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Dinosaur footprints destroy flood geology.

ChordatesLegacy

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Rob Byers wrote

Chordateslegacy
what to expect is not to be expected. It is unknown how and how much need of the earth was needed to separate the landmass.

I have no idea what you are suggesting here; but it looks as if you are suggesting the continents separated without the underlying mantle moving. This is dreaming in the extreme, for the continents to move and new crust to form you have to destroy older crust to make way for it. The only place the old crust can go is down into the mantle, which is were the material comes from to form the new crust.

In all literature it is a constant thing that melting lave poured into other rock forms showing great chaos.

WHAT LITERATURE: QUOTES AND REFERENCES PLEASE


It is here on the shield. Metamorphic rock all comes from the flood year .

QUOTES AND REFERENCES TO THE RESEARCH THAT SUGGESTS THIS.


The grat volcanos, now gone, came from the flood year.

How do you know there were great volcanos, and where did they go; QUOTES AND REFERENCES PLEASE.

The evidence of earth is exactly what creationist models expect.

No it is not; this has been explained here; the evidence all points to a very very old Earth, not a single piece of evidence supports the creationist world view; READ WHAT HAS BEEN POSTED.

Great depths of rock overturned, transformed, pulverized by the great undergound actions of a moving land mass.

Musings of a confused mind

The evidence for speedy movement is the result.

As already posted in this thread, there is absolutely no evidence for any cataclysmic plate tectonics; ALL THE EVIDENCE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD INDECATES THE OPERSITE.

it should be the first conclusion.

It’s a conclusion that no scientist has ever come to; other than those wallowing in the magical mysticism of creationism. If creationists were right, would you not thing that scientists from other countries and religions would support it. ONLY CREATIONISTS HAVE THE GAUL TO EVEN SUGGEST IT>


Your melt criticisms is beyond my intimate knowledge yet again your presuming movement would be a certain way. The earth is great in its underlying power. We see the results and know the history, the bible, and can fit the pieces together.

The Bible was written by Bronze Age man; who by any measure had limited knowledge of the natural world. Even the roman catholic church belives in an old earth and evolution.


Modern geology as others said here is just guessing about how plates move.

No; it is not guessing; that is what you are doing. Geologists and other scientists, observe, experiment and question everything before developing theories, which are then constantly tested.


They have to presume slowness. they can't and don't test their ideas.

No they are not presuming slowness, there are observing slowness and the outcome of the slowness of plate tectonics. These parameters are then used for modelling, and guess what, it explains everything we see most elegantly.


It is a big subject. However the result imply the means. Fast sudden movement in a great event. You have to do the work to show it was a slow process.


The work is done to show it was a slow prosess; including going down to these ocean ridges and observing the processes.


Likewise sedimentary rock shows a sudden great collections of sediment made into rock suddenly. Life in the pileup included.

Before we get onto sedimentary rocks, we must first understand igneous rocks and then metamorphic rocks.

I've been reading Hutton lately and its so clear that they rejected a young earth just because they couldn't see how rocks could be folded deep down and so .

The reason a young earth was rejected is because all and I mean all the evidence proved un-categorically that the earth must be at least millions of years old. This view has been further supported by work in biology, chemistry, physics, planetary science, cosmology etc.

No faith and no creative imagination and then research to figure the obvious thing to the eyes. Great sudden shakeups.

Having a creative imagination is fine, even good, but it the evidence is against it, it has to be thrown away, just like creationism.


Thank goodness continental drift(we say redeye) came by to give creationism a little help.

Continent drift does nothing for creationists, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you in your next post to submit some evidence to support your claims, something up to this point you have not done.
 
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Baggins

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Don't spend too much time and effort on Byers CL he is a Poe.

But I'd like to make fun of his laughable statement that geologists presume plate tectonics is a slow process, he has obviously never heard of GPS which shows without a shadow of a doubt that plate tectonics is a slow process
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Don't spend too much time and effort on Byers CL he is a Poe.
I have debated him off and on for more than 4 years. As strange as it seems I am convinced that he is for a for real serious YEC and actually as ignorant as he appears to be. Anyway, I do this stuff as much for lurkers and Chordtest Legacy's posts have been very information in general.
But I'd like to make fun of his laughable statement that geologists presume plate tectonics is a slow process, he has obviously never heard of GPS which shows without a shadow of a doubt that plate tectonics is a slow process
True, I doubt this will have any effect on him or any other YEC. They are all too thoroughly possessed by Morton's Demon.
 
