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Disagreements with...Christians

grandvizier1006

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I'm currently enrolled in a highschool/college online program thing that's supposed to be Christian. It's complicated to explain, and when people ask "Where do you go to school nowadays?" It's awkward because I have to say, "I'm taking classes online".

But that's not the full story. I'm taking classes online...primarily meant for homeschoolers.

For background, I was never homeschooled. I'm from the Southeastern US, where everybody's a cultural Christian. So for elementary school I was able to go to a "Christian" school and everything was fine. In middle and high school I went to a school that was more secular but gave lip service to Christianity, being in the South where such things are sort of required by cultural consensus. I got put into this program due to some of my behaviorial issues and academic stress.

So you'd think we'd have pretty much the same values, right? Well, for the most part, yes. But where we disagree has brought difficulties. I'm not in danger of being kicked out for having the "wrong" views, but it's led to some heated debates in the past. I think it mainly stems from the fact that as homeschoolers, they're taught differently from what I've been taught and they never really had to "discern" messages given to them. Like they believe everything they hear because they've never been given "wrong" wisdom. And yet they seem pretty normal, it's just that I'm in a minority opinion.

The thing is, I used to be this staunch conservative in high school, but getting out of that environment made me more moderate. On top of that, I finally came to Christ for real, rather than just being a cultural Christian, and despite having gotten out of a depression based on being lonely, I'm glad that I wasn't the "conservative" I was before (I would have just been an embarrassment to real conservatives).

Here's a good list of our disagreements:

1. They're homeschooled, like I said before. That means that they know all about co-ops, youth groups, and...courting. And I think some of them like Quiverfull and have 8 or so siblings, which I think is just an absurd amount of children. And all based on ONE VERSE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT!!:doh:

2.They are young-earth creationists. I eventually decided to take the view of theistic evolution since I found it to be more sound than young-earth creationism. Hearing about its origins with Ellen White helped solidify this view. After Christmas break the class has to basically criticize evolution, so this is sort of a sticky situation for me.

3.They believe the Crusades and other related events were "the will of God". Yes, I know, history tells us that the Crusades made the Byzantine Empire weaker and the Ottomans conquered them more easily because the West had weakened them. But that's not what they were taught. It's a similar story with stuff like Columbus and Cortes. They think that even though the leaders may have behaved a bit inappropriately, they still prefer to whitewash them and accuse anyone who wants to criticize them as just trying to discredit Christianity. Personally, I think it's best to be objective about history, but instead they want to give what they think is "a biblical view", which basically translates to saying that any criticisms of this or that event in which Christians look bad are mostly unfounded. Sometimes they have good points with this (I agree in that secular academia has definitely whitewashed Islam and is unfair to Christianity), but I think it's wrong to respond to a double standard with ANOTHER double standard.

4. They make us do projects criticizing other religions. I don't have a problem with this per se, and I understand the point of it. But sometimes the criticisms seem to be nothing more than "This religion is bad because it isn't like Christianity", and other forms of circular reasoning. I would rather criticize doctrines, theology, and the outcomes of adhering to these things. They'd take that, too, but sometimes it seems like they will get wrapped up in saying that this or that is just superstitious. Like it's more, "THEY BELIEVE IN DEMONS!" or, "the Bible says not to do this thing that they're doing!" Well, DUH. :doh: And plus, saying that "the Biblical worldview is superior" just seems arrogant to me. I'd rather say "more satisfying" because I believe that's true, as a Christian.

