Direct experience vs belief

[Chris B]

You seem to be saying that you give 'thought' more trust than direct experience when assessing your belief system. Is that what you're saying?

Yes. I had to learn that, though.

A few experiences of being utterly certain (beyond even the idea of doubt arising) of something and then having it demonstrated beyond doubt that it was a mistaken certainty, that definitely helped.
And then thinking about perception and interpretation, in human beings.
Visual illusions, and their reasons for existing. The "snake or rope" confusion...
The problem of rating by confidence the personal experiences retold by others as opposed to personal experiences retold by me (via memory).
Am I allowed to claim a privileged position, or not?
("I know I can trust myself over what I experienced but I don't know I can trust you when you speak of your experience?")
The obvious first answer is "of course!" but it's nothing like as simple as that.

Just as a start point:
it is possibly to be utterly certain concerning something and yet be utterly mistaken in in that belief
The certainty of belief is no actual proof of the soundness of the belief or conviction.
It on its own is not even much evidence for the soundness of the belief or conviction.
Nor (as I have heard from some New Age sources) does firm and sure belief generate or create the reality of that belief.
Or no-one would ever have had to say, horrified, "... but I was certain it wasn't loaded."

 

[Murby]

Even if you aren't a religious person and don't think much about, enough suffering will make you start asking those questions.

That's not true.. Humans have evolved to seek answers and look for solutions.. its probably one of the defining things that makes us the dominant species because strength and stamina sure aren't.
The problem is that when we look for answers and don't fine reasonable explanations, we tend to accept unreasonable ones to fill the gap.
I have endured medical problems that twice put me in the hospital with my life on the line.... I've been stuck in cave for 6 hours in complete darkness wondering if we were ever going to find a way out, and I spent almost an hour hanging on to a barbed wire fence in a flash flood of raging water...
They say there are no Atheist in fox holes.. Bull.. Never once did I ever resort to thinking about anything remotely religious..... although I had wondered if my body would be found a couple times..

Which should we listen to? Should we trust a belief system or should we trust our direct experiences?

Trust in yourself and science.. that's all there is..

Belief system. It will get you through the tough times.

But that belief system doesn't need to be based on religion..

 

[Chriliman]

When we put our hand on a hot stove, pain tells us to remove it. When we haven't eaten in awhile, our hunger pain signals for us to go get food. Pain calls for us to act or make a change. It doesn't say to continue course or remain complacent. Can you see this?

Now, when are the times when we are the most open minded about our belief system? It's almost always during times when we experience pain right? The deeper that we are hurting, the more likely we are to contemplate the big questions (Is this really all there is to life, why are things the way they are, is there a God). Even if you aren't a religious person and don't think much about, enough suffering will make you start asking those questions.

Christianity teaches the way to properly exercise faith is to continue to believe when faced with doubt. When times are tough, that is when you should double-down and dive deeper into your Christian beliefs. Other religions have similar teachings.

However, this ignores the idea that pain calls for action and change. If all that was required of us was to stay the course in the face of doubt, then doubt could come at any time. It could come when we are thriving, but this isn't how it works. Doubt and pain come at us together. There are two messages: one message calls for change and the other message indicates what to change.

Which should we listen to? Should we trust a belief system or should we trust our direct experiences? Is faith about staying with what is known and comfortable? Or is it about going into uncertainty and darkness, trusting that you'll find your way?

Direct experiences lead to beliefs. If we experience pain, we believe there is a reason for the pain and recognizing the reason will help stop the pain.

Faith is trusting that there's a true reason behind all of our experiences, no matter what experience we're going through. When one begins to think there's no reason behind what their experiencing, meaninglessness begins to creep in and can cause depression.

What's interesting is that the one who is depressed can't find a reason to be happy, however there is a reason why they're depressed and if they can recognize the true reason, the pain of depression would go away and they would become happy again.

Faith in truth is essential to living a fruitful life. If you have no faith in truth, then you can't expect anything to be true and you live a life of doubting all truth.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Ok, so if you were faced with direct experiences of reality that were in opposition to your current belief system, you would still trust your belief system?

It seems to me that, generalizing, one of the characteristics of a belief system is that everything is interpreted in terms of that system, and contrary indications are taken as attacks or challenges that must be defended against or responded to respectively, and are cause to increase resolve and reinforce those beliefs, so as to see off the attack or challenge.

 

[Chris B]

They say there are no Atheist in fox holes..

Yeah, but that's only because we're advancing.

 

[Chris B]

It seems to me that, generalizing, one of the characteristics of a belief system is that everything is interpreted in terms of that system, and contrary indications are taken as attacks or challenges that must be defended against or responded to respectively, and are cause to increase resolve and reinforce those beliefs, so as to see off the attack or challenge.

Yes. The "paradigm in place" effect. It's very reasonable, up to a point*, but discovering that flip point is difficult: the place where fitting or bending or discarding new data working from the existing framework is less likely to add to real knowledge...
...compared to looking for a fundamentally a new core framework which accepts the existing information with less fitting, bending or discarding.
A firm belief in place can make almost any datum fit it, if enough effort is made, or a very flexible philosophical glue is employed: "we're not supposed to understand" would be an example of such.

