Discussion

[Wedjat]

Hello everyone at EC. I'm back after a bit of an absence and feeling a bit dry when it comes to religious discussion. I'd like to invite people to pm me mostly to keep the conversation one on one, but if you would feel more comfortable posting in the thread that is fine too.
My goal is not very specific, any topic or questions that anyone posting would like to raise is fine, mostly I ask to stay away from C&E debates as I've just gotten tired of them and this really isn't the place for that anyway.
I will post a question to start with, though as I said, any other topic that you would like to talk with me about regarding religion is fine by me.

I noticed that some aspects of the Trinity seem to take precedence over others. From my observations, many people view Jesus, the son of God and the redeemer of man, as somehow more personally important than God the father. I think I might get a lot of responses saying that they are equal as they are the same, which I can see, but from an outside perspective, it seems that Jesus gets a good deal more attention than God and the Holy Spirit seems almost ignored all together. Again, I realize I'm talking about the same deity here, but I'm talking about venerating certain aspects of Him more than others. Any thoughts?

 

[drich0150]

Inatially Christ gets more attention because He is the key to salvation. Once you move past the initial points of salvation, you will find far more engaging discussions/studies on the Father as Well as the Holy Spirit.

In other words your experience of a Christ centered "religion" is due in part of your spiritual needs. Personally I find most of my conversations center around the Holy Spirit and the Gifts of the Spirit. And if you combine these discussions/studies with those of Jesus, then one can not help but point to the Father. What you seem to be discussing is only apart of a greater whole. As you spiritually mature so shall your conversations broaden.

 

[Wedjat]

Do you think that is more denomination specific or across the board?

 

[drich0150]

Some denominations are geared for those new in the faith, or those who take a more evangelistic path. more so than those who want to know more or can know more than the initial evangelistic message.

Progressive Spiritual development is not a requirement of the faith. We are simply responsible for what we have been given. for some that means a spiritual progression, and for others we are to specialize in evangelism. It all depends on our strengths and gifts.

 

[Wedjat]

That's put very nicely, it answers my question wonderfully. Do you think most people are conscious of this distinction though? It seems to me a lot of people put their focus where they put their focus because that is the way the church they attend is geared.

 

[drich0150]

Honestly, no. i think we simply "feel" out and sense if we are in the right place or not. If one is destine for a spiritual life beyond evangelism, but has been raised in an evangelistic church that person will "feel" out of place.(If he is not able to make that distinction yet.) It is up to that person to use his "gifts" to the best of his ability. If that means moving to a different denomination then that is what that person must do.
But again, it is not a sin to stay if that is where you need to be.

 

[Wedjat]

So (just to make sure I understand) A person drawn to God the Son, Jesus, may be being "called" in a way to spread God's word, while a person drawn to The Holy Spirit may be being called to grow in their personal faith? If that is right (and please correct me if I've misunderstood) then what is someone drawn to God the Father more apt (spiritually) to do?

 

[drich0150]

So (just to make sure I understand) A person drawn to God the Son, Jesus, may be being "called" in a way to spread God's word, while a person drawn to The Holy Spirit may be being called to grow in their personal faith? If that is right (and please correct me if I've misunderstood) then what is someone drawn to God the Father more apt (spiritually) to do?

All who wish to express the love outlined in our greatest command can do so through the Blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Our role at it's most basic understanding in this process will be referred to as "evangelism" for the purposes of this conversation. Evangelism will typically include a heavy concentration on Jesus Christ as He is the nucleus of this entire honored work. There are some of us who can live an entire life in an evangelistic role, and will be considered good and faithful servants, and yet there are others who can do the same work and when they are weighed and measured they will be found wanting. The work itself, is not what is in question. What will be considered is your faithfulness to the "Talents" that were entrusted to your care.
This principle has been illustrated with this parable found in Mt 25:
The Parable of the Bags of Gold

14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’
21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’
23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. 28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The bags of gold here can compare to your ability to comprehend and implement scripture, coupled with the "Gifts of the Spirit" (Found in 1Co 12) That you have been given. For the man who's Spiritual Gifts and understanding center around evangelism, he will be found as a good and faithful servant. For the Man who has the potential for more involved work such as speaking, Prayer, the application of knowledge, wisdom, interpretation, and/or revelation. but he buries this potential, and stays with something safe like evangelism will be weighed, measured and found wanting.

