Discussion on the how it all started

[renniks]

Can you physically look at your birth? If you can’t how do you know how you were born? I assume you cannot time travel.

That's lame. I can see real pictures and talk to people who were there. Who was there at the beginning? Only God, and fortunately he told us what happened.

 

[Larniavc]

You do agree it can be wrong?

Yes it can be wrong. But you need to specify exactly which bit of evidence used to support it you have an issue with.

What you seem to be saying (correct me if I am wrong) is that you are not persuaded by ToE.

So my question to you would be which bit of ToE are you not convinced by?

For example, if you were to say that allele frequency in species does not change over generations and that the genotype does not change for that reason, that would be some thing we could explore.

When you say (I’m paraphrasing, here) that the fossil record does not support ToE you need to exactly why you think it does not support it.

By not being specific you leave yourself open to be being seen as making an argument from incredulity or accused of not understanding the material you are unconvinced by.

Does that make sense?

 

[renniks]

Well that is because you misstate it. It is the begging of our universe as we know it. What you are doing now is a Strawman Fallacy, misrepresenting the arguments of those debating against you. This is also improper.

Lol, thanks professor, but who made you boss?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's lame. I can see real pictures and talk to people who were there. Who was there at the beginning? Only God, and fortunately he told us what happened.

Where and to who?

 

[renniks]

Yes, currently there is a limit of how far we can go back. About 10^-43 sec after the onset of the Big Bang. Perhaps you could learn a little bit more before calling it "guesswork". Scientists try to be very clear on what they can determine and what they cannot.

Uh huh... Do you want me to list a bunch of the things that used to be scientific "fact"

How many were told that a meteorite killed the dinosaurs, for example?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Lol, thanks professor, but who made you boss?

I am only trying to help by making your errors clear. We all make mistakes and learning is done through the process of understanding one's errors.

Tell me, why would you wish to continue to make errors? That seems to be the behavior of someone that knows that he is wrong and does not want to change.

 

[Speedwell]

That's lame. I can see real pictures and talk to people who were there. Who was there at the beginning? Only God, and fortunately he told us what happened.

Did he, indeed. As I recall, I read one book where all he said was "Let there be light" which sounds rather like photons filling an expanding space-time manifold. Of course, that idea was developed by a devout Roman Catholic, so you must be referring to something else.

 

[renniks]

Faith is your downfall. Don't accuse others of that flaw. Concepts in the sciences can be tested. Faith is not allowed

Hogwash. You believe scientific "facts" that will be proved wrong within a matter of months or years. That's called faith.

 

[Larniavc]

That's lame. I can see real pictures and talk to people who were there. Who was there at the beginning? Only God, and fortunately he told us what happened.

Not so. How can you trust images held on technological devises or the testimony of people are pushing an agenda?

I know, I know that sounds absurd. But it’s the same as saying that we can’t trust our instruments of (for example) the age of the universe or the astronomers who interpreted the images of the distant universe?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Uh huh... Do you want me to list a bunch of the things that used to be scientific "fact"

How many were told that a meteorite killed the dinosaurs, for example?

Do you think that there was a different cause? There have been those that advocate for the Deccan Traps being a cause, but that has been pretty much refuted. The Deccan Traps almost certainly threatened many species of dinosaurs with extinction, but the asteroid, not a meteor, that struck Chicuxulub finished them off.

Of course not all dinosaurs died. I just had some dinosaur last week. Yummy!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hogwash. You believe scientific "facts" that will be proved wrong within a matter of months or years. That's called faith.

Really? Name one.

 

[Larniavc]

How many were told that a meteorite killed the dinosaurs, for example?

It did, though. They were in declined but the impact put their lights out.

Who said the impact did not wipe them out (well the non avian dinosaurs, obviously)?

 

[renniks]

Not so. How can you trust images held on technological devises or the testimony of people are pushing an agenda?

I know, I know that sounds absurd. But it’s the same as saying that we can’t trust our instruments of (for example) the age of the universe or the astronomers who interpreted the images of the distant universe?

No it's not. The farther back you go the more room for error... I know what I speak of. I deal in history quite a bit. Just try to replicate something as simple as how natives performed a certain tasks hundreds of years ago. Even if a white man was there watching, I can pretty much guarantee he got a whole bunch of pertinent details wrong. That's why a lot of skills have to be rediscovered, by experimentation. Observation and a written method used alone sucks as a way of gaining a skill, unless the person has actually performed that task.
Now apply that to guessing what went on billions of years ago by observing the evidence we have now... The possibility of error is almost endless.

 

[Larniavc]

Hogwash. You believe scientific "facts" that will be proved wrong within a matter of months or years. That's called faith.

Not so. Any honest scientists would say “this is what we think, but if we find out something new that could change”.

I can remember watching ‘Walking with Dinosaurs’ in the late 90s. I was captivated. But today I know a lot of it they got wrong.

That’s how science works: we keep learning more and our knowledge increases. We know that what we think now about most things is subject to revision. That’s why we are so touchy with the word ‘proof’.

Science is always trying to learn something new: if someone were to develop a new theory to explain the fact that things evolve they would be nerd superstars in seconds.

 

[renniks]

Really? Name one.

How would I know which one will be proven wrong? But many are every day, although it takes a while to trickle down to the common folk.

 

[renniks]

Not so. Any honest scientists would say “this is what we think, but if we find out something new that could change”.

I can remember watching ‘Walking with Dinosaurs’ in the late 90s. I was captivated. But today I know a lot of it they got wrong.

That’s how science works: we keep learning more and our knowledge increases. We know that what we think now about most things is subject to revision. That’s why we are so touchy with the word ‘proof’.

Science is always trying to learn something new: if someone were to develop a new theory to explain the fact that things evolve they would be nerd superstars in seconds.

Well there you go... There is hardly such a thing as a scientific fact, and yet y'all keep claiming to know what happened billions of years ago. You don't know... you believe.

 

[renniks]

It did, though. They were in declined but the impact put their lights out.

Who said the impact did not wipe them out (well the non avian dinosaurs, obviously)?

Did it? And what will you know when some scientist comes up with a new theory in two weeks? Will you still "know" the old one?

 

[Larniavc]

No it's not. The farther back you go the more room for error... I know what I speak of. I deal in history quite a bit. Just try to replicate something as simple as how natives performed a certain tasks hundreds of years ago. Even if a white man was there watching, I can pretty much guarantee he got a whole bunch of pertinent details wrong. That's why a lot of skills have to be rediscovered, by experimentation. Observation and a written method used alone sucks as a way of gaining a skill, unless the person has actually performed that task.
Now apply that to guessing what went on billions of years ago by observing the evidence we have now... The possibility of error is almost endless.

You can’t compare history to astrophysics. One is a science, one is not.

 

[renniks]

You can’t compare history to astrophysics. One is a science, one is not.

Umm, history is exactly what we're talking about, ancient history. Are you trying to say that our experimental archaeology isn't a science?

 

[Larniavc]

Well there you go... There is hardly such a thing as a scientific fact, and yet y'all keep claiming to know what happened billions of years ago. You don't know... you believe.

Not so, there are facts (such as how things evolve) and they don’t change.

But the theory that explains why the facts are the way they is subject to future change.

For example: it is a FACT that objects accelerate to the ground at 10m/s/s. But why it is so is explained by Gravitational THEORY.