5. They are (almost) all WASPS. This all fine by me, but what it leads to for these people is this sense that "Western civilization is 'Christian'. Western civ. is 'the best' because its people are Christians"...well, what about the other people in the world? Are there no Christians outside the Anglo-sphere? That's not literally true, of course, but it's just arrogant to assume that just because England and America were prosperous that it's because they were Christian, or that God has "blessed" America/England. So, He's blessed JUST THEM and NO ONE ELSE (but Israel)?!?! And you can't just assume that the Anglosphere has been 100% Christian all the time! What about all the times that the West WASN'T being very Christian. Hypocrisy on the part of a society is kind of inevitable. I, on the other hand, am cautious about idealizing and whitewashing parts of history. It's just dishonest. As a Southerner, I know that even though my culture is nominally Christian, that doesn't make us perfect or blessed. We're poor, have the highest drunk driving and teen pregnancy rates in the country, etc. We have a Christian consensus, but how come WE aren't on top in our nation? Where's our blessing? Oh, wait, that's right. That's not how God operates anymore!:doh:

6. They're all these staunch conservatives (like I used to be). It's just repugnant, hearing them say, "Oh, I agree with you, we Christians shouldn't take sides in politics", and then say in the same breath, "Those liberals are so sinful and evil! Christians should all vote Republican!" And they seem to think that Christians NEED to get into politics. No, they don't! I was "into politics" for a while, and it drove me insane and made me bitter and depressed. I will never go back into politics again!

I'd love some non-American Christians to opine on this last one.ard Christians in Europe especially are kind of "undercover" and aren't moralists. Well, we Americans like to pretend that Christians who do that either don't exist or aren't "real" Christians at all. I'm sorry for our America-centrism. :( Also, Christians everywhere in the Eastern Hemisphere, I'm sorry that we're not doing enough. Instead of helping you we're just staying in our country, ranting about the horrors of abortion and gay marriage, like they're the most sinful things EVER. I'm also sorry that we're ignorant of our faith's roots and history.

7. (Most of them) are strict Protestants. The kind that think their denomination is the "most true" and hail Martin Luther as a hero, in some sense of the word. They acknowledged his anger issues and anti-Semitism, but it was sort of that idea that saintly intercession, monasticism, icon veneration, etc. should not be practiced because it is "un-Biblical". I've learned that there are true Christians all over the denominations, and while they'd admit such as well they'd probably say something like, "but the Protestants are the most Biblical!" They seem to see Protestant individuals as extensions of the Bible, but they'd never literally say this.

And of course as the person with the minority opinion, it's always my fault for stirring up disagreements. It's never anything serious, but I highly doubt any of them would have the gall to apologize for their words or actions. I've had to do it my whole life, and they get off scot-free because they're "good Christians".

How should I deal with these people? The worst part is that the programs exams will be like, "List five good things about the Crusades", or "Say how the Bible supports capitalism" (I didn't even talk about how much they think that capitalism is "supported by the Bible", but you can see how stupid that idea is :doh:). Basically, they ask me to give THEIR opinion on some view, like it's the ONLY opinion a Christian can have on the subject. They wouldn't silence me, but when there's one specific view being endorsed by the tests, and I get a bad grade for not answering THEIR WAY, then you can see what the problem is.

It's just tough dealing with these people, my classmates and the teachers in this. On one hand my faith has really been strengthened by these challenges, and I don't think I'd be a legit Christian today if it weren't for this program, but at the same time I don't want to be forced to think their way. I can't. I'm a Christian, just not their brand of Christian.
 
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grandvizier1006

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Oh, believe me, I'd love to try doing that, but I keep hearing all of these verses about not being in conflict with other believers and being a unified body in Christ, and keep wondering, "Do I have to change my views for the sake of the majority?" I don't want to lie and say that I agree with them when I don't.
 
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BFine

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You don't have to lie, stand on God's Word...if what others
are saying or doing don't agree with the Word of God--
then cleave to what God's Word says.

Don't argue with them-- point them to truth, if they reject
it...that is their choice. Remember-- people rejected what
Jesus said also.
 
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grandvizier1006

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After getting a fairly reasonable call-out from my only friend in the group (who understands my issues with these sorts of things although she has the same views as everyone else), I've realized that it's not entirely their fault.

Like I said in my earlier post, I used to be sort of a "staunch conservative". Looking back, I was basically a bigot and saw everything remotely "liberal" as a threat to my Christian faith--which I didn't actually have. Stupid? Yes, it was. But I got out of that phase. Or so I thought.

