is clear
the "time-of-the-end" and the "Season and Time" do not occur until AFTER the end of the Fourth Beast....
they occur as the Seventh Trumpet "Begins to Sound" [Rev 10:7-11]


BTW... you have other problems with your position (like it does not harmonize with the immediate context
of Daniel 12:8-10 which promises that all the Saints "shall understand".... but NONE of the unsaved can...
History shows that the Saints have NEVER understood Daniel's prophecies (Rome is NOT the Fourth Beast)
because no physical/political Kingdom can fulfill Daniel 7:11-12. And MANY unsaved believe Rome is the answer.
That contradicts BOTH of the criteria contained in the immediate context of Daniel 12:8-10


In order to offer an "informed opinion" on Daniel's "unsealed" prophecies... someone would have to:
(1) NAME each of Daniel's Four Beasts (as shown above they are NOT political Kingdoms)
(2) NAME the person called Daniel's "Little Horn" (aka the "False Prophet")
(3) NAME the people called the "ten horns" and the "ten Kings" in Daniel 7 AND Revelation 17
(4) NAME the EVENT called Daniel's "Abomination" occurring in the Fourth Kingdom/Great Tribulation
(5) EXPLAIN the period called the "Season and Time" on earth after the Fourth Beast/Revelations Beast

You have answered NONE of the PROBLEMS above
and you cannot answer the issues #1-#5 above...

So you cannot offer an "informed opinion" on the matter.
And your uninformed opinion cannot be taken seriously.

(And I am just offering contradictions off the top-of-my-head...
there are many others that REFUTE your theory)



.............

 

[5thKingdom]

In addition, the seals on the "little book" were opened in Revelation 6 through 8.

That is hilarious....

There is no agreement among Christians about the FULFILLMENT of events in Rev 6 through 8.
That REALITY alone destroys your argument. The Bible PROMISES that the Saints "shall understand"
Daniel's "unsealed" mysteries... there is no history confirming the fulfillment of that promise and the Bible
PROMISES that (.... wait for it....) NONE of the unsaved can understand Daniel's "unsealed" prophecies...
and history shows MANY unsaved people preach the same (false) doctrines as the Reformers about
Daniel's prophecies.

So you argument above contradicts both Scripture and History...
Good luck with that.


......

 

[5thKingdom]

I will only comment that, in the well over fifty years I have devoted to the study of this subject, and my nearly twenty years of debate on it, I have never before encountered a presentation that even approximately resembles what you seem to be advocating.

-------

LOL.... that is hilarious.

That is EXACTLY what the Bible PROMISES during the "time-of-the-end" and "Season and Time" on earth
AFTER the destruction of Daniel's Fourth Kingdom.

The Bible PROMISES that the Last Saints "shall understand"... but NONE of the unsaved "tares" can understand. [Dan 12:8-10]
The Bible PROMISES that the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things".... but NONE of the unsaved "tares" can [Mat 24:15,33]

Your argument only confirms that the Bible was correct...
And you use it to argue the exact opposite.
That is funny.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

Somehow, my previous answer to your basic premise disappeared from this thread. for that, I apologize.

Once again Daniel's Four Kingdoms were:
(1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" and
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [so NAMED in Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [so NAMED in Mat 13]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [so NAMED in Mat 25:1]
(5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [so NAMED in Mat 5, 7, 8 and 19]

Moreover... the "ten Horns" and the "ten Kings" of Daniel 7 are the SAME PEOPLE
as the "ten Horns" and the "ten Kings" of Revelation 17.... and the SAME PEOPLE
as the "ten virgins" of Matthew 25... and the SAME PEOPLE as the "ten toes" and
the "ten Kings" of Daniel 2. We KNOW absolutely these are the SAME PEOPLE since,
in each case, they are the people living on earth when the Lord Returns at the sound
of the Seventh Trumpet. This is called "harmony of Scripture" and it is the ONLY measure
of Biblical Truth.

