Discipline of wifes?

[Miss Shy]

The priority would be on loving each other.

Yes I completely agree, that should in every relationship be the priority.

 

[chaoticfirefly]

Blind posting.

A husband and a wife should always be equal.

Edit:

More on the subject, I am a feminist. I am not "DEATH TO PATRIARCHY ALL MEN ARE TEH EVILLLL" but I believe that both men and women deserve EQUALITY. Everywhere. Yes, there are some things one gender can do that the other cannot and that is not a hindrance but a mere fact. And this...

....melts into marriage. A marriage is a partnership, two people joining together for their lifetime.

If I were to marry someone, and they expected me to be subservient and to "perform wifely duties", we will be in court before he could even give a protest. You wanna know why? I am his equal. I am his wife, his partner, HIS EQUAL. Nobody should have more power than they other in a relationship.

If my imaginary husband were to be beat me, screw the law, he'd be shot within a few seconds because I will not take that from another male. Not again.

A husband should love and respect his wife, as she should him. There is no subservience, no inequality. There shouldn't be. A wife should never abuse her husbands, and a husband should never abuse his wife. End of story.

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

I read an article suggesting that wifes MUST be disciplined by there husbands in order to learn how to be obediant. (I can't remember what the details were or where it was I read it because it was read when I was waiting somewhere.)

Now I have always assumed that a christian marriage should follow traditional lines and in this I don't intend to change my mind, eg man = leader, woman = helper/housewife. and that aswell as following these traditional roles the marriage should be one of mutual submission to one another, man = submits through listening, leading and giving to his wife and the woman = submits through helping, obeying, following. I believe there should be respect on both sides.

So I wondered, could anyone give me some advice as to which is right? should wives be disciplined or have I always assumed rightly?

Thank you

And show me where Jesus, who IS God, said wives should be beaten, and women should be submissive, for whenever I see instances of women in the Bible in Jesus's time on earth as a theophany of God in the flesh, I don't see women treated like they must be submissive.

To the contrary, there is Anna the prophetess leading and ministering upon those in Jerusalem, Jesus healing Peter's wife's mother who then ministers, Johanna and Susanna ministering, and possibly Mary Magdalene and other women ministering (though the last I am uncertain of the last example's context).

Further, when the angel appears to state Jesus has risen, he goes to the women first, who then go to the disciples. The disciples don't listen to them, but they should have for they were right. Further, Jesus tells the disciples to not be dismissive of the woman who puts a vial of fragrance over His head, and even states the example should be written as a memorial to her for all time. I never see any instance where Jesus treats women unequally or tells them to be submissive or inequal.

Moreover, John the baptist stated, "Do NO violence" in Luke before he baptizes Jesus in the river.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I read an article suggesting that wifes MUST be disciplined by there husbands in order to learn how to be obediant. (I can't remember what the details were or where it was I read it because it was read when I was waiting somewhere.)

Now I have always assumed that a christian marriage should follow traditional lines and in this I don't intend to change my mind, eg man = leader, woman = helper/housewife. and that aswell as following these traditional roles the marriage should be one of mutual submission to one another, man = submits through listening, leading and giving to his wife and the woman = submits through helping, obeying, following. I believe there should be respect on both sides.

So I wondered, could anyone give me some advice as to which is right? should wives be disciplined or have I always assumed rightly?

Thank you

A wife (or g/f) isnt like a Dog that needs to be disciplined by the Man -- this would be called Ruling with an Iron Hand...and it is the catalyst for resentment / disrespect / and feeling emotionally abused on the part of the Woman. The Bible refers to this as 'lording it over another' . It is very wrong , is not the way of Christ , and God doesnt believe in harsh male dominance in a relationship in the least.

The way of Christ is for the man to LOVE his wife as Christ loved the church...and Christ loved it so much that he died a horrible humiliating death . The whole idea behing harmony in a relationship with the opposite sex, is based on the Man being gentle, loving, protecting, honoring and if this is being adequately carried out...then the woman will want to respond in returning her love to the man and a very harmonious relationship will be had. Love is the answer .. not 'ruling' .

Did that help any ?

 

[OntheHorizon]

The issue is the man being in charge part. Alot of people get around that by being KIND while in charge but iit isnt it simply biblical sexism? Is anyone else willing to consider that maybe paul was speaking of himself and just wrong? I wish we had more bible to read and more authors. Its sad that we have to live our lives off of what can be read in a week or two.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

The issue is the man being in charge part. Alot of people get around that by being KIND while in charge but iit isnt it simply biblical sexism? Is anyone else willing to consider that maybe paul was speaking of himself and just wrong? I wish we had more bible to read and more authors. Its sad that we have to live our lives off of what can be read in a week or two.