We just had one of our classes where they were giving their usual spiel, and I was basically disagreeing and maybe disrupting things. I just don't know, really, it's online and it's hard to explain how the program works but basically, but to put it simply one of the more pro-American Christian students (who is several years younger than me, I might add) was offended because I was criticizing her points of view, and pointed out how she never criticized mine. I realized I was being a bit disrespectful but I just couldn't back off. The thing is, they're just so...basically their opinions are so "wrong" in my eyes that I feel like I HAVE to "correct" them, when I really don't. And I come across as a close-minded, dogmatic jerk--just what I imagined them to be.

My only friend in this class emailed me afterwards and tried to evaluate why I was behaving that way. She was right; I just wanted to make sure that they didn't become "staunch conservatives" the way I had been. It didn't occur to me that just because they have conservative views doesn't mean they're going to be dogmatic jerks about it like I used to be. But I assumed that they were--or would be later in life.

It's embarrassing, the fact that I acted the way I used to. I can't deal with these people at all, and they can't deal with me. And whenever we have a misunderstanding, it's always my fault and never theirs because I can't see things as partially right and partially wrong like they can. It's very black and white with me, and I can't tolerate differences of opinion well. Maybe they can't, either, but they all think alike and I don't.

Oh, and the quiverfull thing is not like a huge emphasis, and neither is all of the other homeschool cultural stuff. The program is not technically for homeschoolers exclusively, but the views put forward are a more moderate version of those found by homeschoolers. Homeschooling might have actually benefitted me, given my difficulties with the social aspects of school, but my parents would not have made great teachers since I basically would have been too smart for them ;) :D The program hasn't mentioned Bill Gothard or Debi Pearl. Who is the second one, BTW? I've never heard of her.

And no, I can't switch. Basically, my parents saw this thing and went with it when they realized it was an online program. That in itself is a good thing because it reduces how much damage I could do, and how badly they could bother me, of course, but I've told them a little bit about my disagreements with these people, and even though they don't necessarily share my opinions they understand my plight. My mom even admitted that had she known she would have put me in something else, like maybe a regular school that just had less people than my old one.

The problem with sticking to God's Word, BFine, is that they seem to think they have it on their side. And with my limited Bible knowledge, they might be right, at least to some extent. Like they won't accept an argument unless it's backed by a Bible verse. They seem to have this idea that you can form your entire worldview on the Bible. It's good to have a Biblical BASIS, as a Christian, but the Bible wasn't intended to give you a definite decision on any modern-day issue. Just some guidelines, and even then it's hard to decide. For the most part, we're in agreement on things, but my opinions are just very clarified, and as a result, appear much more different than theirs then they really are. And it just bothers me so much that they're wrong sometimes. Is it a sin to "correct" someone on an issue like, say, whether or not God has "blessed" America/Britain? And no, neither Canada nor New Zealand were mentioned despite being in the Anglosphere and technically a part of "Western Civilization". That mainly seems to consist of Western Europe plus the US, somewhat conveniently.

I'm just worried now that by doing this and criticizing their views I'm acting the way I perceive them to, and not only does that make me a hypocrite, it also makes me feel like I haven't changed at all since being saved. And it's just frustrating.
 
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chapmic

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There are always going to be people who have their own views of things, its best to just understand where they are coming from and give your opinion on the matter in a gentle peaceful manner. The Bible is where we learn about God's will, you keep your foundation on the Words of God then you have nothing to worry about. Sharing the knowledge about the kingdom of God is a joy not an intellectual competition. As long as you have the heart of wanting to sow a seed and express the glory of Jesus then you have nothing to worry about how people react. People's opinions are fickle and change as often as the weather, just make sure you have a heart to share and whenever you speak about these topics use it to build up people not tear down and insult people. I will be praying for you and them God bless you!
 
