Disciplining kids

[Ignatius21]

I have a question for you Orthodox parents, and that is, is there any particular "typical" attitude toward the use of spanking as a form of discipline among Orthodox? The prevailing secular approach to discipline is very much against any form of physical discipline (in some states people have introduced bills to outlaw spanking as child abuse). Among Christians I know, the attitude varies. At the Presbyterian church where we'd gone, the attitude was overwhelmingly pro-spanking, and it was reasoned to be "God's design" clearly taught in Scripture...

Which consisted almost entirely of a few verses from Proverbs, such as "Hit the child with a rod so that he shall not die," and "A rod is for the backs of fools." Any figurative meaning of "rod" as general discipline (after all, Paul threatened to come to his churches "with a rod" at times, but I can't imagine he was coming to spank anyone!) was downplayed or ignored, and those verses weren't presented as allowing spanking, or even as recommending spanking, but as requiring corporal punishment. A few people said (not to us, more out loud) that anyone who does not spank is sinning against God and their children. "Worldly" methods like "time outs" were mocked with a rather prideful attitude, in my opinion.

Underlying the entire framework, of course, was the belief that every child (as well as every adult) is totally depraved and inwardly wicked.

Is there an Orthodox understanding of those verses? Of discipline in general? Does it really just matter from one culture to another, or one family to another? I guess with Orthodoxy generally focusing on "therapy" rather than punishment...and not holding to total depravity...it might have a generally different attitude toward discipline?

I'll quit rambling now. Any thoughts?

 

[angrylittlefisherman]

Well, I think you will find mixed opinions about what is appropriate. We have three preists at our church, to whom have told us slightly to drastically different things. However the general consensus that we have come to through discussing acts of discipline with our children is that every situation has to be approached with consideration of the child and the act of disobedience. And that corporal punishment should be reserved for extreme cases of disobedience or to convey a message that perhaps cannot yet be processed by the child's mind. In any case the only thing that seems to be condoned is a swat on the rear end, which is a far cry from my upbringing.
If you are interested in some ideas of child raising take a look at the book "The Path to Salvation" by St. Theophan the Recluse. The first hundred pages are on children.

 

[Dorothea]

For our family, spanking is rare, especially now that they're older. Usually taking away privileges is our punishment of choice. Groundings and that type of thing.

 

[MamaBug]

I'm not aware of a general attitude. I know of one (incredibly devout almost to the point of being a mini-monastery) Romanian family who uses no praise or punishment. They are into some book called 'Punished by Rewards'.

We're not opposed to spanking - I just don't think it works very well for our particular child. He is much better disciplined through a combination of taking away privileges, behavior modification plans, logical rewards and consequences, and reasoning. I think discipline depends on the child - every kid is different and what works for one won't for the other. That is one of the things I like about my son's school - they don't have a systematic behaviour policy but select what seems appropriate for both the offense and the child.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, I think this thing is between a set of parents and their priest. I don't think that there is a general attitude about it.

 

[Photini]

I spanked my oldest kid and quickly found it to be the least effective form of discipline. I don't plan on going through that mess again with Allie (or any future children). Maybe it works for some people, but not for my family. If a priest ever told me that I had to spank my kids because the Bible says I have to, I would probably stop attending that parish.

 

[Blackknight]

There is no one size fits all when it comes to kids any more than the same spiritual practice works for every adult.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Agreed - you're not going to find a "set" answer in Orthodoxy. I myself have seen a wide variety of styles in several different parishes.

As an adult survivor of a fundamentalist mother who bragged about her piety and "obeying God's word and not spoiling the child!", because she would fly into a rage and beat me, often several times a day, for anything from dropping something to her thinking I looked at her wrong, I haven't a lot of use for physical punishment. I recognize that it can be performed non-abusively, but I don't think everyone who thinks they're doing it non-abusively, actually is. We tried it briefly but stopped it because a) it felt like a betrayal of their trust in us and b) it just doesn't work, nor does it actually do what we want to accomplish in regards to discipline, which is to teach, model, and encourage correct behavior.

I don't think every parent who spanks is abusive. But I think there are better ways.

FWIW, we are big into the "Love and Logic" series by Jim Fay. I recommend it for any parent, but esp. parents who are survivors of growing up in abusive family. We might know we don't want to do the same thing to our own kids, but have no idea what TO do... what a non-abusive family life looks like. This book is almost like a blueprint. I love it.