Bystander: "Why are you painting white line in the road?"
Worker: "To keep the tigers away."
Bystander: "But there aren't any tigers around here!"
Worker: "Good stuff, isn't it?"

Chris


*it's what everyone actually does: navigate reality by their current mental map and model of reality.
If the map is too far off, reality will point this out, quite possibly in a drastic manner.
"Oh, I'm sure I've got room to get my car through there".

 

[Murby]

Faith in truth is essential to living a fruitful life. If you have no faith in truth, then you can't expect anything to be true and you live a life of doubting all truth.

Faith is believing without evidence.. You don't need to believe in stuff without evidence to have a fruitful life.. in fact, its more likely the opposite is actually more true.

Whether something is true or not has nothing to do with faith.. and I don't live a life doubting much except maybe the weatherman's predictions sometimes. Contrary to what you say, this entire forum is filled with postings from people of deeply religious beliefs that are expressing doubts on a minute by minute basis. And yet, you don't see forums filled with non-believers doing the same thing..

That seems to be the exact opposite of what you claim.... Seems to me, from personal observations and from the postings in these forums, belief in religion is more likely to fill one's mind with doubt and uncertainty rather than prevent it.

When one begins to think there's no reason behind what their experiencing, meaninglessness begins to creep in and can cause depression.

You have got to be kidding me.
I will never understand how religious people come up with these idea's.

Do you folks carry around a book or something filled with this stuff? Oh wait.. Just answered my own question..

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

*it's what everyone actually does: navigate reality by their current mental map and model or reality.
If the map is too far off, reality will point this out, quite possibly in a drastic manner.
"Oh, I'm sure I've got room to get my car through there".

Superstitious or magical belief systems can bend reality to fit: "Where's your wing mirror?"
"I was misled by an evil demon", "I was cursed", "It was karma/fate/bad luck, etc.", "someone or something didn't want me to get through", "I shouldn't have missed the vernal equinox", "I had a bad feeling about this car", "Friday 13th", etc.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

It seems to me that, generalizing, one of the characteristics of a belief system is that everything is interpreted in terms of that system, and contrary indications are taken as attacks or challenges that must be defended against or responded to respectively, and are cause to increase resolve and reinforce those beliefs, so as to see off the attack or challenge.

Yes, this especially applies to religion. How does someone in this situation ever get out of their belief system? Surely, you're not saying it's never happened. If you think it is because of reason or logic, I would strongly urge you to reconsider..

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Yes. I had to learn that, though.

A few experiences of being utterly certain (beyond even the idea of doubt arising) of something and then having it demonstrated beyond doubt that it was a mistaken certainty, that definitely helped.
And then thinking about perception and interpretation, in human beings.
Visual illusions, and their reasons for existing. The "snake or rope" confusion...
The problem of rating by confidence the personal experiences retold by others as opposed to personal experiences retold by me (via memory).
Am I allowed to claim a privileged position, or not?
("I know I can trust myself over what I experienced but I don't know I can trust you when you speak of your experience?")
The obvious first answer is "of course!" but it's nothing like as simple as that.

Just as a start point:
it is possibly to be utterly certain concerning something and yet be utterly mistaken in in that belief
The certainty of belief is no actual proof of the soundness of the belief or conviction.
It on its own is not even much evidence for the soundness of the belief or conviction.
Nor (as I have heard from some New Age sources) does firm and sure belief generate or create the reality of that belief.
Or no-one would ever have had to say, horrified, "... but I was certain it wasn't loaded."

Ok, I'm with you on all that. Let me introduce a new variable: repetition. Would it be fair to say with more occurrences of a certain direct experience, it would eventually cause you to trust it more than your current thought based oppositional belief? Or are you completely firm in your position?

 

[Chris B]

Would it be fair to say with more occurrences of a certain direct experience, it would eventually cause you to trust it more than your current thought based oppositional belief? Or are you completely firm in your position?

It's an aid, certainly.
While I can't prove that there will be a dawn tomorrow, I have not the slightest *practical* doubt about dawn arriving, exactly on schedule.
Things that don't meet expectations of regularity are at the least considered "unusual", shading to odd, peculiar, strange, weird, (supernatural?) But the reasons for the lack of regularity, or the expectation of it (warranted or not) can be vary varied.

I can't be *completely* firm in my position.
Away from a few purely logical systems I have rarely found a way to squeeze the last drop of uncertainty out of world views and other concepts, simple and complex.
I would defend a thesis that too many people drop into absolute certainty far, far too easily.

I'll add a different factor: it is for many people easier to trust or believe in whatever was the cultural norm in their family or local society as they were raised.
I've had to do a lot of picking bits out of my mind, once I started to see how mistaken or wrong a lot of items were, that I'd just acquired though unconscious absorption during my childhood.

And one last thought: data, information or observations that fit a framework of thought, a paradigm, or a belief system perfectly offer such no confirming support at all if they fit a different framework etc. equally well.

