Disemboweling Oklo

[dad]

The Manhattan Project might be a good example of science in action. Learning how things work, and then using that to kill as many as possible. Life in the fishbowl maybe even improved for some of the fish there as a result of the mass death.

Such noble endeavors take a certain caliber of dedicated men. One of the men involved in this project, and at the highest level, was also involved in Oklo. The US sent their man, George Cowan, to investigate the Oklo phenomena. George Cowan was a founder of Santa Fe institute. An example of the philosophy of this institute, that is presented as science might be found here.

How Life Began | Santa Fe Institute


( godless speculation about a first life form)

I suppose if the Manhattan project had valued life as created, rather than some sick happenstance that could never be proven, whole cities might not have been wiped out.



So, let us look at the claims which have become gospel to science, it seems, in effect.



"Today even the most massive and concentrated uranium deposit cannot become a nuclear reactor, because the
uranium 235 concentration, at less than 1 percent, is just too low.

1 --[so they assume that differences in our earth past state existed..proof????]


"But this isotope
is radioactive and decays about six times
faster than does uranium 238, which indicates
that the fissile fraction was much
higher in the distant past. For example,
two billion years ago (about when the
Oklo deposit formed) uranium 235 must
have constituted approximately 3 percent,


2 ---["Must have"??? Prove it]



The third important ingredient is a
neutron “moderator,” a substance that
can slow the neutrons given off when a
uranium nucleus splits so that they are
more apt to induce other uranium nuclei
to break apart

3 --[so we need water every few hours for millions of years?]

Quotes from this article
http://www.w2agz.com/Library/Nuclear/Nov 2005 OKLA 18513810.pdf

 

[Nostromo]

I suppose if the Manhattan project had valued life as created, rather than some sick happenstance that could never be proven, whole cities might not have been wiped out.

We should all take a leaf out of Joshua's book?

 

[dad]

We should all take a leaf out of Joshua's book?

You should look at what is coming down here, and comment intelligently if you can.

 

[Blayz]

What is the problem? You think they are wrong and that in the unknown-condiiton past the Earth was a giant nuclear reactor anyway, or that it wasn't?

Could you rephrase your main concern/question?

 

[Blayz]

Ooooh, I see now. The Oklo site has experimental evidence that physics 2 billion years ago was the same as physics today, and you hate that.

I understand why you are upset now, no need to clarify.

 

[dad]

What is the problem? You think they are wrong and that in the unknown-condiiton past the Earth was a giant nuclear reactor anyway, or that it wasn't?

Could you rephrase your main concern/question?

I think that claims need to be substantiated. How can you substantiate a claim that the 235 concentration was higher? Then can you prove that water magically appeared on cue for half the life of the planet at that spot??

 

[dad]

Ooooh, I see now. The Oklo site has experimental evidence that physics 2 billion years ago was the same as physics today, and you hate that.

I understand why you are upset now, no need to clarify.

That is the misconception being forever destroyed here.

 

[Blayz]

I think that claims need to be substantiated. How can you substantiate a claim that the 235 concentration was higher? Then can you prove that water magically appeared on cue for half the life of the planet at that spot??

Because it is higher everywhere else that U is found. Has your theory on alternate physics expanded now to suggest that physics in one spot of the earth was different from another spot at the same time?

Honestly dad, up till now I had no idea that evidence existed for uniform physics, and you just provided it. Thanks, but you really have shot yourself in the foot big time.

From the all knowing (and uniform) wikipedia:

The natural reactor of Oklo has been used to check if the atomic fine-structure constant α might have changed over the past 2 billion years. That is because α influences the rate of various nuclear reactions. For example, 149Sm captures a neutron to become 150Sm, and since the rate of neutron capture depends on the value of α, the ratio of the two samarium isotopes in samples from Oklo can be used to calculate the value of α from 2 billion years ago.
Several studies have analysed the relative concentrations of radioactive isotopes left behind at Oklo, and most (but not all) have concluded that nuclear reactions then were much the same as they are today, which implies α was the same too.

 

[dad]

Because it is higher everywhere else that U is found. Has your theory on alternate physics expanded now to suggest that physics in one spot of the earth was different from another spot at the same time?

Will you focus on the claims of Oklo, and forget whatever you think 'my theories' are?


Science claims that 235 "must have" constituted about 3%! Prove it, rookie.

Honestly dad, up till now I had no idea that evidence existed for uniform physics, and you just provided it. Thanks, but you really have shot yourself in the foot big time.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I raised Oklo for a reason, and that is to be shot dead as a concept containing any merit or proof whatsoever.

