Discussing sin, what is true and false

[Albion]

I agree with you. We see it every day--clumsy wording that allows the hearer or reader to think something was meant when, in reality, that was not the message. And then OTOH, when you choose your words with care, the other person is just as likely as not to read what he wants or expects to be there anyway.

 

[Blade]

To be BORN AGAIN.. born from above. Something is made NEW. We put of the old man and put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Its just like our brother said.. Paul .. that which I should do.. I dont and that which I should not do I do. Its no longer I that sin but the sin that is in me. This flesh has not been changed..yet. So the battle is still there.

But.. that hold that sin had.. where we had no control is gone. We WALK in the spirit so we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh. Is a free choice to all that are IN Christ Jesus. He gave us ALL power over the enemy. So.. there is no SIN repent SIN repent over and over..freely. Like walking out of your house.. you dont look back.. you keep going forward.. we do a 180..if we fall and fall and fall .. RUN TO HIM! Repent.. and if your stuck in some sin.. RUN TO HIM! For He will not does not judge you..nor condemn you. And WILL make a way where there is none.

The thinking we can sin and then just repent.. does not come from God and no believer thinks like that. Its NOT written. Sin.. it opens a door to the enemy.. we push God away and allow the enemy to come in. SIN was paid for.. yet if we freely sin.. that sin has a PRICE! And the reward for sin has no changed.. its DEATH in this world. ALL sin.. is a lie...God/Christ will never leave us.. but with SIN...we never get to have ALL that the Father has for us. So.. take your mind off sin and keep it on HIM.. and seek HIM 1st and EVERYTHING else will come and flow....if we miss it.. dont beat your self up..just lol get up..dust off ..repent and keep going.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[St_Worm2]

Two different kinds of sin does not preclude the possibility of varying degrees of sin, though.

Agreed. For instance, there are sins that the Lord calls abominations. There are the sins that He hates/are detestable to Him (Proverbs 6). There are the traditional "7 deadly sins". The question is, are there differing penalties for lessor and greater sins? I think so, as I believe true justice would demand it in the life to come (just like, on the flip-side, there are varying "rewards" for those who receive eternal life). I don't believe there is any lessor sin that is simply "winked" at by the Father, because His Son was required to die of the Cross to atone for all of them. It seems like we are probably on the same page about all of this so I will stop. You continue:

The post you responded to suggested that greater sins would bring a person to Hell, while lesser sins would be overlooked, and I do not disagree with your response that there is only one such greater sin and that all other sins are equally forgivable, and all other sins lead equally to death. However, I would also say that this does not mean that all sins are equal in gravity. A small sin and a great sin both lead to Hell, but there is still a difference between them in that one is small and one is great.

Yes, the passages from Matthew 12, Mark 3, Luke 12, and 1 John 5, tell us there is a single sin that is unpardonable once it's been committed, but there are other sins that lead to physical death, even for believers, Ananias and Sapphira from Acts of the Apostles 5 being the perfect example, though I do not believe their sin will result in their demise in the age to come.

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

What do you think it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

The Pharisees, who knew they wrong (and with fully calloused hearts didn't care), attributed the works of God the HS (exorcisms in this case) to Satan/Satanic power. That's how they blasphemed the HS (or at least came very close to doing so).

He convicts of unbelief, John 16:8-9, and if you consistently reject Him, you will not believe and you will remain in your unbelief, so how can there be forgiveness if you are rejecting the One who is offering forgiveness?

The unpardonable sin is just that, "unpardonable", from the very moment it's first committed. This is not true of unbelief, which is a sin that can be both committed and forgiven, any time prior to a person's death.

Yours and His,
David

 

[redleghunter]

The "sin-management" approach to Christianity has a wake of spiritual abuse and harm so long that educated people tend to see religion now days as deeply problematic.

Don't know what you mean by 'sin management.' However, the Apostle Paul was quite clear on teaching the difference between walking in Spirit and that of walking in the flesh:

Romans 8: NASB
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[JIMINZ]

While this certainly is a form of blasphemy of the Spirit, I would ask you to consider the possibility that you may have narrowed the definition too much by boiling it down to just that one example. There are different ways to blaspheme the Spirit, and while it is clear that the Bible gives that as an example, it is not clear at all that the Bible suggests that that one specific action is the only way to commit that sin.