You can argue that these KINGDOMS are NOT really "Kingdoms of Heaven"...
but your fight is with the BIBLE (not with me).

You can argue that the ten "Horns/Kings/Virgins" living in the last Kingdom are NOT the same people...
but your fight is with the BIBLE (not with me).

Good luck with that.


.

 

[Truth7t7]

Many attempt to discredit Dispensationalism by claiming that the church never taught it before about 1830. Such a claim is ridiculous, because the famous church historian Eusebius, who wrote in the mid fourth century, said that there had been “many” early church writers who held the same opinions as Papias. (“The Church History,” by Eusebius, book 3, chapter 39.) But of all these “many” early writers, only the writings of a few of them have been preserved. Since we know that there were “many” such writers, and we do not know what they wrote, then any claim that none of them ever taught any particular doctrine is pure nonsense.

But in addition to the foolishness of making claims about what these lost writings did or did not say, we also find clear statements about differences of opinion in the oldest Christian comments on Bible prophecy that were preserved. The oldest of these was the Epistle of Barnabas. Some scholars assign this epistle a date as early as 100, but others point to internal evidence that it could not have been written before about 130. In this epistle we read:

“Ye ought therefore to understand. And this also I further beg of you, as being one of you, and loving you both individually and collectively more than my own soul, to take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins, and saying, “The covenant is both theirs and ours.” But they thus finally lost it, after Moses had already received it. For the Scripture saith, “And Moses was fasting in the mount forty days and forty nights, and received the covenant from the Lord, tables of stone written with the finger of the hand of the Lord;” but turning away to idols, they lost it.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter IV)

The next oldest statement we have about such differences of opinion concerning Bible prophecy was made by Justin, who is called Justin Martyr because he was martyred. Chapter eighty of his “Dialogue With Trypho,” which is believed to date from about the year 170, begins as follows:

“And Trypho to this replied, ‘I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? Or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?’
“Then I answered, ‘I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.’” (Dialogue with Tyrpho, by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXX.)

The next oldest of the Christian comments we have that reveal disagreement on Bible prophecy were made by Irenaeus, and are thought to have been written sometime between the years 186 and 188. Chapter thirty of the fifth book of his famous work called “Against Heresies” begins as follows:

"Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end),—I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against." (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 1.)

Again, chapter thirty-five of this same work begins:

“If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question].” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1.)

Irenaeus did not explicitly state that some in his day were actually attempting to allegorize these prophecies, but the very form of this statement would make no sense if such doctrine was not being taught. Indeed, we see the essence of the doctrine of Irenaeus was denouncing last part of the conclusion to the first part of the Epistle of Barnanas, which is, “For if I should write to you about things future, ye would not understand, because such knowledge is hid in parables. These things then are so.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter XVII)

When taken together, these statements conclusively prove that even by the time of the writing of these documents, which are the very oldest Christian comments on Bible prophecy that have been preserved, there was no agreement between Christians on such major points as whether the covenant belonged to the Church alone, or to both the Church and Israel, whether or not Jerusalem would be literally restored, whether Bible prophecy should be interpreted literally or allegorically, and even what was the correct text of the Revelation.

But because they are completely ignorant of all this, many Preterists, many Amillennialists, many Covenant Theologians, and many who hold the doctrine of the post tribulation rapture claim that the church never taught any view except their own during its first millennium and a half or more. All such claims are inappropriate and vain, for the only thing that is significant is what the Bible itself says. But in addition to their being unprofitable and vain, all of these claims are completely incorrect.

As we consider these documents, we need to remember that none of them is primarily about Bible prophecy, although they discuss it. The point of the Epistle of Barnabas was to oppose Judaizing teachers in the church. Justin’s point in his “Dialogue With Trypho” was to evangelize Jews. And Irenaeus was demonstrating the errors of Gnostacism. So none of these documents contains anything even resembling a full treatment of Bible prophecy.

