Discussion on Hell: my biggest stumbling block

Gxg (G²) · Mar 24, 2013

Big Fudge said:
I am curious about what the Orthodox think of C.S. Lewis' statement "The gates of hell are locked from the inside".

Considering, from what I understand, that the Orthodox understanding of hell is that both the righteous and the unrighteous are in the presence of God (which makes perfect sense to me) but being in the presence of God while willingly choosing to reject him... if someone were to relent, give in and accept God's love, would the torment cease and God's presence become bliss like what the righteous experience?

Good question - as I was wondering on this recently..

Lukaris · Mar 25, 2013

The Lord Jesus Christ gave us the parable of the good Samaritan as someone who must be an example of those who do His will & He will determine to be in His kingdom. To ponder another parable, I believe the good Samaritan would have helped poor Lazarus who was left to die while a rich man lived it up.

nestoj · Mar 25, 2013

Big Fudge said:
I am curious about what the Orthodox think of C.S. Lewis' statement "The gates of hell are locked from the inside".

Considering, from what I understand, that the Orthodox understanding of hell is that both the righteous and the unrighteous are in the presence of God (which makes perfect sense to me) but being in the presence of God while willingly choosing to reject him... if someone were to relent, give in and accept God's love, would the torment cease and God's presence become bliss like what the righteous experience?

I believe that would be the case. But, there's no "time" with God. For a change, as physics of Aristotle goes, is fundamentally linked to time and movement. In other words - there is change because there is time. Now, if we agree that God is unchangeable and outside of time, then we understand the different reality awaiting us once in direct presence of God. Perhaps, I don't know, there can be direct growth in the path set for a person before coming into the direct presence of God, but I don't think there could be changing that direction. Actually, even though we ourselves can't do it, God could do it - fundamentally change the person and make His presence Heaven rather than Hell for that person. But that would be a God doing it and, in such a way, God would be breaking the freedom of will of that person if said person is not already wishing for a change to happen (that would also mean that a person is aware of its sin and is actually repenting). But then, if the wish is not there already, suddenly wishing it would mean change in an environment without changes...and we enter an infinite loop.

But it's all guessing. Fact is, I think this is the way it is...but in reality have no idea.

ArmyMatt · Mar 25, 2013

Big Fudge said:
I am curious about what the Orthodox think of C.S. Lewis' statement "The gates of hell are locked from the inside".

Considering, from what I understand, that the Orthodox understanding of hell is that both the righteous and the unrighteous are in the presence of God (which makes perfect sense to me) but being in the presence of God while willingly choosing to reject him... if someone were to relent, give in and accept God's love, would the torment cease and God's presence become bliss like what the righteous experience?

I would say yes, because no one ever loses their free will. so it is possible for hell to be empty eventually.

Cappadocious · Mar 25, 2013

ArmyMatt said:
I would say yes, because no one ever loses their free will. so it is possible for hell to be empty eventually.

But everyone loses their gnomic will.

Protoevangel · Mar 25, 2013

ArmyMatt said:
I would say yes, because no one ever loses their free will. so it is possible for hell to be empty eventually.

Possibly, in a remote, theoretical way. IMO, it can be dangerous to dwell on this at length though. Claiming that hell "will be" emptied is an anathematized heresy...

"To those who reject the immortality of the soul, the end of time, the future judgment, and eternal reward for virtue and condemnation for sin, Anathema!"

Even Metropolitan Kallistos (who is sometimes quoted to defend apocatastasis), admits that fact: "It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved."

Just be very careful not to chose your "theologoumena" based on your "feelies". That grown into heresy.

I'm not arguing with anyone, just offering a word of caution, hopefully well before it's necessary for any reader.

jckstraw72 · Mar 25, 2013

i dont know, seems the Church is pretty clear about there being no repentance after death. its better yet to have no theologumena -tis a silly concept anyways.

nestoj · Mar 25, 2013

jckstraw72 said:
i dont know, seems the Church is pretty clear about there being no repentance after death. its better yet to have no theologumena -tis a silly concept anyways.

True.

