Direction of Evolution

[AV1611VET]

It would be a lot easier to be a person that could believe without "seeing", and to some extent, I am flexible enough to do so. Just not on a personal whim, I still need some evidence.

I would much rather meet Yahweh or Jesus before I die than get whatever after death reward comes with believing on faith alone, even if I already was a believer.

I'm not interested in two paragraphs for a YES or NO question, Sarah.

You should know that by now.

I read your "answer," and I'm going to assume I'm right: you don't want that blessing.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Ophiolite.

You made an interesting statement.

That is the non-random part.

How could anyone make the claim, that an event is a random event?

Is it possible for an event to occur without a prior cause?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'm not interested in two paragraphs for a YES or NO question, Sarah.

You should know that by now.

I read your "answer," and I'm going to assume I'm right: you don't want that blessing.

The answer actually is that I would want it.

I wish it was a simple yes or no. The answer is, I don't have the blessing (since I am not a believer), so I would like to have it (since I want to be a believer).

However, I would also like to know Jesus personally, and view that as more worth having.

Honestly, I would be content being a believer without any evidence if I could make myself be.

 

[AV1611VET]

Honestly, I would be content being a believer without any evidence if I could make myself be.

 

[Loudmouth]

How could anyone make the claim, that an event is a random event?

Is it possible for an event to occur without a prior cause?

When something is said to be random it is always in relation to something else. For example, the lottery is said to be random, but random in what way? The lottery drawing always takes place at a specific time on a specific day. All of the numbers are within a certain range of numbers. So what do we mean when we say the lottery is random? What we mean is that there is no meaningful connection between the ticket you are holding and the numbers that are drawn. If I am holding a ticket with a specific set of numbers, just having that ticket does not increase the chances that those numbers are going to be drawn. The lottery is random with respect to the tickets.

Mutations are random with respect to fitness. Mutations may happen more often in certain parts of the genome, or they may occur more often in some environmental settings. However, there is no meaningful connection between the processes that produce mutations and the mutations the organism needs in order to increase its fitness. The classic experiments demonstrating this feature of mutations were able to show that beneficial mutations appeared whether the bacteria needed them or not. The connection, or lack thereof, between mutations and fitness is like the connection between the lottery drawing and the lottery ticket you are holding.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Seriously, though, I pray for belief, not for evidence that will inspire belief. Praying and then suddenly being a believer out of nowhere works just as well for me as praying and getting evidence that leads me into belief. It's the end result I care about more.

 

[AV1611VET]

Seriously, though, I pray ...

After talking a look at your profile, I have to ask:

To whom? what is His name?

 

[Speedwell]

Hello Ophiolite.

You made an interesting statement.

How could anyone make the claim, that an event is a random event?

Is it possible for an event to occur without a prior cause?

A random event is not necessarily without a cause.

 

[Speedwell]

You're really not gonna say anything to correct his misunderstanding?

No, because I don't think it is a misunderstanding. I think you know better.

 

[bhsmte]

Seriously, though, I pray for belief, not for evidence that will inspire belief. Praying and then suddenly being a believer out of nowhere works just as well for me as praying and getting evidence that leads me into belief. It's the end result I care about more.

You are unique sarah. Usually people who have a strong enough psychological need to believe, will find a way to convince themselves of a belief. What may be happening though, is a strong desire to accept well evidenced reality, is even a stronger need for you.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What an interesting thread... it's unusual to encounter someone who seems so completely unaware that scientific theories attempt to describe and/or explain how the world behaves, not why, and who doesn't appear to know that particular disciplines and fields of knowledge have their own 'jargon' (custom meanings & usages for certain words).

 

[klutedavid]

When something is said to be random it is always in relation to something else. For example, the lottery is said to be random, but random in what way? The lottery drawing always takes place at a specific time on a specific day. All of the numbers are within a certain range of numbers. So what do we mean when we say the lottery is random? What we mean is that there is no meaningful connection between the ticket you are holding and the numbers that are drawn. If I am holding a ticket with a specific set of numbers, just having that ticket does not increase the chances that those numbers are going to be drawn. The lottery is random with respect to the tickets.

Mutations are random with respect to fitness. Mutations may happen more often in certain parts of the genome, or they may occur more often in some environmental settings. However, there is no meaningful connection between the processes that produce mutations and the mutations the organism needs in order to increase its fitness. The classic experiments demonstrating this feature of mutations were able to show that beneficial mutations appeared whether the bacteria needed them or not. The connection, or lack thereof, between mutations and fitness is like the connection between the lottery drawing and the lottery ticket you are holding.