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graceandpeace

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Oh, believe me, I'd love to try doing that, but I keep hearing all of these verses about not being in conflict with other believers and being a unified body in Christ, and keep wondering, "Do I have to change my views for the sake of the majority?" I don't want to lie and say that I agree with them when I don't.

Of course not.

Stick to being honest about your beliefs. If others want to debate things with you, then it's up to you to decide whether such a discussion could be fruitful - & to be educated or otherwise prepared for the discussion.

As for the program itself, if you will be penalized for not giving a particular conservative fundamentalist bent answer, it may be time to find another program.
 
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Albion

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This is a difficult one to answer. For one thing, you've listed a lot of different issues you're having--some theological, some emotional, etc. But I think it's not a good idea to be a student in any school if that school has a certain value system...and you are opposed to it.

I'd think it best either to change institutions/programs, or else squelch your impulse to argue with them. You're heading for greater unhappiness if you don't. That isn't to say that your thinking isn't more correct than theirs, but you are enrolled there and have to know that they're going to teach from their perspective. You can get away with some disagreements, if intelligently and calmly put, but I get the idea that you're having a hard time picking your fights and tempering your comments.
 
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grandvizier1006

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Believe me, graceandpeace, I'd love to. By the time summer rolls around I'll be done with this program for good. It hasn't been all bad--I've still gained a better insight on some things--but that whole "opinion as fact" thing really bothers me.

Let me give an example: one assignment was to determine if the Bible supports capitalism or not (How do those two relate? Yeah...it's hard to explain considering that capitalism was conceived centuries after the New Testament was finished). But basically, their argument was that because the Calvinist Dutch conceived of capitalism (that in and of itself has been debated by historians, actually--some argue it was the Italians during the Renaissance), capitalism is therefore "Biblical". A few verses such as "He does not work, shall not eat!" are simply used out of context to support this. That's another thing I hate--they make me take Bible verses out of context to support something, which I feel awful about because I feel like I'm taking the Bible and twisting it to match a viewpoint, and in particular one that I'm not quite so sure about.

Granted, I'm no communist or socialist, so I'd be ok with saying that capitalism is the best system we have. But a gift from God? I don't know. Those others seem to be willing to admit that capitalism has flaws, but at the same time they want to ignore those flaws and give thanks to God for things that are really just human inventions. Capitalism isn't incompatible with Christianity, but perfectly aligned with the Bible? How can it be when the Bible doesn't give guidelines about economic systems?

It's stuff like that. So for one exam I had to basically memorize their answers. That's basically how it's worked for all of the viewpoints. It's like you're allowed to have our own opinion, but if your opinion is dissenting or at least cautious or more realist, then you'd better be able to back it up with the Bible. I don't know the Bible well enough to do that, and as much as I believe that the Bible is important, I don't think it has ALL the answers--God apparently didn't think some were really all that important for us to know, so He just let us decide on a few minor things.

So it's really tough to stick to the Bible when they're implying that it's on their side.
 
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znr

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So it's really tough to stick to the Bible when they're implying that it's on their side.

That's one of the points of faith-it doesn't matter what others think about the bible. What matters is what you do with what you know.
 
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grandvizier1006

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I get the idea that you're having a hard time picking your fights and tempering your comments.

Exactly. I'm worried that it's indicative of me falling back into what I used to be. And I don't know if they are right--in that I'm wrong to be openly disagreeing and maybe not knowing how to be polite about it, or if they're actually falling into the same trap I am. Like the speck in a friend's eye and a plank in your own. I'm concerned that they're looking at the Bible with specific cultural lenses, but I might be doing the same thing based on my own experiences.

Maybe it's not the most pressing thing to worry about right now, but I worry a lot. That's just who I am. I need some time to think on this, I guess, and I'm trying to apologize to everyone who needs to be apologized too. They'll naturally forgive me and treat me as one of their own, but because they all think differently from I do I feel like I just don't fit in with them. I'm just there because, well, God needed me to go through this trial. It's refined who I am, certainly, so it's not all bad :)
 
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Albion

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Exactly. I'm worried that it's indicative of me falling back into what I used to be.

