Discerning truth

[Gracchus]

How does one determine truth or facts about a spiritual, non-physical being or idea?

The same way one determines the architecture of the house of the three bears that Goldilocks visited.

 

[truth_not_allowed]

Many Christians disagree about many different things, including things like what is essential for salvation (which, really, one would think would be a rather important issue).

As Sad Clown pointed out, however, my question is wider than that.

Let's say I'm not affiliated with a religion and am looking to discern truth about metaphysics and deities. If a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hellenic Pagan, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Taoist, Bahai, Scientologist, and Jehova's Witness each tell me a different view of how the world works and the nature of god, how should I discern which, if any of them, is telling me the truth?

Where do you believe is the fundamental starting point to begin with in search of truth of a divine being or idea? What methods work to discern who is telling me the truth, and who doesn't know what he or she is talking about?

-Lyn

Try something simple like....... Truth finds no offense......

It is true that you could argue that truth is subjective and anyone could find offense within any single belief. What you then have to ask is where the offense is found. Is it offensive to the person because of what they personally believe or offensive solely because of what the other believes?

In the infinite expanse of the universe, what absolute exists but the one we alone have created in order to provide measure?

 

[Penumbra]

Well hey, you're not on Muslim Forums
You're on Christian Forums....maybe God is trying to tell you something

I'm on a number of forums so that I can talk to many different types of people. I especially enjoy discussing things with Hindus and Buddhists.

Christian forums is particularly nice because it's so large and so has some Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Atheists, and Agnostics in addition to just Christians, so it's kind of like the Wal-Mart of religious forums (I can just go to one place and get quite a bit). There are other forums that combine religions, though the post rate is often lower due to lower population.

As I stated above, all reasoning is presupposition extrapolated.
Even sound reasoning is just presupposition extrapolated logically,
even God's reasoning.
Since God has no sequence of ideas, one could say that all of God's ideas are presuppositions.

In other words, everyone has a starting point, no one is objective.
Everyone is either sovereign or subjective, necessary or contingent.

I started a thread called "No Chance". It will explain how I am left with the belief that God is sovereign.

As for who and how and what they read and yada and dada:
I am left to believe that God works all things together for His good for those who He has love Him, those He has called according to His purpose.
For the rest, it's fatal.

So basically what you're saying is that you believe in predestination?

God will lead those to the truth that he wishes to, and will not lead those to truth for those he does not care about?

The same way one determines the architecture of the house of the three bears that Goldilocks visited.

Are you saying that because you believe there are no supernatural beings or ideas (much like the three bears house does not exist), or are you saying that it's impossible even though those things might exist?

Try something simple like....... Truth finds no offense......

It is true that you could argue that truth is subjective and anyone could find offense within any single belief. What you then have to ask is where the offense is found. Is it offensive to the person because of what they personally believe or offensive solely because of what the other believes?

In the infinite expanse of the universe, what absolute exists but the one we alone have created in order to provide measure?

An issue here is that I have met many people from various religions that are calm, cool, collected, and do not find offense in what others say. Yet, many of them believe things contradictory to others that also find no offense.

Which absolute are you talking about that we have created to provide measure? The scientific method, or something different?

-Lyn

 

[truth_not_allowed]

An issue here is that I have met many people from various religions that are calm, cool, collected, and do not find offense in what others say. Yet, many of them believe things contradictory to others that also find no offense.

Which absolute are you talking about that we have created to provide measure? The scientific method, or something different?

-Lyn

Are we simply scratching at the surface of things?
Yes, it is very possible to be calm and collected when discussing a belief, even when it is believed that the person is destined for the infinite torture of hell.
It is however, impossible not to find this person that is destined for hell offensive.
Is it the belief alone that creates such offense?
It is very easy to conclude that, without the belief that adheres to such an absolute, it would be impossible to find an offense.
In the example, God provides something contrary to this believed "truth" by which we are able to find offense.
There is a distinct difference between the appearance of things and the substance of a belief.