I do all my shopping on line. All of it. Am I lazy, incredibly busy, or disabled and immobile? Any of the three could fit, so the fact of my shopping habits doesn't particularly point to any of the possibilities (which doesn't stop some people being sure that I must be in the first category.)

 

[TreasureHunter12]

I would defend a thesis that too many people drop into absolute certainty far, far too easily.

I would go even further and not just say "too many people" but literally everyone struggles with that.

Once we are within a belief system, anything threatening it can be rationalized. Because of this, we would never be able to get outside of our belief system, beyond the rationalizations if not for pain, which repeatedly afflicts everyone and provides the OPPORTUNITY to get outside of our beliefs and see them without bias.

The drug addict has heard every rational and logical reason why he should stop but it never works. Why does the twelve step program work? I'm not saying it's a successful program that I support, but why does it ever work? It's not because it's teaching true beliefs. It's because it pushes the addict to open himself up to the pain (shame, insecurity, unfulfillment, etc). The pain allows him to see clearly.

Once the addict is outside of his beliefs and its blind spots, he can see all the logical and rational reasons why his behavior was destructive. So, he may think that the reason why he was able to quit was because of reason, but he is mistaken. Similarly, the person who quits his religion may also give all these rational explanations for it but he is also unaware of the real cause. Those rational objections he had undoubtedly heard before and rationalized.

 

[Locutus]

I will never understand how religious people come up with these idea's.

Do you folks carry around a book or something filled with this stuff? Oh wait.. Just answered my own question..

This. I'm not sure how they explain all those 'meaningless' lives in Scandinavia. Maybe they tell themselves that Swedes and Norwegians are secretly all depressed

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Yes, this especially applies to religion. How does someone in this situation ever get out of their belief system? Surely, you're not saying it's never happened.

I did say I was generalizing... I can think of a few ways it might happen. Not everyone thinks in the same way, and not everyone is totally committed to their belief system. Many don't really give it much thought.

If you think it is because of reason or logic, I would strongly urge you to reconsider..

I'm not sure what you mean - reason and logic tend to be secondary in such belief systems.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Why does the twelve step program work? I'm not saying it's a successful program that I support, but why does it ever work? It's not because it's teaching true beliefs. It's because it pushes the addict to open himself up to the pain (shame, insecurity, unfulfillment, etc). The pain allows him to see clearly.

Do you not think having a structured framework of time and activity, a peer group with the same objective, and a guiding sponsor might play an important part?

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Do you not think having a structured framework of time and activity, a peer group with the same objective, and a guiding sponsor might play an important part?

Definitely helps, but not essential unlike the pain part.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

I appreciate all the feedback. I read all the posts even if I didn't respond. I made my point for consideration, so I'll bow out now.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

OP, you might be interested in the idea of a "web of belief" and the idea of "minimal mutilation".


heres a look at the ideas in a philosophy a to z:


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DWpW-vmgK48C&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=web+of+belief+minimal+mutilation&source=bl&ots=_ofjND7hlh&sig=s5wzVzpew7lb5VtHe_4VfKcfjvg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi397HF0qHLAhUCYQ8KHcGJBNYQ6AEIMDAE#v=onepage&q=web of belief minimal mutilation&f=false

 

[Chris B]

I would go even further and not just say "too many people" but literally everyone struggles with that.

I didn't want to employ an absolute assertion when commenting on absolute beliefs.

Once we are within a belief system, anything threatening it can be rationalized. Because of this, we would never be able to get outside of our belief system, beyond the rationalizations if not for pain, which repeatedly afflicts everyone and provides the OPPORTUNITY to get outside of our beliefs and see them without bias.

The first part *can* be done, but it doesn't have to be, if certain beliefs about beliefs are held.
And pain and suffering itself can also be made to fit almost any belief so need not particularly be a lever for its overthrow.
I don't think "pain" is the especial key that you make it out to be.

Someone who is convinced that they have arrived is unlikely to be tempted to travel.
Realising that one's beliefs are not a finished project, perfect and from here on to be left untouched
(by declaring all other positions "flawed" is a common defensive meme.)
Now that introduces or at least allows for both a modicum of flexibility and a little room for tolerance of those holding different beliefs.
And some possibility, however faint, of meeting truly unexpected (even unwanted) information.

 

[timewerx]

Which should we listen to? Should we trust a belief system or should we trust our direct experiences? Is faith about staying with what is known and comfortable? Or is it about going into uncertainty and darkness, trusting that you'll find your way?

Every time I reached the end of my rope, I listen to the person inside me as I have learned eventually.

In my previous reaching ends of ropes, I did not trust anything. I was a Christian then but I though everything that I "heard" is a potential deception from the enemy.

Oh I did hear something alright.. And every time I hit my end of my rope, it gets worse and worse and worse, but little did I know I was being pushed into the truth even though it's getting worse and worse and worse on the outside. So I started trusting the voice within me.

I wasn't pushed into mainstream beliefs. I was being pushed into something far more deep, a treasure to behold, a place where no man dares to go and sends shivers down the spine of televangelists!