.
I am sorry but your understanding is incorrect, because the Definition is a very narrow one.

Were not talking about 21 century mans understanding of of the word with the English definition, but the Greek word as it was Translated twice in the verse which it was written Mat. 12:31

Mat 12:31,32
31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

BLASPHEMY:
G988
βλασφημία
blasphēmia
blas-fay-me'-ah
From G989; vilification (especially against God): - blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.

G989
βλάσφημος
blasphēmos
blas'-fay-mos
Scurrilous, that is, calumnious (against man), or (specifically) impious (against God): - blasphemer (-mous), railing.

You see, (Blasphemy) is only used 7 times in 5 verses in the Gospels and Acts, and there is only 1 verse where the word is used which does not have the same definition, this is G987, and refers back to G989.

Blasphemy:
G987
βλασφημέω
blasphēmeō
blas-fay-meh'-o
From G989; to vilify; specifically to speak impiously: - (speak) blaspheme (-er, -mously, -my), defame, rail on, revile, speak evil.

Then in the rest of the New Testament, it is only used 5 more times, and all of them is G988.

 

[Seun]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

I think it wouldn’t be taking advantage, but maybe rebellious and unthankful. If someone were to ask forgiveness and repent for their sin, which is a lifelong thing, then that’s okay. If someone were to ask forgiveness and keep sinning it would be a question of sincerity. Then there is also 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

 

[JIMINZ]

It really does not matter if there are two Types of sin, or there are two Degrees of sin, both are sin and if sin goes untreated with Forgiveness, they both lead to death and hell, and we all know there aren't degrees of hell.

Lev. 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Pro. 11:1
A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

These are two different (Types and Degrees) of sin, but both are Abomination, what then is the difference?

If I ran you over in a VW Bug or a Semi Truck are you going to quibble about the difference between which one killed you, or made you deader, aren't you still dead?

 

[Doug Melven]

The unpardonable sin is just that, "unpardonable", from the very moment it's first committed. This is not true of unbelief, which is a sin that can be both committed and forgiven, any time prior to a person's death.

It is not just about remaining in unbelief, which you can forgiven of if you repent.
But the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, as noted by @JIMINZ in post 46 there is railing against Him.
Somebody can't expect to reject the Holy Spirit with and expect to be forgiven.

 

[discipler7]

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

Yes.

Sins have unpleasant consequences.

Adam's Original Sin committed through the Great Liar, Satan, who was disguised as a friendly talking serpent/snake, resulted in spiritual death for all humankind = all are sinners and are bound for hell when they die.(GENESIS.3:14-17, ROMANS.5:12) Hence, fallen Man often involuntarily sin-in-thoughts = have immoral hate, anger, lust, greed, selfishness, jealousy, pride, fears/worries, doubts, etc, in their hearts.

If then the fallen Man go and voluntarily commit sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking, eg murder, adultery/sexual immorality, stealing, lying/cheating, idolatry, blasphemy, etc, they would be cursed by God with terror and calamities = have a sad and short life on earth.(DEUT.28:15, PROVERBS.1:25, 1COR.5:5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16, HEB.10:26)

Adam's Original Sin and its curse of hell-fire can be forgiven through blood atonement because it is an unintentional or involuntary sin, as per LEV.4.(LEV.17:11, HEB.9:22 & 8:10, JOHN.1:29)

Evil-deeds/sins/law-breaking cannot be forgiven because they are intentional or voluntary = the sinners/evildoers will have to suffer the curses/consequences at the hands of God or His agents, eg convicted murderers are executed.
....... Nevertheless, God/Jesus has the authority and discretion to forgive even such intentional sins and remove the curses/consequences, eg healings, exorcisms, miracles, raising of the dead, signs and wonders.(HEB.2:4)

MATTHEW.7:21-23 = I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1CORINTHIANS.6:9-11 = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Danielwright2311]

There is a difference to free sin and tempted sin.

If you sin freely then you are guilty, but if you are tempted and fall then you can be easily forgiven.

But if you dont care then you wont seek forgiveness.

 

[JIMINZ]

There is a difference to free sin and tempted sin.