I think Marcus Garvey said it the best when appealing to minds in order to find freedom for his people..... The interesting thing when finding truth is that it applies wherever one chooses to use it, not just to fit a single cause..... Truth seems to fit the cause of the entire of humanity.

I feel it my duty to make a real appeal to conscience and not to belief. Conscience is solid, convicting and permanently demonstrative; belief is only a matter of opinion, changeable by superior reasoning.

 

[truth_not_allowed]

As much as we might desire to sugarcoat a belief, it is impossible to believe you are correct when ascribing to an absolute and not view another belief concerning a contrary absolute as being inferior. OOOPS, instant offense!

I have searched every aspect of life and have been unable to find a single absolute, likewise it is impossible for me to view a single life being inferior to my own.

I consider an infinite universe focally brilliant, it keeps me within my own mind. I see no need to create a single offense within it.

 

[UnionJack]

As much as we might desire to sugarcoat a belief, it is impossible to believe you are correct when ascribing to an absolute and not view another belief concerning a contrary absolute as being inferior. OOOPS, instant offense!

I have searched every aspect of life and have been unable to find a single absolute, likewise it is impossible for me to view a single life being inferior to my own.

I consider an infinite universe focally brilliant, it keeps me within my own mind. I see no need to create a single offense within it.

If you dont mind me asking how long will you spend as a seeker?

 

[truth_not_allowed]

If you dont mind me asking how long will you spend as a seeker?

At what point are you suggesting I have not found exactly what I have been searching for?

Is it my mind that I am searching, or yours?

To answer the question, perhaps it is all dependent upon you.

 

[UnionJack]

If you have found what you have been looking for, you are no longer a seeker.

You'd have picked a religion or chosen to be atheist, which you have not.

This leads me to believe you are still seeking.

 

[truth_not_allowed]

If you have found what you have been looking for, you are no longer a seeker.

You'd have picked a religion or chosen to be atheist, which you have not.

This leads me to believe you are still seeking.

There is nobody else that could possibly define me, I can't choose to be someone else. To suggest that I am able to adhere to somebody else's definition is highly constrictive and extremely offensive to every aspect of my being.
To force me into a choice that was never mine concerning a belief, a title or mode of expression is your offense.

 

[Gracchus]

How does one determine truth or facts about a spiritual, non-physical being or idea?

The same way one determines the architecture of the house of the three bears that Goldilocks visited.

Are you saying that because you believe there are no supernatural beings or ideas (much like the three bears house does not exist), or are you saying that it's impossible even though those things might exist?

Either way, it is pure speculation, and very dangerous. Christians, very early on, started killing each other over such points as whether the Son was of the same undetectable substance as the Father (homoousion) or of a similar substance (homoiousion). They were murdering and damning each other over things that no one could even demonstrate were real! It got so bad that the government stepped in and called the Council of Nicea. They decided that point, and a number of other points, equally nonsensical, and began to punish dissenters very harshly indeed.

What methods work?

The method adopted by Christianity was to convince the opposition by any means necessary, starting with persuasion, and progressing through torture to capital punishment and "Holy War".

What methods do not work?

It turns out that no matter how hard you try, you can’t get people to agree about postulated undetectable phenomena. That is why there are thousands of Christian sects today, and even within sects there is much disagreement. (It occurs to me that perhaps the Tower of Babel wasn’t so much a confusion of language as about a confusion of unverifiable theology.)

For instance, if two people have two contradicting god concepts, how can a third party determine if either one of them is accurate?

You might start off by discarding any concept that doesn’t make sense, any concept that is an outrage to reason, and any concept that is contrary to observation.

Garbage in, garbage out, or as Voltaire put it, "It is because we believe absurdities that we are able to commit atrocities." From Christianity we have had two thousand years of atrocities, and from Islam, over a thousand years of horror, all in the name of God.


"He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?" --- Micah 6:8

If your religion goes much beyond that, you are almost certainly wrong.

 

[UnionJack]

If you have found what you have been looking for, you are no longer a seeker.

You'd have picked a religion or chosen to be atheist, which you have not.

This leads me to believe you are still seeking.