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Baggins

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I have debated him off and on for more than 4 years. As strange as it seems I am convinced that he is for a for real serious YEC and actually as ignorant as he appears to be. .

I find it difficult to believe that someone who thinks that plate tectonics is called plate teutonics is not taking the mick. Anyone that dumb couldn't function on a day to day level without professional help.

His spelling looks too contrived to really be due to ignorance rather than deliberate.

I just seems too unlikely, although you look at people like little Nipper and AV and you see the same blank faced incomprehension just with better grammar so you could be correct.

Anyway I have put him on ignore as there is only so much ignorance I can deal with. I could handle it if he showed the slightest ability to learn anything, but he doesn't.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Poe's Law Strikes Again.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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It’s been a bit chaotic around here, but i would like to keep the thread going.

We have discussed the formation of oceanic ridges and how they form almost all of the oceanic crust. These are other igneous inputs such as oceanic plateaus (the ocean equivalent to Large Igneous Provinces on land; i.e. Deccan Traps, Siberian Trap, North Atlantic Igneous Province) . Once the magma has cooled at mid ocean ridges, it is almost immediately undergoing alteration by hydrothermal activity, which is the circulation of sea water through the underlying rocks. This water is often supper heated at depth due to it’s interaction with magma chambers, which forces it upwards where it can dissolve and precipitate ions and other elements out of the surrounding rock i.e. gabbros and basalts (gabbro has the same chemical makeup as basalt but is emplaced below the surface). This often produces rich ore deposits and black smokers, as well as producing energy for the sulphur reducing bacteria which then supports the unique eco systems to be found at these locations.


Here’s a link that explains the alteration of oceanic crust for those interested in advancing their knowledge of how the rock cycle works.

LINK



Black Smoker


Hydrothermal vents and new forms of life were first discovered at mid-ocean ridges in 1977. Hydrothermal vents, also called black smokers, have been discovered at nearly all the mid-ocean ridges. Water, hydrogen sulfide, and other minerals pour from these springs at temperatures of about 660 degrees F (350 degrees C). These hot waters host an ecosystem complete with giant clams, mussels, tube worms, and other critters. These organisms use sulfur, not sunlight, to live. Photograph of a tube worm colony by Daniel Fornari, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. Photo from U.S. Geological Survey's This Dynamic Earth.

LINK
 
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RobertByers

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I don't know if the Deccan traps were during the flood or later. The only way is to know if they have fossils of creatures and who.
Your just guessing about gas release or heating the earth etc. These sudden events would have their own equations of cause and effect.
Your not showing that these things happened but only surmissing they did.
You misinderstand as other Geologists on these forums that you are speculating about past and gone events from present events. Yet our great and different events would mean different combinations of the cause and effect of earth movements.
Your doing grade two math and we are doing Algreba.
 
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flatworm

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Sorry, you don't just get to wave aside everything known about physics on the bald, unevidenced claim that the laws of physics were wildly different in the past. I don't think you grasp just how intertwined the laws of physics are with each other and how they're necessary for life as we know it to exist. There is no special "Law of Keeping Plate Tectonics Slow" that could just be suspended with no side effects for anything else. There are only fundamental values and relationships like the gravitational constant, the strength of electromagnetic interactions, etc. and any change big enough to allow your "accelerated" plate tectonics would certainly render life as we know it impossible, ark or no ark.
 
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RobertByers

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chordateslegacy
I never made a opinion about mantles not moving.

I just said that anything I've read shows the earth geology fits within episodic periods and not gradualism. theres no need to see the chaos of rock formations or slower layered formations as anything but due to the flood year. it all fits.

Creationism welcomes great rock upheavels and lava flows within the earth or above as it shows sudden action.

I note that they say great volcanos existed to create this or that on the Canadian shield. so I simply say the volcanos exploded when the continents moved and were later during the year washed away with the great power of moving water.

This is a big subject and I insist its up to your side to show the great evidence for your great conclusions.
Your just repeating ordinary info from geology books.
We can't tst drift rates or anything in the past and so we bith just repeat ourselves.
We need something both sides can sink their teeth into.