Hello Loudmouth.

Every event no matter how simple or complex, is directly caused by previous events. Storms don't just happen, volcanoes don't just erupt, resist the urge to see these events as random events.

Centuries ago, people looked upon a magical world, a world without an intricate causation. Things just happened, well as our learning has increased, we have discovered. That there is indeed causes behind so many events, that we once viewed as random events.

The numbers that feature in any lottery draw, are certainly not the result of a random event. Though the complexity of the draw is profound, nevertheless utterly predictable when all the variables are known.

 

[USincognito]

Its cylindrical shape and rounded ends make it a perfect throat plug.

I hope that Bananaman Comfort doesn't read this.

 

[USincognito]

But, to clarify, the reason I so strongly associate evolution with Atheism is because they both teach the same basic, fundamental lesson; there is nor ever was, a God. It's not an unreasonable association, right?

No, that would be an asinine association because evolution most assuredly doesn't "teach" anything about God and it would depend on what sort of atheism you're talking about. Most 'weak' atheists merely lack a belief in a deity or deities. That's literally what the word means. "A" = without "theos" = deities.

But to the more important part of your false association, evolution - just like all of science - simply does not involve itself in the supernatural because it cannot. Without methodological naturalism, science is impossible. You do realize that the weather forecast doesn't mention God, right? Or that plate tectonic theory doesn't invoke a deity to explain earthquakes? If you were intellectually honest, you'd be decrying them as well instead of myopically focusing on evolution (and geology and cosmology too I guess).

SFS earlier said that he believed that God could be behind evolution. I countered that he could be right, but if that were the case it would still not be appropriate to call it evolution. It would be creation. You can still keep all the little fiddly bits regarding genomes etc, except instead of believing there was nothing behind all that complexity, you'd believe there was something. Creation.

This is quite ironic given that you've spent most of your comments arguing about and decrying semantics and then you engage in it (and false equivocation at the same time) in this paragraph.

Creation is a theological doctrine that God or deity/deities created.
Creationism is a proposed explanation for how that creation took place.
Evolution is a scientific theory explaining why we observe the diversity of life we see now and find in the fossil record.

 

[USincognito]

You've been so berated, brow beaten and intimidated by intellectual atheists who'd think you a fool for believing in a creator...

@Speedwell I applaud you for having a believe in a creator and admire your courage to stand up against Creationist bullies who would denigrate your faith and trust in God because you accept and understand the story that the Creation itself is telling you.

 

[bhsmte]

No, that would be an asinine association because evolution most assuredly doesn't "teach" anything about God and it would depend on what sort of atheism you're talking about. Most 'weak' atheists merely lack a belief in a deity or deities. That's literally what the word means. "A" = without "theos" = deities.

But to the more important part of your false association, evolution - just like all of science - simply does not involve itself in the supernatural because it cannot. Without methodological naturalism, science is impossible. You do realize that the weather forecast doesn't mention God, right? Or that plate tectonic theory doesn't invoke a deity to explain earthquakes? If you were intellectually honest, you'd be decrying them as well instead of myopically focusing on evolution (and geology and cosmology too I guess).



This is quite ironic given that you've spent most of your comments arguing about and decrying semantics and then you engage in it (and false equivocation at the same time) in this paragraph.

Creation is a theological doctrine that God or deity/deities created.
Creationism is a proposed explanation for how that creation took place.
Evolution is a scientific theory explaining why we observe the diversity of life we see now and find in the fossil record.

You see, to some, evolution is the enemy because it conflicts with a tightly held personal belief. Therefore, they have to manufacture their own reality about evolution, to create comfort.

 

[bhsmte]

@Speedwell I applaud you for having a believe in a creator and admire your courage to stand up against Creationist bullies who would denigrate your faith and trust in God because you accept and understand the story that the Creation itself is telling you.

Here, here!!!!!

 

[USincognito]

You don't want to talk about creation because you're afraid of what others may think of you; what matters is that they don't even get the hint that you're like those weirdos, so instead you call it evolution and slip under the radar.

You see, speedwell. I do listen to you.

Why do so many Creationists think they're mind readers?

 

[USincognito]

Can you read minds?

Beat me to it.

 

[bhsmte]

Why do so many Creationists think they're mind readers?

It goes along with their strong need to manufacture their own reality, to protect their belief.