Gxg (G²) · Mar 25, 2013

Protoevangel said:
Possibly, in a remote, theoretical way. IMO, it can be dangerous to dwell on this at length though. Claiming that hell "will be" emptied is an anathematized heresy...

"To those who reject the immortality of the soul, the end of time, the future judgment, and eternal reward for virtue and condemnation for sin, Anathema!"

Even Metropolitan Kallistos (who is sometimes quoted to defend apocatastasis), admits that fact: "It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved."

Just be very careful not to chose your "theologoumena" based on your "feelies". That grown into heresy.

I'm not arguing with anyone, just offering a word of caution, hopefully well before it's necessary for any reader.

Wouldn't what you note be more so within the line of discussing Universal Reconcilliation - the concept that Hell will not be empty...but that due to God's nature, there is still the choice to repent even when in Hell if one chooses to be purified?

Just trying to be certain. I'm aware of how others advocated apocatastasis (Origen's teaching, at least in his younger speculative days) and other things directly in line with what C.S Lewis noted when it comes to Hell being optional/based on choice (as he said the doors of Hell are locked from the inside rather than from the outside - more discussed here in #1/#14 ).

Protoevangel · Mar 25, 2013

Gxg (G²);62704753 said:
Wouldn't what you note be more so within the line of discussing Universal Reconcilliation - the concept that Hell will not be empty...but that due to God's nature, there is still the choice to repent even when in Hell if one chooses to be purified?

Just trying to be certain.

I was responding to what I quoted, which was talking about the possibility that hell may one day be emptied.

Gxg (G²) · Mar 25, 2013

Protoevangel said:
I was responding to what I quoted, which was talking about the possibility that hell may one day be emptied.

Caught that, just to be clear - although I was wanting to make sure I understood what you noted when you quoted Metropolitan Kallistos on being used to defend apocatastasis. I couldn't tell whether or not you supported apocatastasis even though you were against the concept that all must be saved.

Protoevangel · Mar 25, 2013

Gxg (G²);62705029 said:
Caught that, just to be clear - although I was wanting to make sure I understood what you noted when you quoted Metropolitan Kallistos on being used to defend apocatastasis. I couldn't tell whether or not you supported apocatastasis even though you were against the concept that all must be saved.

I see. I use apocatastasis in this sense:

"Apocatastasis or apokatastasis (from Greek: ἀποκατάστασις; literally, "restoration" or "return") is the teaching that everyone will, in the end, be saved."
- Apocatastasis - OrthodoxWiki

ArmyMatt · Mar 26, 2013

Protoevangel said:
Possibly, in a remote, theoretical way. IMO, it can be dangerous to dwell on this at length though. Claiming that hell "will be" emptied is an anathematized heresy...

"To those who reject the immortality of the soul, the end of time, the future judgment, and eternal reward for virtue and condemnation for sin, Anathema!"

Even Metropolitan Kallistos (who is sometimes quoted to defend apocatastasis), admits that fact: "It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved."

Just be very careful not to chose your "theologoumena" based on your "feelies". That grown into heresy.

I'm not arguing with anyone, just offering a word of caution, hopefully well before it's necessary for any reader.

oh I agree, I am not saying hell will be emptied (Christ speaking about Judas makes it hard to think that it would), I am just saying that it is possible in that humans never lose their free will, even after the Final Judgment. now, to clarify, I believe that after the Last Day, those who chose hell commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and will never be redeemed.

toLiJC · Mar 26, 2013

truthseeker32 said:
1. What must a person do to experience Hell?

the "hell" is the second(-ary) appearance of the "death", while the "death" is the vitiation at large i.e. things like: fall from grace, unhappiness, desolation, sorrow, bother, stress, aggravation, heartache, suffering, pain, degradation, misery, derangement, penury, famine, degenerative diseases, pestilences, congenital ailment, deformation, disability, dying, etc.