But before we begin this examination, let it be perfectly clear that we consider it wholly unacceptable to attribute any authority whatsoever to these documents, other than their historical value. It is serious bad doctrine to claim that the writings of any man, or of any group of men, are authoritative. Our only true and proper authority is the word of God itself, the Bible.

Not one citation you present shows dispensationalism's "Pre-Tribulation" Rapture.

You proclaim the ECFf's taught this?

Citations please?

 

[Biblewriter]

Not one citation you present shows dispensationalism's "Pre-Tribulation" Rapture.

You proclaim the ECFf's taught this?

Citations please?

f you had even bothered to actually read what I posted, this was explicitly cited in post #6.

 

[Truth7t7]

f you had even bothered to actually read what I posted, this was explicitly cited in post #6.

As I stated, you have not cited a ECF teaching a pre-trib rapture.

Post directly this citation in response.

 

[Biblewriter]

As I stated, you have not cited a ECF teaching a pre-trib rapture.

Post directly this citation in response.

I already posted it, and I EXPLICITLY told you where. I WILL NOT post it again, just to satisfy you.

 

[Truth7t7]

I already posted it, and I EXPLICITLY told you where. I WILL NOT post it again, just to satisfy you.

You never posted one citation that shows the ECF'S teaching a pre-trib rapture, not one.

Because there aren't any!

 

[Biblewriter]

You never posted one citation that shows the ECF'S teaching a pre-trib rapture, not one.

Because there aren't any!

If you cannot read, that is your problem.

 

[Truth7t7]

If you cannot read, that is your problem.

I know how to read, but you can't post a citation of your claim?

You never posted one citation that shows the ECF'S teaching a pre-trib rapture, not one.

Because there aren't any!

 

[Biblewriter]

I know how to read, but you can't post a citation of your claim?

You never posted one citation that shows the ECF'S teaching a pre-trib rapture, not one.

Because there aren't any!

I posted them, with explicit citations. And I even told you where I posted them. I am not even going to answer any more of this nonsense.

 

[Truth7t7]

I posted them, with explicit citations. And I even told you where I posted them. I am not even going to answer any more of this nonsense.

You never posted one citation of the ECF'S that shows them teaching a pre-trib rapture, not one!

Because there aren't any!

 

[Truth7t7]

I posted them, with explicit citations. And I even told you where I posted them. I am not even going to answer any more of this nonsense.

Finally found one of your claims the ECF taught a pre-trib rapture below?

Iranaeus clearly states "The Last Contest Is The Tribulation" when the Church goes through this they will overcome and be caught up, just as all Ahmillenialist believe.

No wonder you were hesitant in providing this claim, Iranaeus believed just as I do.

Writer how far will one go, bending and twisting trying desperately to make a square block fit in a round hole?

Biblewriter Posted:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1, From “Ante-Nicean Fathers,” ed. Alexander Roberts, D.D. and James Donaldson, D.D., Edinburgh, 1884.)

 

[Biblewriter]

Finally found one of your claims the ECF taught a pre-trib rapture below?

Iranaeus clearly states "The Last Contest Is The Tribulation" when the Church goes through this they will overcome and be caught up, just as all Ahmillenialist believe.

No wonder you were hesitant in providing this claim, Iranaeus believed just as I do.

Writer how far will one go, bending and twisting trying desperately to make a square block fit in a round hole?

Biblewriter Posted:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1, From “Ante-Nicean Fathers,” ed. Alexander Roberts, D.D. and James Donaldson, D.D., Edinburgh, 1884.)

I was not in the least hesitant. I was simply refusing to yield to your demands that I post again what I had already posted, and even explicitly told you where I posted it. I finally posted it again in a place and way where your cavils would be forbidden. And if you are unable to understand the clear, plain English of my posted, clearly demonstrating why this was actually a pre trib statement, that is your problem.