I did not think logic could offend anyone. But if you feel insulted I apologize that was not my intent.

 

[truth_not_allowed]

I did not think logic could offend anyone. But if you feel insulted I apologize that was not my intent.

There is a much deeper aspect of offense that grows exponentially as one examines further.
It is impossible for me to accept Jesus as my savior in an infinite number of lives....... As you have concluded by your definition, I am a seeker.

Are you a Christian?
Am I destined for the eternal torture of hell through your belief?

We are not discussing intent here, I don't have any reason to doubt your intent; but the lesson to be examined is that through your belief you are left with nothing more than doubt concerning all of mine. It makes no difference the innocence of my intent or what I could possibly accomplish for humanity through it.
Wouldn't logic show that eternal torture is an absurd response to my apparent search?

 

[UnionJack]

IMO people shouldn't focus on hell too much when they are considering Christianity....I think it tends to drive people away from the religion. I mean who would want to get involved in something that could end up so disastrous.

Yes I am a Christian and yes you are destined for 10 million ++ years of unimaginable pain if you never accept Jesus, but you shouldn't convert to a religion out of fear in case their right.

To answer your last question it depends who you're asking. From a Christian's point of view it is very logical that you be punished for not accepting Christ in your lifetime and from someone elses point of view it may not be.

 

[truth_not_allowed]

IMO people shouldn't focus on hell too much when they are considering Christianity....I think it tends to drive people away from the religion. I mean who would want to get involved in something that could end up so disastrous.

Yes I am a Christian and yes you are destined for 10 million ++ years of unimaginable pain if you never accept Jesus, but you shouldn't convert to a religion out of fear in case their right.

To answer your last question it depends who you're asking. From a Christian's point of view it is very logical that you be punished for not accepting Christ in your lifetime and from someone elses point of view it may not be.

Well then, lets investigate this logic in order to fully understand what is being asked of us by God.
Take a walk in my shoes for a moment.....
You were born from my parents and every experience and influence is identical to mine.
In my experience of life and it's influences, I could never accept Jesus as my saviour.
Walking in my shoes, do you accept Jesus?
Why?

Even if you are correct in the acceptance of Jesus, it does not change the fact that my experience and influences deny me the ability to do so. If God knows that the experiences within my life would produce this exact response, the impossible conundrum is that God never wanted acceptance from this mind, that I have been discarded from the moment of conception.
Punishment is absurd in this example and the greatest reason I am unable to accept Jesus...... God isn't very good at this logic thing.

 

[UnionJack]

The Bible tells us that it is a gift to those who are born and are just able to accept Jesus without any doubts. Some are not as fortunate and struggle with this and even though they want to believe they just cannot get themselves to accept that it is true.

You are telling me with absolute certainty that never in your lifetime will you accept Jesus. Not because you are unwilling to but because you are unable to due to your past experiences and influences. It seems like a private issue so I won't bug you about it but I can't wrap my mind around anything that would permenatley prevent you from accepting Jesus.

The closest thing I can think of is a death in the family. I have read posts in this forum of how people almost lose their faith when friends and family passed away and ask where was God when they needed help? How could God do such a thing? Well the answer to that is: He was there the very whole time, just like when His own son was dying on the cross.


But let us say hypothetically you are able to put your past experiences behind you, would you believe there is a God?

 

[UnionJack]

Sorry double post but I had to look this up.

Regarding the acceptance of Jesus:

And He said unto them, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature."
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:15-16 KJV

Now this you already know but...you asked: "Wouldn't logic show that eternal torture is an absurd response to my apparent search?" What's logical is that you can only live in Heaven with God if you've believed in him. It would be absurd to be given the privilege of spending eternity with a Creator you never believe existed. Not to mention awkward. So logically speaking, you would not live with him and would be send to the alternative location.

 

[SUM]

I notice you say "close" to impossible instead of dismissing such an event as completely impossible.

I am interested, then, in what information or evidence would convince you about the accuracy of a statement about spiritual beings or ideas.