If you sin freely then you are guilty, but if you are tempted and fall then you can be easily forgiven.

But if you dont care then you wont seek forgiveness.

.
If there are two people and each one of them sin freely, or commit a sin of temptation, if neither one seeks or obtains forgiveness for those sins, will not both end up in hell?

 

[zoidar]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

There are two parts of salvation, faith and obedience. If you don't have obedience your faith isn't counted as faith, since it's dead. Some Christians believe in salvation without works, but that is not the teaching of the first Christians. Faith + obedience = salvation. Rest assured, God will judge us through our relationship with Christ, do we live for him or do we live for ourselves?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The Pharisees, who knew they wrong (and with fully calloused hearts didn't care), attributed the works of God the HS (exorcisms in this case) to Satan/Satanic power. That's how they blasphemed the HS (or at least came very close to doing so).

The unpardonable sin is just that, "unpardonable", from the very moment it's first committed. This is not true of unbelief, which is a sin that can be both committed and forgiven, any time prior to a person's death.

Yours and His,
David

Hi david,

I believe that the unpardonable sin is both unbelief, and an actual action. There is no one particular sin that is unforgivable, be it adultery, lust, nothing, all sin is covered by the cross. The cross is a righteous life given, for an unrighteous one, so our whole life time of sin is covered. The biggest problem with the unpardonable sin is Christians often worry that they have committed it. The fact is a person who wills to believe (whilst alive in the flesh) can be saved, there is no one sin that can separate them from God, or his Holy Spirit.

Belief is what saves a Christian. But if you note the scriptures God can cause a person to not believe.

2Th 2:11-12 So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie. All of them will be punished, because they would rather do evil than believe the truth.

God actually causes unbelief in a sinner so that they "will not believe", and what a is the reason? They "would rather do evil than believe the truth".

That was the condemnation of the Pharisee:

Joh 8:43-44 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

When a person attributes the powerful working of the Holy Spirit to a devil, they are essentially, denying God, so they can sin. The Holy Spirit is always leading a person away from sin, if they desire sin more than that leading, they will become blind, they will no longer believe in the crosses power, even though it is available to cover all of their sin.

I believe you need to be careful not to say there is one, unpardonable sin, for many believers think they have done it, and it prevents them from accessing the grace that is available to them. The unpardonable sin is desiring sin more than the truth, to the point God lets us be blind.

 

[JIMINZ]

Hi david,

I believe that the unpardonable sin is both unbelief, and an actual action. There is no one particular sin that is unforgivable, be it adultery, lust, nothing, all sin is covered by the cross. The cross is a righteous life given, for an unrighteous one, so our whole life time of sin is covered. The biggest problem with the unpardonable sin is Christians often worry that they have committed it. The fact is a person who wills to believe (whilst alive in the flesh) can be saved, there is no one sin that can separate them from God, or his Holy Spirit.

Belief is what saves a Christian. But if you note the scriptures God can cause a person to not believe.

2Th 2:11-12 So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie. All of them will be punished, because they would rather do evil than believe the truth.

God actually causes unbelief in a sinner so that they "will not believe", and what a is the reason? They "would rather do evil than believe the truth".

That was the condemnation of the Pharisee:

Joh 8:43-44 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

When a person attributes the powerful working of the Holy Spirit to a devil, they are essentially, denying God, so they can sin. The Holy Spirit is always leading a person away from sin, if they desire sin more than that leading, they will become blind, they will no longer believe in the crosses power, even though it is available to cover all of their sin.

I believe you need to be careful not to say there is one, unpardonable sin, for many believers think they have done it, and it prevents them from accessing the grace that is available to them. The unpardonable sin is desiring sin more than the truth, to the point God lets us be blind.

.
Your whole belief structure on the subject sounds really good on paper, but Jesus said this on this specific subject and sin.

Mat. 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:

but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[zoidar]

The unforgivable sin is rejection of the Holy Spirit's working in someone convicting them of there unbelief.
As long as someone is alive (breathing) there is hope for them to accept Christ. If they die rejecting Him, they cannot be forgiven. That is the unforgivable sin.

I think blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when a person knows Christ in his heart by the Holy Spirit and then renounce Christ. Such a person knows very well what he is doing. Since he knows Christ, and is willingly turning his face away from Jesus, he that died for him and gave him eternal life. It would be like crucifying Christ anew.