Revelation 6:8 "I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him."

truthseeker32 said:
2. Why must Hell be permanent?

the painful punishment of God cannot be endless, because God is not unfair/unjust that to punish any villain more than it deserves, e.g. if a human stole something which costs ten cents then it would be unjust if the same be punished for 100 years in jail only because of ten cents, but how much more God would never punish any human more then it hurt/harmed?!

truthseeker32 said:
3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?

this question is not clearly formulated and i cannot understand what you exactly ask with it?!

truthseeker32 said:
4. Do you think it is possible to experience joy and pleasure in Hell?

it was possible till now, e.g. some people felt both [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and affliction during sex

truthseeker32 said:
5. How is the eternal suffering experienced by those in Hell justified in light of God's goodness?

to me this question is not clearly formulated too and cannot give an answer to it when i do not know what exactly you ask with it?!

but however the purpose of the true God is to provide complete salvation and abundant life to all humans/souls for the entire eternity, not to cause them a hurt/harm/perdition

Blessings

Johnnz · Mar 26, 2013

For me the central concept is that one day true justice will prevail. What that means in relation to eternity is often debated, but we miss something very important if we focus on the 'how long?' question rather than the triumph of the good and having all wrongs adequately addressed.

John
NZ

Wesley1982 · Mar 26, 2013

truthseeker32 said:
I posted this over in OBOB, but I wanted to get an Orthodox perspective on these questions as well.

I would not call myself a universalist, but I do believe I am much more open to the idea that everyone, or at least most people, will be saved. However, I want to get the other side's perspective on this issue so I thought I would bring it here for discussion. I will start it off with some questions for those who would like to participate.

1. What must a person do to experience Hell?

2. Why must Hell be permanent?

3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?

4. Do you think it is possible to experience joy and pleasure in Hell?

5. How is the eternal suffering experienced by those in Hell justified in light of God's goodness?

Feel free to answer any of the above. I look forward to reading your answers.

Why focus on hell when you're supposed to make the destination journey to heaven? ...

Lukaris · Mar 27, 2013

Wesley1982 said:
Why focus on hell when you're supposed to make the destination journey to heaven? ...

It is not a matter of focus but it is not to be neglected either:

Luke 12:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus Teaches the Fear of God

4 And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

ArmyMatt · Mar 27, 2013

Wesley1982 said:
Why focus on hell when you're supposed to make the destination journey to heaven? ...

"Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not." -St Silouan of Mt Athos

"None of those who have hell before their eyes will fall into it. Nothing is so profitable as to converse concerning hell. It renders our souls purer than any silver." -St John Chrysostom

truthseeker32 · Apr 22, 2013

I thought I would bump this since I struggle so greatly with this subject.

No matter what I read, no matter how much I pray, and no matter what I hear from others I cannot bring myself to believe that anyone will spend eternity in Hell. This is distressing for me since it is really the only big thing keeping me from fully committing to Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. Even the view that those who experience Hell do so of their own choosing, but I have difficulty believing that anyone would choose eternally to reject God. It seems like eventually God would get through to everyone.

rusmeister · Apr 22, 2013

TS - did you read the works I referenced? If this bothers you this much, I'd think you'd be motivated to see what Lewis had to say. (and for those that think that all Orthodox truth must be expressed only by Orthodox Christians, yes, it IS in line with Orthodox theology, so it really doesn't matter that he wasn't an Orthodox Christian in saying it.)

It seems like you're denying the will of a person who. Will. Not. Repent. What about the guy who still, after aeons, would derive pleasure from pulling the wings off flies with a self-satisfied smile and that sickness in his soul that he refuses to let go of, who is still the center of his own universe and would accept heaven only on his own conditions (of which that would be the first - that he would be god unto himself)? He's causing he'll for himself, and refuses to stop.

Haven't you read about the dwarves in Lewis's "The Last Battle", who refused to see heaven, even though it was right there and nobody was "punishing" them?

Man is fallen, and God has left him free to choose to REMAIN fallen. Jesus spoke the parable of the sheep and the goats and we must not say that there will be no goats. We are right to hope that all will "be sheep", but wrong to insist that they MUST be.

It seems obvious to me that the heresy of universalism, at the very least, removes a necessary stimulus for striving towards salvation in this life, and I think that is part of the reason we are right to hold it as a heresy. Effort and change on our part is essential in the synergy of salvation. The effect of universalism is to say that NO MATTER WHAT WE CHOOSE, God will "take care of everything", negating our free will.

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