 

[PDeverit]

"The much-touted 'biblical argument' in support of corporal punishment is founded upon proof-texting a few isolated passages from Proverbs. Using the same method of selective scripture reading, one could also cite the Bible as an authority for the practice of slavery, adultery, polygamy, incest, suppression of women, executing people who eat pork, and infanticide. The brutal and vindictive practice of corporal punishment cannot be reconciled with the major New Testament themes that teach love and forgiveness and a respect for the sacredness and dignity of children, and which overwhelmingly reject violence and retribution as a means of solving human problems. Would Jesus ever hit a child? NEVER!"
The Rev. Thomas E. Sagendorf, United Methodist Clergy (Retired), Hamilton, Indiana. Personal communication, 2006.

"If we really want a peaceful and compassionate world, we need to build communities of trust where all children are respected, where home and school are safe places to be and where discipline is taught by example."
Desmond M. Tutu, Archbishop Emeritus, Nobel Peace Prize recipient, Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children, 2006.

Ten Reasons I Can't Spank A Catholic Counselor's Critical Examination of Corporal Punishment By Gregory K. Popcak, MSW, LCSW

"I have always been an advocate for the total abolition of corporal punishment and I believe the connection with pornography that is so oriented has its roots in our tradition of beating children."
Gordon Moyes, D. D., Pastor, Uniting Church, Superintendent of the Wesley Central Mission, Sydney, Australia. Excerpt from personal communication, 1980.

"I have never accepted the principle of 'spare the rod and spoil the child.'... I am persuaded that violent fathers produce violent sons... Children don't need beating. They need love and encouragement. They need fathers to whom they can look with respect rather than fear. Above all, they need example."
Gordon B. Hinckley, President, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, October 1994 General Conference.

United Methodist Church:
UMC General Conference, May 3, 2004, takes a stand against corporal punishment in all settings.

Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps

Arms of Love: A grace based explanation of Biblical child rearing:

Nurturing God's Way

Churches Network for Nonviolence

Christian website about attachment parenting:

Matthew 19:8
Just because something is a long-standing tradition, doesn't mean it was ever right to begin with.

 

[PDeverit]

Good, quick reads recommended by professionals:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor MD and Adah Maurer PhD

(Can read online at website of Parents and Teachers Against Violence in Education)

 

[Etsi]

PD, the question was asked about the Orthodox stand on it.

 

[zhilan]

I think there are a few examples where I would def not hesitate to spank, for example, let's say I'm walking down the street with my (hypothetical) two year old starts to dash out into the street. I would grab him and give him a swat because he is not old enough to understand the logic of why it's dangerous for him to run off, he just needs to have a simple association that doing that brings pain. But I don't think it's the best for older kids and it shouldn't just be used in a bullying way where you win submission from the child because you are bigger and stronger.

 

[NyssaTheHobbit]

We were acquainted with an Orthodox family who did a lot of spanking, hitting, yelling, screaming, raging, cussing, etc. I knew them online before I knew them in person; I told one of them by e-mail that I was having trouble disciplining my toddler, that I didn't want to abuse him by spanking. He wrote back to the effect of, Abuse? Seriously? Then told me his father always spanked him three times, and that's what he does as well. At the time I thought this was a godly and devout person and figured that his childrearing advice would have some weight, especially since he had more experience with children than I did. So I adopted the three-spank rule. He would also recommend I spank a lot harder than I had been, that a child wouldn't take it seriously otherwise.

Now, however, since I've seen his family in real life and how the children are often treated, especially by the mother, and how badly they behave despite all the yelling and spanking--I've changed my mind about taking his advice. I've also read that one short, quick spank is considered to have no adverse effects on a child. I don't think three hard spanks would qualify.

I rarely have to spank my child now. He still gets naughty, but other things seem to work so much better. Mostly I put him into competition with himself: get dressed before I count to 20, that sort of thing. He's turning into a responsible boy who--at nearly 7--does his chores (sometimes without my asking), and does what the teacher tells him, so we must be doing something right. I follow the principle of no screaming (unless he's about to fall out a window), and no physical punishment other than one short, quick spank when necessary. I do hope this is a common Orthodox way of doing things.