It's a different matter if a person loses faith for some reason, then he can be turned back to faith.

Origen writes this on the matter:

"...but a share in the Holy Spirit we find possessed only by the saints. And therefore it is said, ―No man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.‖ And on one occasion, scarcely even the apostles themselves are deemed worthy to hear the words, ―Ye shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you.‖ For this reason, also, I think it follows that he who has committed a sin against the Son of man is deserving of forgiveness; because if he who is a participator of the word or reason of God ceases to live agreeably to reason, he seems to have fallen into a state of ignorance or folly, and therefore to deserve forgiveness; whereas he who has been deemed worthy to have a portion of the Holy Spirit, and who has relapsed, is, by this very act and work, said to be guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."

http://www.midamerica.edu/uploads/files/pdf/journal/02-lammejournal2012.pdf

 

[JIMINZ]

I think blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when a person knows Christ in his heart by the Holy Spirit and then renounce Christ. Such a person knows very well what he is doing. Since he knows Christ, and is willingly turning his face away from Jesus, he that died for him and gave him eternal life. It would be like crucifying Christ anew.

It's a different matter if a person loses faith for some reason, then he can be turned back to faith.

Origen writes this on the matter:

"...but a share in the Holy Spirit we find possessed only by the saints. And therefore it is said, ―No man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.‖ And on one occasion, scarcely even the apostles themselves are deemed worthy to hear the words, ―Ye shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you.‖ For this reason, also, I think it follows that he who has committed a sin against the Son of man is deserving of forgiveness; because if he who is a participator of the word or reason of God ceases to live agreeably to reason, he seems to have fallen into a state of ignorance or folly, and therefore to deserve forgiveness; whereas he who has been deemed worthy to have a portion of the Holy Spirit, and who has relapsed, is, by this very act and work, said to be guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."

http://www.midamerica.edu/uploads/files/pdf/journal/02-lammejournal2012.pdf

.
ORIGEN is just wrong, and you haven't provided any Scripture to back up your beliefs.

 

[zoidar]

Hi david,

I believe that the unpardonable sin is both unbelief, and an actual action. There is no one particular sin that is unforgivable, be it adultery, lust, nothing, all sin is covered by the cross. The cross is a righteous life given, for an unrighteous one, so our whole life time of sin is covered. The biggest problem with the unpardonable sin is Christians often worry that they have committed it. The fact is a person who wills to believe (whilst alive in the flesh) can be saved, there is no one sin that can separate them from God, or his Holy Spirit.

Belief is what saves a Christian. But if you note the scriptures God can cause a person to not believe.

2Th 2:11-12 So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie. All of them will be punished, because they would rather do evil than believe the truth.

God actually causes unbelief in a sinner so that they "will not believe", and what a is the reason? They "would rather do evil than believe the truth".

That was the condemnation of the Pharisee:

Joh 8:43-44 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

When a person attributes the powerful working of the Holy Spirit to a devil, they are essentially, denying God, so they can sin. The Holy Spirit is always leading a person away from sin, if they desire sin more than that leading, they will become blind, they will no longer believe in the crosses power, even though it is available to cover all of their sin.

I believe you need to be careful not to say there is one, unpardonable sin, for many believers think they have done it, and it prevents them from accessing the grace that is available to them. The unpardonable sin is desiring sin more than the truth, to the point God lets us be blind.

If you want to be forgiven, to have a relationship with Jesus, it's not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Such a person want nothing to do with the kingdom of God. Without the pull of the Holy Spirit, there is no regret, there is no remorse ... no change of mind.

 

[zoidar]

.
ORIGEN is just wrong, and you haven't provided any Scripture to back up your beliefs.

Heb 6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Of course I don't KNOW. But I believe this is what it's about. I know you can be turned back from losing faith, I was, but having the Holy Spirit and willingly renouncing Christ ... ? People died as martyrs for that very reason, to not renounce Christ.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

If you want to be forgiven, to have a relationship with Jesus, it's not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Such a person want nothing to do with the kingdom of God. Without the pull of the Holy Spirit, there is no regret, there is no remorse ... no change of mind.

I agree with you ....