If Paul was 'wrong' in his teachings...then Jesus telling us the entire Word of God (the OT and the NT to come) was the ultimate truth, is invalidated. The BIble gives us enough solid information on how marital relationships need to work according to Gods ideals. Now, the ball is in OUR court to do it without allowing personal pride stand in the way .

God has ordained the Husband to be a certain way based on how he has wired Man , and he has done the same for the Wife. It is based on the umbrella of love/respect/honor both ways ... and not based on whos 'more important' in the marital union . Gods idea was to make a UNIT out of one husband and one wife thru the messing of their fundamental wiring , with the goal of reflecting the harmony of the Godhead --- any marriage that seeks and fulfills this goal is a marriage God will bless and a marriage that will bring lasting fulfullment . Offspring resulting from such modeling, will have a profound effect also., with the legacy hopefully continuing. Its all pretty counter to what our Culture dictates isnt it ? The 'wisdom of man' is foolishness to God.

 

[OntheHorizon]

Where did anyone except Paul say men are in charge and Over the women in marraige? Who else TAUGHT hiearchy in marriage?

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Where did anyone except Paul say men are in charge and Over the women in marraige? Who else TAUGHT hiearchy in marriage?

What does it matter ? Dont you believe that Pauls teachings are the Word of God ? They are.

The kind of 'higher hiearcy' in marriage that Paul spoke of was not the military type , but was quite the contrary . Here, for instance :


The Bible is very clear that all who are fulfilling the task given to them are equal, regardless of role–not equal in terms of sameness, but in terms of honor, value, and necessity.

Paul describes this in 1 Corinthians 12:14-26:

For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you;” or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Grudem points out that our model for this view of equality within hierarchical relationships is the Trinity. There is certainly no greater example for us than this! If Christ, though He is the exact representation of the Father–equal in character, power, and glory, submits to the Father with joy, who am I to say such a thing is beneath me?

A good leader sacrifices himself.

Hierarchy within marriage must also be viewed in the context of Ephesians 5:25-30:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.

Christ gave His very life for the good of the church, and a husband is to lead with this same willingness to die–not only literally, but also figuratively every day in order to properly nourish and cherish his wife and family.

A good leader is a humble servant.

Women often reject submission because they fear the domination and oppression they're sure will come. Sometimes, of course, it does. But these things have no place in a Christian hierarchy. Jesus, who wrapped a towel around His waist and washed His disciples' feet, is our model in this, and he not only condemned oppressive leadership but went a step further, calling for leaders to lower themselves below those whom they lead in order to lift them up. See His words in Luke 22:25-27:

The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called 'Benefactors.' But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

What man would not be drawn to the chivalry of this vision of leadership I've described? And what woman would not respect such a man?

Women, men want to lead. And I've been told by some men that, even more than that, they need to lead. I think this is because they've been created to do so. Men, women fear this because we're always conscious of the fact that you are stronger than we are. You have the power to hurt us or to dismiss us as nothing. Because of this, when you do not take advantage of our weakness, but instead value us (and our contributions) as equals, sacrifice yourselves for us, and humbly kneel down so you can lift us up, you have no idea what this means to us, and there's nothing we wouldn't do to support you.

 

[OntheHorizon]

I think it matters because it allows me to conclude he was being cultural to HIS people in HIS time and that sexism is sexism and the rest of the bible remains in tact.

It doesnt matter how loving the hiearchy is... its still hiearchy and i am not a superior being as a man nor do i deserve to be OVER my wife.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I think it matters because it allows me to conclude he was being cultural to HIS people in HIS time and that sexism is sexism and the rest of the bible remains in tact.

It doesnt matter how loving the hiearchy is... its still hiearchy and i am not a superior being as a man nor do i deserve to be OVER my wife.

I dont see Pauls admonition regarding marital partners just for his culture ; I see it as Gods wisdom and ideal for all generations , for, its the recipe for a well functioning Marriage Union . I think you are seeing it in a wrong light if you think Pauls is preaching sexism -- he is simply stating Gods ideal for order and maximized harmony in the marital relationship . Futher, he isnt promoting a military type of control and overseeing either ; but the Husband IS supposed to be doing certain things within the marriage and the Wife likewise --- equality is the resounding message found in Pauls teachings on marriage .