-Lyn

I’m not completely closed off to the idea of some sort of afterlife. I’ve actually been working on a thread topic idea about this (just a thought experiment) so I won’t go into great detail here. I believe that all religions have it wrong however I will say that it is possible not probable but possible that energy from a persons body may continue on after death although I am extremely skeptical. Energy can not be destroyed as far as we know, the question is can that energy retain a conscious? I know this is a crazy thought for an atheist. To answer your question, I’m not sure if there could be any evidence that would convince me. Even if a deity came floating down on a cloud right here in my living room he better have some I.D. because I would still have a hard time believing.

 

[Norbert L]

How does one determine truth or facts about a spiritual, non-physical being or idea?

What methods work?
What methods do not work?

For instance, if two people have two contradicting god concepts, how can a third party determine if either one of them is accurate?

Thanks,

-Lyn

It would take the fourth party, the one under discussion to have that answer. A living God of gods would have His own concepts about everything would He not? And that would include how a third party will be able to determine what is correct.

Basically in the simpliest of terms it would need revelation by Him which is somewhat like how scientific inspiration works. As an example before Eistein could figure out E=MC2 (can't type 2 in the square position), he would have needed to comprehend what E is, what = is, what M is and so on. Otherwise he would of never have been able to put things together properly.

Likewise direct revelation from God is needed to start the process of determining what the truth or facts are about a spiritual, non-physical being or idea.

Here is a rather interesting web page that explores this process in much greater depth. Be warned however this person writes a few levels higher than what your going to read in a Reader's Digest.

How I would decide between conflicting revelations (Part One)

 

[Penumbra]

IMO people shouldn't focus on hell too much when they are considering Christianity....I think it tends to drive people away from the religion. I mean who would want to get involved in something that could end up so disastrous.

Yes I am a Christian and yes you are destined for 10 million ++ years of unimaginable pain if you never accept Jesus, but you shouldn't convert to a religion out of fear in case their right.

To answer your last question it depends who you're asking. From a Christian's point of view it is very logical that you be punished for not accepting Christ in your lifetime and from someone elses point of view it may not be.

I disagree with your first statement- I think the concept of hell should be looked at very closely in any religion, because it gives one an idea of the personality of the god of that religion, and gives an idea of what kind of conscience someone in that religion must have to flourish in that religion.

What's logical is that you can only live in Heaven with God if you've believed in him. It would be absurd to be given the privilege of spending eternity with a Creator you never believe existed. Not to mention awkward. So logically speaking, you would not live with him and would be send to the alternative location.

What you call logic here is relative.

You say that it's logical to only live in heaven with a god if you've believed in him.
My logic tells me that an unimaginably powerful and wise being would have little to no concern about what mortals believe about him, would not feel any sort of resentment, already knows their mind and understands why they don't believe in the first place, and is generally above any sort of jealous behavior. In addition, if this being had desire to convince people of something, it should be absurdly easy for him to do so, to the point where it would be done in a heartbeat if he so willed it.

-Lyn

 

[Penumbra]

I’m not completely closed off to the idea of some sort of afterlife. I’ve actually been working on a thread topic idea about this (just a thought experiment) so I won’t go into great detail here. I believe that all religions have it wrong however I will say that it is possible not probable but possible that energy from a persons body may continue on after death although I am extremely skeptical. Energy can not be destroyed as far as we know, the question is can that energy retain a conscious? I know this is a crazy thought for an atheist.

For me to believe that energy can retain a consciousness, someone would have to describe and prove a mechanism about how it does so.

To answer your question, I’m not sure if there could be any evidence that would convince me. Even if a deity came floating down on a cloud right here in my living room he better have some I.D. because I would still have a hard time believing.

Yes, this is reasonable. For instance, if an incredibly powerful extra terrestrial being came to Earth and, through either superior biology or technology, has the ability to telepathically communicate with any and all lifeforms (like people), can perform things so awe-inspiring that it makes our technological power look like a joke, has wisdom from all throughout the universe, and claimed that it was god, I'm sure millions or billions of people would accept that.

-Lyn