By the way my Hutton reading indicates that Geology in Britain was first dominated by flood geology. It was a very Puritan country, Scotland, that pushed geology on the world and at first did it from a biblical creationist stance. The first "science" was our crowd.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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Rob Byers wrote

chordateslegacy
I never made a opinion about mantles not moving.

It is mantle (singular): If you persist with the hypothesis that all the oceanic crust in the world was formed in a year; you have to explain how, find the evidence to support your creationist claims and then publish them.

Of course none of this has been done; not even at explanation of how it could happen. As far as the mantle is concerned it is not separate of the crust, it is a continuation of the crust, all be it a different composition, but the important fact is that it is SOLID.

You have to explain how 1000s of km of solid rock can move laterally 1000s of km.

I just said that anything I've read shows the earth geology fits within episodic periods and not gradualism.

WHAT ARE YOU READING; REFERENCES PLEASE


theres no need to see the chaos of rock formations or slower layered formations as anything but due to the flood year. it all fits.

NONE of it fits with the flood year, but it all fits perfectly with Uniformiatrianism.

Creationism welcomes great rock upheavels and lava flows within the earth or above as it shows sudden action.

Volcanic eruptions can be very sudden, but never on the scale you are suggesting, the largest calderas can be measured in 10s to 100s of km at best; nowhere near large enough for the creationist paradigm

I note that they say great volcanos existed to create this or that on the Canadian shield.

We will deal with the Canadian Shield in time, but we need to discuss ocean crust formation at present.

If you have literature that the Canadian Shield is evidence for the global flood, give us the references.

so I simply say the volcanos exploded when the continents moved and were later during the year washed away with the great power of moving water.

Musings of a delusional mind; this statement is pure fabrication and not based on anything other that your misconceptions.

This is a big subject and I insist its up to your side to show the great evidence for your great conclusions.

The evidence is being posted here daily; also if you cared to read up on the subject matter you would see the mountains of evidence for the rock cycles as proposed by every none creationist scientist in the world.

Your just repeating ordinary info from geology books.

Yes they are geological book, but unlike your reference book, the geology texts contain mountains of evidence which anyone can follow up and go see for themselves


We can't tst drift rates or anything in the past and so we bith just repeat ourselves.

Yes we can; if as I have posted here, minerals are hydrothermally emplaced in oceanic crust soon after it formed, then you would also expect to see evidence for black smokers, mineral vains etc in the geological record. If as you say the oceanic crust was formed in one year there would not of been the time for these processes to occur.

Also remember the oceanic crust is basaltic and not ultrabasic (containingincreased Fe and Mg) for it to have formed the way creationist suggest. There's also radiometric dating, which only supports the old earth theory, and yes this is a theory; tried and tested.

We need something both sides can sink their teeth into.

EVIDENCE; but your side chooses to ignore it

By the way my Hutton reading indicates that Geology in Britain was first dominated by flood geology. It was a very Puritan country, Scotland, that pushed geology on the world and at first did it from a biblical creationist stance. The first "science" was our crowd.

Yes this is true; the early geologists were sent out to find evidence for the flood; but what they found destroyed the flood for ever. Only people ignorant of the facts now believe in the magical mystical flood.

I am still waiting for one piece of evidence from you, just one, you must have that, but there again there is no evidence for your stance.
 
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ResoluteShaman

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But suppose God removed the water upward --- say, took it to Mars, as Dad suggested; or Neptune, as I suggested?

How would that affect what we interpret today, geologically?

Out into space, where it would have frozen immediately? So where are the ice crystals/shards?

And as with Tsunamis, any and all flood water would roll back into the oceans/seas, and be absorbed into the ground, and evaporated.
 
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TheManeki

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Hey AV, if we're pointlessly speculating on what kind of divine miracles could account for the appearance and disappearance of flood waters, let's at least be creative.

Maybe God took all the dragons, and unicorns (invisible pink ones and visible non-pink ones), and satyrs, and whatnot and turned them into water! And then after the Flood God turned the extra water into creatures that weren't on Noah's ark, like platypi and puggles and hamsters and lemurs.

Is this really any less farfetched than taking water to Mars or Neptune or Uranus?
 
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ResoluteShaman

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There was no global flood that killed off all but 8 people. That's my point. The Grand Canyon was formed, not by global flood, but millions of years of erosion, from a river that sliced through it over the years. There was no need for any water to be magically taken away.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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We have shown here that the oceanic crust when fresh is predominantly basaltic in nature, which over time undergoes alteration by hydrothermal reactions.