 

[OntheHorizon]

Well Paul said men are a womans head in the same sense that God is ours and when Paul taught Timothy that women cant teach men his reasons were that men were made first and women was the one deceived becoming the trangressor. It wasnt just for order... he clearly believed they were different in more than just skills. Hiearchy concerns authority inherently. Right?

Paul was advocating love... not equality just as jesus loved us but we are not equal and that was his picture for marriage.

 

[OntheHorizon]

If you say Paul only advocated different jobs... the job of Leadership and decision making clearly shows that no he wasnt.

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

If Paul was 'wrong' in his teachings...then Jesus telling us the entire Word of God (the OT and the NT to come) was the ultimate truth, is invalidated.

JESUS's words, GOD's words, and commandments are NEVER "invalidated." As Jesus states, "Heaven and Earth may die away, but my words will never die away." Luke 21:33. Jesus's, WHO IS GOD, example and words will never pass away. Further He states, "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." Luke 16:17.

Jesus says to FOLLOW HIM 23 times. He also states, "If you love me, you will follow my commandments" in John.

Jesus also states, "Neither be ye called masters, for there is ONE master, Christ." This is also repeated when He states, "You cannot serve two masters... you will either love one, or hate the other... You cannot serve both God and mammon."

Clearly, Jesus, who is God, is the ultimate authority. Does this mean you think whenever Jesus corrected His followers and disciples it somehow "invalidated" His laws? E.g., He states to Peter, "No more of this!" when Peter cuts off a servant's ear, and "Those who wield the sword, die by the sword." He also is shown being displeased and correcting His disciples when they turn children away from Him, and He tells them to not turn children away from Him and those who receive His name in children, having them believe in Him are blessed. He often corrects them throughout.

JESUS, who is God appearing in the flesh as a theophany, is to be listened to FIRST AND FOREMOST. Why else would He state "Neither be ye called masters, for their is ONE, master, Christ" and correct His followers? ONLY JESUS IS THE PERFECT, SINLESS example to follow. No else are perfect or without sin. Only God is perfect and without sin.

The BIble gives us enough solid information on how marital relationships need to work according to Gods ideals. Now, the ball is in OUR court to do it without allowing personal pride stand in the way .

Show me where Jesus, who said "FOLLOW ME" 23 times, said women should be beaten and be submissive? I see none of this in His PERFECT, SINLESS example. TO the contrary, they are shown as leading and treated as equal.

God has ordained the Husband to be a certain way based on how he has wired Man , and he has done the same for the Wife. It is based on the umbrella of love/respect/honor both ways ... and not based on whos 'more important' in the marital union . Gods idea was to make a UNIT out of one husband and one wife thru the messing of their fundamental wiring , with the goal of reflecting the harmony of the Godhead --- any marriage that seeks and fulfills this goal is a marriage God will bless and a marriage that will bring lasting fulfullment . Offspring resulting from such modeling, will have a profound effect also., with the legacy hopefully continuing. Its all pretty counter to what our Culture dictates isnt it ? The 'wisdom of man' is foolishness to God.

Jesus states "I AM the father, " "Before Abraham was, I AM," "The father and I are one."

Jesus IS GOD, He is the ultimate one to listen to. Further He writes, "You have heard before, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you when you face evil, turn the other cheek." Jesus often writes on what has happened before and states how we to follow His PERFECT, SINLESS theophany (appearance of God) to us. It is an appearance as God's back (the flesh) was shown to Moses after seeing the burning bush and Jacob wrestled with a man and saw God "Face to face." It is a theophany and JESUS is the center of CHRISTiantity, hence, the term CHRIST in the name.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

The issue is the man being in charge part. Alot of people get around that by being KIND while in charge but iit isnt it simply biblical sexism?

What is sexcism really? Who can say what it is? Its not a temd GOd invented. Its a man made term. And widely use by feminists. Which is why they attack christianity for not understanding what it means to be submissive or for the man to lead. All they think of it means slave. But thats now what it means.

Is anyone else willing to consider that maybe paul was speaking of himself and just wrong? I wish we had more bible to read and more authors. Its sad that we have to live our lives off of what can be read in a week or two.

Well if its wrong then you are calling God wrong since he says the Word is truth. Everything in the bible God let it be put there because it is truth.

I think it matters because it allows me to conclude he was being cultural to HIS people in HIS time and that sexism is sexism and the rest of the bible remains in tact.