 

[Blayz]

The wiki article explains it in exquisite detail

Natural nuclear fission reactor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1) The Oklo site has less U235 than any other deposit on the planet. Something must have happened at Oklo to explain this
2) The Oklo site contains distributions of other isotopes which are entirely consistent with U235 fission, not the natural distribution found everywhere else on the planet.

The logical conclusion is that fission happened. The 3% number is neither here nor there.

You have yet to do anything other than attack me and some physics dude...oh, and you also pointed to this excellent evidence of uniformity, so thanks again for that.

 

[dad]

Now, kids, for the disappearing act.

"
Although almost all this
material, which has a 24,000-year halflife,
has since disappeared (primarily
through natural radioactive decay),.." same link

Prove it!!!

 

[dad]

The wiki article explains it in exquisite detail

Natural nuclear fission reactor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1) The Oklo site has less U235 than any other deposit on the planet. Something must have happened at Oklo to explain this

Yes something...whoopee do. What!!!???

2) The Oklo site contains distributions of other isotopes which are entirely consistent with U235 fission, not the natural distribution found everywhere else on the planet.

Misleading. Name them?

The logical conclusion is that fission happened. The 3% number is neither here nor there.

Absurd. It is claimed. That is decidedly here. So you can't prove it. OK. What a lousy claim.

You have yet to do anything other than attack me and some physics dude...oh, and you also pointed to this excellent evidence of uniformity, so thanks again for that.

You better stay tuned kid. This could get good.

 

[Blayz]

Yes something...whoopee do. What!!!???

U235 exists in exactly the same concentration everywhere on the planet except Oklo, Gabon. What is your explanation for this fact?

Misleading. Name them?

How is it misleading? As for names, Neodymium and Ruthenium

Absurd. It is claimed. That is decidedly here. So you can't prove it. OK. What a lousy claim.

It is inferred from the evidence, I guess you could use the word "claim" but that is just semantics.

You better stay tuned kid. This could get good.

Well it will need to get a whole lot better than it has been so far.

How do you explain the drop in U235 and distribution of isotopes in the absence of fission?

 

[dad]

U235 exists in exactly the same concentration everywhere on the planet except Oklo, Gabon. What is your explanation for this fact?

So??? That means "something" happened. The question is what!??

How is it misleading? As for names, Neodymium and Ruthenium

"very likely they pulsed
on and off in some fashion, and large
quantities of water must have been moving
through these rocks—enough to
wash away some of the xenon precursors,
tellurium and iodine, which are
water-soluble. "


You see they wash away any materials that are not there.

It is inferred from the evidence, I guess you could use the word "claim" but that is just semantics.

False. Only if we first assume a same state past and a host of same state miracles is anything inferred.

How do you explain the drop in U235 and distribution of isotopes in the absence of fission?

For there to be a drop, you need to prove there was a certain amount? But here is one question for you


"For example,
measured with respect to the
amount of xenon 132 present, the depletion
of xenon 136 (being four atomicmass
units heavier) would have been
twice that of xenon 134 (two atomic mass
units heavier) if physical sorting had operated.
We did not see that pattern. "

Can we rule out physical sorting, in a different state? The only way we could is if we could prove a same state past!

 

[Blayz]

So??? That means "something" happened. The question is what!??

Agreed. Science has come up with 1 theory. What is the alternative?

False. Only if we first assume a same state past and a host of same state miracles is anything inferred.

Ahh, but this is where your theory falls over horribly. Your problem is that the anomaly only exists in Oklo, Gabon. Everywhere else has different values. For your theory to be correct, not only is there a different state past, but it is uniquely different just in Gabon

For there to be a drop, you need to prove there was a certain amount?

Right, the amount we find everywhere else in the world.

Can we rule out physical sorting, in a different state? The only way we could is if we could prove a same state past!

Again, this is only true if the different state was only in Gabon.

It is not the comparison to early time that sinks you here, it is comparison of Gabon versus rest of world.

 

[dad]

Agreed. Science has come up with 1 theory. What is the alternative?

The alternative is that what is there came about NOT by a present state set of miracles. Best to admit you don't actually know. Like your need to invent a magic river.

Rivers sometimes change course, or dry up, or etc etc. You don't know. You have merely evoked what would be needed to prop up your fundamental premises. You can't prove a magical stream did what you claim it needed to do for half the life of the planet, no less!