To compare the trinity of God to levels of faith is folly. I merely suggested that most of us if not all of us starting out in our faith will concentrate on Christ because that is the only way to the The Father. We all Seek God the Father, but we have been told He can only be reached through Jesus Christ. So again if you are seeking God for the first time then Christ will be the subject of most of your conversations.

There are some of us who move on to scripture, out reach, some of us take ministering positions, or one of the other many role that can be found in the church. Most of These works are fueled through Spiritual fruit (Gal 5:22) and Spiritual Gifts (1Co 12) therefore, most of the biblical discussion in the believers life will shift from an evangelistic nature, to one Dealing with the Holy Spirit. All of which can be considered the outward showing of the inner love one has for God/The Father.

 

[Wedjat]

Thank you for sharing your position with me, it is interesting to say the very least. I could not have hoped for it to be answered more eloquently.

 

[drich0150]

Your welcome. I look forward to your next question.

 

[Wedjat]

Ok, this question concerns me personally. There is (especially in the USA) a stigma surrounding Atheism. Do you think this is due more to sets of beliefs within religious bodies, a simple "them vs us" mentality, or actions of Atheists themselves? If you do think it's because of a religious belief, what specific aspects of it do you think causes this sort of hostility?

 

[salida]

Thery are equal-but have different functions concerning their roles with mankind. A husband and a wife are very important in a family but have different roles.

 

[drich0150]

Ok, this question concerns me personally. There is (especially in the USA) a stigma surrounding Atheism. Do you think this is due more to sets of beliefs within religious bodies, a simple "them vs us" mentality, or actions of Atheists themselves? If you do think it's because of a religious belief, what specific aspects of it do you think causes this sort of hostility?

I have found in my dealings with atheists that stigmas and hostility is not an exclusively christian trait. I am not saying it does not happen when christianity is being represented, I am saying it is a mutual thorn that one from either side has to over come if a true dialog is sought.

Why? I suspect Callousness and pride on both sides is formed after years and years of debate and bickering, on a subject(s) that we hold so near and dear to our hearts. This is true no matter which side of the issue you happen to be on.

 

[Wedjat]

Why is it do you think that this expresses itself more between Theists and Atheists than Theists of different faiths? I have met people who when confronted with someone who is Hindu respond with "oh that's cool" and ask serious questions, and when confronted with an Atheist, repeat the word in disbelief and ask largely rhetorical / ad hom questions (ie. they don't ask the Hindu if they're afraid to go to Hell, nor do they question their morality)
Admittedly I know many Atheists do tend to focus their attention on the prevailing religion, which in the US is Christianity, so I can understand backlash from that.

 

[JasperJackson]

Why is it do you think that this expresses itself more between Theists and Atheists than Theists of different faiths? I have met people who when confronted with someone who is Hindu respond with "oh that's cool" and ask serious questions, and when confronted with an Atheist, repeat the word in disbelief and ask largely rhetorical / ad hom questions (ie. they don't ask the Hindu if they're afraid to go to Hell, nor do they question their morality)
Admittedly I know many Atheists do tend to focus their attention on the prevailing religion, which in the US is Christianity, so I can understand backlash from that.

In addition to the sins of pride and callousness that drich mentioned I'd also say that it's because of Satan. Christianity is the one true faith and so whenever a Christian is evangelising a non-Christian Satan is at work trying to foil what's happening. He'll attack and tempt at different times and he'll do it to both the Christian and non-Christian alike... whatever it takes to keep the non-Christian from Christ.

 

[Wedjat]

I'm not really talking about evangelizing, mostly just general interaction.

 

[JasperJackson]

I'm not really talking about evangelizing, mostly just general interaction.

I understand, but whenever a Christian is talking to a non-Christian about God he should/is evangelising.

Or do you just mean any old conversation? Like, "how about that weather..."?

 

[singpeace]

Hello everyone at EC. I'm back after a bit of an absence and feeling a bit dry when it comes to religious discussion. I'd like to invite people to pm me mostly to keep the conversation one on one, but if you would feel more comfortable posting in the thread that is fine too.
My goal is not very specific, any topic or questions that anyone posting would like to raise is fine, mostly I ask to stay away from C&E debates as I've just gotten tired of them and this really isn't the place for that anyway.
I will post a question to start with, though as I said, any other topic that you would like to talk with me about regarding religion is fine by me.