It doesnt matter how loving the hiearchy is... its still hiearchy and i am not a superior being as a man nor do i deserve to be OVER my wife.

Now. A man is the head just as Christ is the head of his brides (us) or his family. Its why we call him Father. He leads us in the right direction, protects us...etc. This is why husbands do the same. And just as God doesn't abuse his power to be the Head, we to as men aren't suppose to abuse it. We are "spiritual leaders" really for our family. So if a husband is not shining as an example of Christ, then hes not leading right.

Again I think your listening to what the world says about what they think submission is. Your not listening to what God says submission is. Of course the world will try to corrupt us of what the Bible tells us. But who do we believe. God or man? God of course.

As stated man for lack of better words is not above woman. He does not rule her with an iron fist. Hes simply "the head" of the family. Which is very different from being above woman. Woman still has free will, she can make decisions too. We don't tell her when to sleep, when to pee, what to eat...etc. We guide her as best as we can, she doens't have to listen because we are not masters over a slave.

But lets not forget we don't simply tell her what we think is right. We have to pray to God about it because maybe something we think is actually wrong. If you are to be the head you must accept GOd is YOUR head. To some degree husband and wife have a mutual submission. Two become on flesh. Its not mine and yours.

 

[OntheHorizon]

We guide her as best as we can...

...

Sexism isn't a problem that the feminists conjured up and CLAIM exists... I promise.

 

[Lilly Owl]

And none of that pertains to disciplining your wife . . .

Right.

Just like there's nothing in these scriptures either. Domestic Discipline

 

[Lilly Owl]

Is Domestic Discipline Scripture Based?

 

[OntheHorizon]

xfreakazoidx

I'm sorry but really? Why in the world would you think that it's your place to guide a woman because you're a man? What non sexist idea supports that? What non sexist idea supports the female sex being the pupils and followers and supporters of men?

 

[OntheHorizon]

xfreakazoidx

Our bible is a collection of books written by men and then a bunch of very early church fathers choose which books were from God and which books were not and they put the books they believed in together and called it the finished voice of God on earth and now if God REALLY DID speak to a human being again and told him to write something down the Christian community would NEVER EVER accept it as inspired because they believe every last thing in our bible is and that nothing else could ever ever be.

It is impossible for God to speak to us again objectively, absolutely impossible and if any single word in that book is a mistake it is absolutely impossible for us to ever learn that. Do you see the problem we've created for ourselves? Jesus was not present to confirm the writings of Paul or Peter or every other so called prophet to come, a lot of those books were rejected from the bible by our best wisdom. Some of these books were written by men who quarreled with one another like Peter and Paul.

I AM NOT SAYING THE BIBLE IS NOT INSPIRED BY GOD!

But think for a second.. is IT not possible that maybe Paul was talking culture, not God?

 

[CounselorForChrist]

I stopped reading after the beginning response of your last reply. I know we all question scriptures at times. And for some Paul is questioned alot. But to even hint that you don't think the books are Gods Word just rubs me the wrong way. I heard that alot when I would hang around atheists to debate them.

TO answer one point you made about Jesus not being around to write them. Where does it say Jesus had to be around? God can work through people, inspire them to write what He wants them to. The Holy Spirit. For example if God is truly as perfect as He says He is. Then wouldn't He be able to do that what I stated above? After all he knew about the bible being created probably before He even created the universe.

I guess for me the Bible, heck even christianity only had two sides you can take. And that is believe everything about it, or don't. So if you don't believe even 1% of it then in my book you don't believe the rest to degree. Or may not in the future. I believe every word in the Bible. However I also realize its been translated so much that maybe the wrong words are used after awhile. But its why we have the original stuff to go by (for those who speak the language).

This is why I think we argue the most as christians. Because there are to many translations with pretty varying wording that changes to much. I've seen so many verses that could be taken 10 different ways depending on which version you read it from. So as I said I think its the amount of translations that cause some to question the bible. They forget that.

And while I get what your saying about the culture thing. If that was true then God wouldn't of had it be part of the bible as it is today. Some say "How are you sure?". I say Hes God. He could do whatever He wants really. He could have easily had the stuff written by paul be burned up in a fire or destroyed by water. But he didn't because it was meant to be in the bible.

Granted again that when you think about the kind of process He would have to go through to line things up so someone would write it, then discover it later, then make it into the modern bible...its alot of work to think about. But thats why He is God. We can't really understand the ways He works in.