Knowing is half the battle. Since you are aware of the situation and are able to criticize yourself, it's just a matter of thinking before acting. This can be done, but it's an acquired talent. So if you work on it, you'll be able to pull it off, I'm sure. :thumbsup:
 
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grandvizier1006

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Well, thinking about this helped. There's another thread in the general mental health section here that explained 10 cognitive disorders (ways of thinking) and what to do to fix them, which I very conveniently discovered yesterday and thought, "I'm definitely going to need this!". And what do you know? :D

It really helped to just step back and realize that even though I was somewhat to blame, it wasn't "all" anyone's fault. It was just a misunderstanding and a lack of self-control on my part, and some other factors that might have let to me being misinterpreted.
 
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seashale76

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grandvizier1006: Welcome to my life. I disagree with just about everybody on something and the only place I can let is show, besides around a few trusted friends, is on-line. You just have to stop getting into these kinds of conversations with people and focus on what you have in common instead. If they bring things up to you, then engage them with your opinions and arguments, but I wouldn't go out of my way to have these types of conversations with them. Definitely don't seek it out. I know it is very frustrating to constantly be around people whose views you disagree with, but you just have to learn to let it go.
 
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graceandpeace

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Believe me, graceandpeace, I'd love to. By the time summer rolls around I'll be done with this program for good. It hasn't been all bad--I've still gained a better insight on some things--but that whole "opinion as fact" thing really bothers

Yea. I guess maybe if you're about through with the program, just tough it out. Good luck to you!
 
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Goodbook

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Bfine gave good advice. Just dont let bother you so much and answer the questions as best you can relying on the Word of God. When ppl are confronted with TRUTH nobody can argue anything, but it is not of your self or your prejudices or even theirs we all have to submit to God.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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I was homeschooled and know what your talking about. Especially the quiver thing. Ugh. lol. I never fit in with most of the kids or parents because they seemed a bit... over preachy. As in most felt they were holier then thou. Even trying to court/date became such a pain because of a ton of questions and statements like "If you don't go to our church then your not a christian!" or stuff like that.

I wouldn't worry about what they think or say. Just be polite and if they want to try to get you to debate/argue about it then just back out. We could spend out whole lives arguing with people since usually neither side wants to budge on certain topics. Sadly enough my best friend in a what was mostly a christian homeschool group ended up being a hardcore atheists. We got along better then we did with anyone else. This is despite our very different views. We learned to respect the others views. Granted near the end of our friendship we lost his way and stopped caring about respecting my views.
 
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grandvizier1006

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NothingisImpossible, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. I'm kind of worried that some of the kids in the program could end up that way. None of them seem to be "rebellious" against the homeschooling system or whatever, but a lot of them were clearly sheltered a bit by their parents. I can understand not wanting them to be atheists, but I watched a ton of cartoons and played tons of video games in my past, and I'm still a Christian even though some of the stuff I like is a bit...sin-endorsing. It all had to do with me recognizing my sin and letting Christ guide me, not being raised in a church environment.

Some of them live outside the Bible Belt, so they could go to a lot of colleges and maybe be one of the only Christians there, and they might get overwhelmed by the secular culture that was unknown to them, and they'd be forced to look at it in the face. What if they can't do that?

Right now it's Christmas break, but over the holidays guess what they asked us to do? Watch Expelled. Yeah. Our searing indictment of Darwin begins in January :/

After some consideration and discovering the origins of young-earth creationism, I eventually decided that I fell somewhere between old-earth creationism and theistic evolution. I don't like how evolutionary biology is used to excuse sinful behavior, but that's just a moral disagreement. I can criticize it, but I'm not prepared to go toe to toe with an atheist or a "Darwinist" about it. Frankly, when I figured out that there were other ways to interpret Genesis I was relieved, and it made my faith that much stronger since I had one less question to answer. As such, I've avoided the evolution debate sections of the forum for now.

I just hope that when all that stuff happens I'll be ready.
 
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