I noticed that some aspects of the Trinity seem to take precedence over others. From my observations, many people view Jesus, the son of God and the redeemer of man, as somehow more personally important than God the father. I think I might get a lot of responses saying that they are equal as they are the same, which I can see, but from an outside perspective, it seems that Jesus gets a good deal more attention than God and the Holy Spirit seems almost ignored all together. Again, I realize I'm talking about the same deity here, but I'm talking about venerating certain aspects of Him more than others. Any thoughts?

Personally, I see your point and can say that I go through cycles. For a while I focus mostly on Jesus when I pray ... then for a while I speak to Father God more than to Jesus... I do speak to the Holy Spirit when I pray for someone to be healed.

If it weren't for the Father, we would not be here.
If it weren't for Jesus, we would never get to Heaven.
If it weren't for the Holy Spirit, we would never feel compelled to accept Christ.

I think it all depends on where a person IS emotionally and just how much he/she has been delivered/rescued/healed? The more a person has done bad, the more that person tends to really have a love affair with Jesus.

 

[Wedjat]

I understand, but whenever a Christian is talking to a non-Christian about God he should/is evangelising.

Or do you just mean any old conversation? Like, "how about that weather..."?

A conversation regarding religion it wouldn't really be on topic otherwise, but you are perfectly welcome to bring up a relevant topic of your own. I do want to leave this thread fairly open.

 

[drich0150]

Why is it do you think that this expresses itself more between Theists and Atheists than Theists of different faiths? I have met people who when confronted with someone who is Hindu respond with "oh that's cool" and ask serious questions, and when confronted with an Atheist, repeat the word in disbelief and ask largely rhetorical / ad hom questions (ie. they don't ask the Hindu if they're afraid to go to Hell, nor do they question their morality)
Admittedly I know many Atheists do tend to focus their attention on the prevailing religion, which in the US is Christianity, so I can understand backlash from that.

Truthfully I believe Theist do have a difficult time with people of "different faith" to a greater degree than do theists and atheists do. For example, How many wars have been fought between the different faiths, verses how many millions have been slaughtered between theism and atheism?

Without a doubt we do have our issues. I believe that most of our irreconcilable differences stem from our classification of faith. In that most atheists have been trained to believe that their beliefs are indeed built on solid truths, when in reality their beliefs are built on facts. The difference being is not all facts are true. a fact is merely a statement that can be proved or disproved. For example All criminal court cases are built on facts. If all facts presented in a case could be considered truth, no innocent man would ever be, or have been convicted, likewise no guilty man would ever be acquitted. This is not the case. It is a true fact that the guilty walk free and the innocent are incarcerated.

Again Fact are not synonymous to truth. It is true that fact can be found or proved to be true, but just because someone can classify a statement as fact doesn't mean it is true.

I say that to underline the following:
Because Atheist have a collective view on God.
Because Atheists have a set doctrine or "rules" that govern who can be considered an atheist.
Because Atheist have an a collective account of origins.
Because Most Atheists have a governing sense of morality.
Because Most atheists seem to have a need to seek out and save the "saved."

That makes Atheism a religious expression. One independent of God, but it is still a faith none the less. We see it as A faith in facts.

Now Because you all argue from a tactically religious stand point but will not accept or acknowledge your religious involvement, it makes for a frustrating discussion. It can be like have a fat gym coach shouting at you that your efforts are not good enough from his golf cart, while eating a cheeseburger.

Outside of the hypocrisy i have mentioned, I have found that most atheists are genuinely hostile towards those who profess a theistic faith, particularly Christianity. Take some time and read some of those who come here to "seek christianity." It would seem that they are here to destroy the faiths of others rather than to simply explore christianity. I ask how does one explore something he has already made his mind up on?

If this is not the case then why is there such a need to catalog in such great detail the "greater" attributes of one's faith over another's? Especially in a forum that is dedicated to the other person's faith? or more so to the point the exploration of the other person's faith.

Which for me points back to the atheist's version of the "Great commission."
It seems as if some of you are on a mission to seek out and save the "saved." by destroying what the saved believe, and replace it with your faith in "fact." Why? I believe so that it may free you from God's moral code so that you may live in one of your own choosing.