What happened to the magic river when you magically submerge the whole darn area literally miles underneath the earth?? Then, when your imaginary present state reaction was cooked just right, you magically resurface the whole site back to the surface!!!

Come on people, this is lame. Let's rethink it.

"He explained that, after the fission process had finished, a geological shift caused the Oklo reactor to sink a few miles below the surface - where it was preserved from erosion.




A few million years ago, another shift brought the uranium deposits back to the surface. "

http://www.livescience.com/75-natura...nt-geyser.html

Ahh, but this is where your theory falls over horribly. Your problem is that the anomaly only exists in Oklo, Gabon. Everywhere else has different values. For your theory to be correct, not only is there a different state past, but it is uniquely different just in Gabon

Nothing for your side about being different! What we are looking at is your attempts to explain how it got that way.

Right, the amount we find everywhere else in the world.

The issue is why. And how.

Again, this is only true if the different state was only in Gabon.

No. That doesn't follow. All it would mean is that the unique changes in materials that happened there are not required to be explained in a same state fashion! That is what they tried to do, having to go to absurd lengths, and leaps of faith.

I mean they need aluminum to have been there at the start of their imaginary present state reaction. Then they need a magic river over half the life of earth itself doing it's wonders..

""It is not entirely obvious what forces
kept this xenon inside the aluminum
phosphate minerals for almost half the
planet’s lifetime. In particular, why was
the xenon generated during a given operational
pulse not driven off during the
next one? " ( OP link )

 

[Blayz]

Dad, you are not making any sense.

1) The amount of U235 in Gabon is different from the rest of the world
2) Gabon has a pattern of isotopes that look like they came from fission, the rest of the world does not.

It exactly follows that any alternate state past argument can only be applied to Gabon, because it is different from the rest of the world.

At any rate, I have said it often enough for anyone reading this thread to get my point, and you have so far provided no alternatives, and your entire argument consists of
"scientists say X...but they're wrong!" You provide no evidence of their wrongness nor any better alternative hypothesis. Until you do so, I bow out of this thread.

Dad, defeated 6th June 2011 by Dad himself.

 

[dad]

Dad, you are not making any sense.

1) The amount of U235 in Gabon is different from the rest of the world

So? Obviosuly something happened there. The question is what?

2) Gabon has a pattern of isotopes that look like they came from fission, the rest of the world does not.

False. Many are missing, and a series of miracles is required to make the same state past reaction fit. The dots do not actually connect in the way you think.

The time that the imaginary reaction went on is set to a same state decay assumption.

"
The
abundance of those lighter elements allowed
scientists to deduce that fission
reactions must have gone on for hundreds
of thousands of years.
" -OP link

In actual fact, the presence of some elements need not mean anything of the sort. To make it mean what they assume, they need to imagine extraordinary things happened. If we forget the supposed missing elements, and stop attributing the few elements we did find to an unproven past state reaction, we actually have a very different picture! Try looking at just the facts. After all, they were not exactly working with truckloads of material there


"
We applied this technique to many
tiny spots on our lone available fragment
of Oklo rock, only one millimeter thick
and four millimeters across.
"

It exactly follows that any alternate state past argument can only be applied to Gabon, because it is different from the rest of the world.

At any rate, I have said it often enough for anyone reading this thread to get my point, and you have so far provided no alternatives, and your entire argument consists of
"scientists say X...but they're wrong!" You provide no evidence of their wrongness nor any better alternative hypothesis. Until you do so, I bow out of this thread.

Dad, defeated 6th June 2011 by Dad himself.[/quote]

 

[sandwiches]

That is the misconception being forever destroyed here.

Better alert the scientific community that you have disemboweled the silly Oklo reactor findings. If only they had had your expertise, knowledge, and intellect, they could've avoided this whole embarrassing episode.

 

[dad]

Better alert the scientific community that you have disemboweled the silly Oklo reactor findings. If only they had had your expertise, knowledge, and intellect, they could've avoided this whole embarrassing episode.

Amen. But do you see any men of science here able to evidence the magic river they invoke?

"The most likely mechanism involves the action of groundwater, which presumably boiled away after the temperature reached some critical level. "

Science has NOTHING at all to do with your magic river, or with your imaginary DUNKING the whole site miles down under for no reason, and with no evidence!


"He explained that, after the fission process had finished, a geological shift caused the Oklo reactor to sink a few miles below the surface - where it was preserved from erosion.


A few million years ago, another shift brought the uranium deposits back to the surface. "


Pathetic.