This is plain to see, spend a bit of money and you can go look for yourself.

Fossil hydrothermal vents are located all over the world, indicating that the mechanisms now at work beneath the oceans were the same through geological time.



Longitudinal section through an articulated specimen of the rhynchonellid brachiopod Anarhynchia cf. gabbi from the early Jurassic Figueroa vent site, California. The interior cavity is filled by agate. See Little et al. 1999c and 2004b for details.


Massive sulphide block from the early Silurian Yaman Kasy vent site, Ural Mountains, Russia. This block contains many specimens of the cone shaped monoplacophoran mollusc Thermoconus shadlunae (e.g. bottom centre) and some specimens of the lingulate brachiopod Pyrodiscus lorrainae (e.g. left middle). See Little et al. 1997 and 1999a for details.

LINK
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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Calculations suggest ore bodies may have formed in 100,000 yrs. Fluid inclusion studies suggest that the temperature of the plume of rising hydrothermal fluid was 300 - 350°C. Spooner suggests that contained sulphur has isotopic composition of seawater sulphate. So ocean crust ore sulphide may be largely of reduced seawater sulphate origin. The following diagrams illustrate some of the processes of convective seawater circulation and the respective mineral zones in the formation of hydrothermal mounds on the ocean floor




LINK
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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I suppose we can now look at subduction of oceanic crust



Destructive plate margins occur where crustal plates converge - with one plate being forced downwards beneath the overriding plate. Typically this takes place when oceanic crust meets continental crust - the oceanic material is slightly denser and is forced downwards by the encroaching continental material. As the oceanic crust moves down below the continental, rising temperatures and frictional effects cause the oceanic rocks to melt adding to the sub-terranean magma pool. As the two plates slide past and over one another, substantial friction stores energy within the rocks. This energy is released in earthquakes with foci along the destructive plate margin - or subduction zone.


The process for getting the subducted oceanic crust back to the surface (exhumation) is not well understood. Whatever the process, it must be rapid on order to preserve the high-pressure, low temperature minerals. Gary favors a process propelled by buoyancy. Jadeitic pyroxene is less dense and more viscous than olivine that occurs in the mantle. This difference in buoyancy allows the subducted crust to rise. More remarkable is the fact that these tectonic blocks, some at least 10 km, have been returned to the surface from such depths relatively intact (stratigraphically coherent).

LINK





Metamorphic facies phase diagram
LINK

Most the metamorphic processes occur at destructive plate margins and they can give us great insight into the tectonic history of the differing rock types associated with subduction zones.

Below is an image of a blue schist thin section from North Wales, UK. This is the oldest blue schist outcrop in the world. From the above diagram it is clear that this rock underwent medium pressure and low temperature metamorphism, indicative of subduction zones.


 
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RobertByers

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Its not been tested if a year long movement including all other aspects of the year of the flood would bring destruction to earth.
There clearly has been movement and there is no reason to see this great movement frying everything up. The cause and effect of the flood and the movements of earth and how they were moved is not demonstrable to not work fine.
All sides are dealing with evidence after the fact. The creationist opionion just makes more sense and is rooted in biblical boundaries.
I'm not saying the laws were different back then but just not understood in total right now. The creationist model has not been explored by non creationist geology. So they can't say this or that wouldn't work when they don't include or understand the variables and other options for earth movements.
 
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AintNoMonkey

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Actually, it was investigated intensely in the mid 1800s, and even then they found it to be lacking. As our knowledge base has increased, it has become even more lacking. Provide good evidence that can't be explained by modern geology, and we'll talk. You've never done this, so you haven't a leg to stand on.
 
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RobertByers

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Chordateslegacy
All we talk about here is data after the fact. All you say is this was formed this way and that formed that way. I understand geology makes these conclusions about things but they were wrong.
The making of earth crust is not my subject but it doesn't matter. Its premise on premise. Everything in the earth shows a sudden action with a result. Not gradualism.
this is a weighty subject and I would have to examone all your presumptions you introduce as fact.
Its too broad a subject.

By the way the Scottish geologists, the first in the world, did not correct themselves but insisted creationism fit geology. In fact Huttons stuff was not dominant until Lyell pushed it forward from what I read.
creationist geology was the first geology in the world. It was not overthrown by the first geologists but only later ones.
 
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