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Difficulties

LindaBerlin

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Although I am unqualified to provide any comfort or counsel to what you have suffered, your life & that of your sister are sacred.

I believe there are Christian counselors who could help you in regards to healing and salvation.

Lukaris, if you had read the previous text carefully, you would know that Regine and I often thought of suicide, or wished that our mother could have aborted us. But there is a difference between thoughts and desires on the one hand, and the action on the other. The hell we both went through taught us things. I became a Christian with "fire in my belly", as my ex-husband once called it. I fight against injustices and hatred of women where I see it.
My sister has developed differently. She became a born again Christian in Oklahoma shortly after her marriage to Mr. Eddie Johnson, and fled into her religion. She has rejected all except of two of her children. Her daughter because she is bisexual, her eldest son, because of used drugs (why, she never asked).
She also cast her middle son because he was the son of boyfriend number three, and he had a hare's swarm and stuttered.
Only her youngest two sons, one of them married the wife of a pastor, were her favorites. The second younger son, Christian, was jailed for beating a gay man to death with a friend. That Christian fought against his own homosexuality at that time, and had only slain the man in order to get the love of his mother, did not want and could not see her.
By the way, Christian secretly lived gay in Oklahoma, and became a teacher at a middle school. Because of his mother's opposition to homosexuals, and his church's congregation to LGBTIQ people, he took his own life six years ago. His mother still does not know (at least officially) that he was gay.
That is why the issues of abortion and homosexuality are so important to me, because I myself and my family have been and are affected by it.
 
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Of course, children are a gift from God, and they deserve to be loved, protected, and cared for.
I want to tell you why I think it's up to every woman to decide for herself whether she wants a child or not, because NONE of the women make that decision lightly. There is often a lot of hardship and fear behind it.
Let us take my mother as an example.
Shortly after the end of World War II, she was raped by several dark-skinned French soldiers. She became pregnant, was not allowed to have an abortion, because in the Adenauer era this was forbidden. My sister was born. My mother could not give her love, neglected and often beat her for no occasion.
Years later, she met my "father," a GI from Idaho. She loved him, but he just wanted sex, and he left her when she got pregnant with me. My mother also wanted to abort me. It was forbidden to her.
I too was neglected and beaten, and my sister and I did not get any love. As a result, we were both unable to give or receive love.
From my point of view, it would have been better if my mother could have aborted both of us.
By the way, no quote from the Bible says that abortion would be forbidden. And what is not explicitly forbidden (by Bible or state law) is allowed.



Not a lie, but based on biblical scientific knowledge. Buy or borrow kittel's book series. It is called the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament" and consists of 10 volumes. Here is the link to the purchase option:

https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Dictionary-New-Testament-Abridged/dp/0802824048

You quoted Leviticus. Do you even know what the word "abomination" means? Here is a little tutoring:

In the Hebrew language, "abomination (in German "Greuel")" is translated as "Toevah" (תֹּועֵבָה), which means that God abhors something, something that is unclean. Thus, this refers to a ritual impurity, not a moral sin, which would have to be translated as Hebrew "Zimah". The Septuagint correctly translates the word abomination with the word "bdelygma," which describes a ritual impurity, not "anomia," which stands for transgression and sin. Thus, a woman who menstruated, also called an abomination, is called unclean, and she was not allowed to enter the temple in this state, but she was not sinful because of it. Toevah is also often used to describe idolatry
For Jews, then as now, homosexuality has something to do with ritual purity, and by no means anything to do with sexuality, in relation to these two scriptures. These verses are part of the ceremonial law, not the moral law, which is also evident in the context of these two chapters. It was primarily a guideline for Jews, especially Priests/Levites.
Kittel proved in his book series that the Biblical quotations in 1. Corinthians and Timothy, who supposedly describe active and passive homosexuality, mean otherwise. Here is my summary from Kittel's book:

The two words intended to describe homosexuality are translated by Luther as "catamite" (Greek: Malakoi) and "Boy Abuser" (Greek: Arsenokoitai).
The King James version, the Bible available to all English-speaking Christians, translates Malakoi with homosexuals, which can't really have the meaning, because the word homosexuality only appeared at the end of the 19th century. Previously, it was believed that this word derives from "malakee", which means "masturbation". It was only when enlightened people realized that masturbation is not a sin, but has a useful function, that homosexuality was spoken of as meaning for this word. But what exactly did Paul mean by the word? No one knows. Elsewhere in the Bible, this word Malakoi is also used for people who are:

Soft, sicky, fig, tender/gentle, debauchery, or unreliable. It is needed for people who are undisciplined and morally weak, incapable of moral integrity and self-control, but nowhere is it placed in a sexual context.
But what does "Arsenokoitai" mean? English Bibles translate the word to "Sodomites", a word that used to be used incorrectly for homosexuals.
It is assumed that this word is composed of two words, "man" and "bed", where Bett was often the term for sex. However, it is not clear how the connection to the word "man" was seen. Was he an object or subject?

And it was not spoken by men, but ur a man. Was the man in bed with a woman or another man? Here's a small look at the word arsenokoitoi, as used by extra-bib authors:

The Philosph Philo used it around 35 A.D. to describe temple prostitution ((Philo, The Special Laws, III, VII, 40-42). Also in the 2nd century AD (Apology of Aristides, chapters 9 and 13).
In the 6th century, the then Patriarch of Constantinople, John Jejunator, wrote about anal intercourse between spouses, where this word was also used:
"In fact, many men even commit the sin of homosexuality with their wives." (Patrologiae cursus completus, Series Graeca, 88:1893-96)

As I said, only in the 6th century, the word Arsenokoitoi was equated with homosexuality, which was understood to mean anal intercourse (also with women).
Some scholars believe that Paul created a name to refer to the customers of "the soft callboys." We could call them "dirty old men."
Others translate the word as "homosexuals," but never explained what that meant. In 1958, for the first time in history, a person translated this mysterious Greek word into English, and decided that it meant homosexuals, a word that does not exist in Hebrew or Greek. But this translator made the decision for all of us who put the word homosexual in the English-language Bible for the very first time.
In the past, people used Paul's writings to support slavery, segregation, and racial segregation. People still use Paul's writings to oppress women and limit their roles in the house, in the Church, and in society. Now we have to ask ourselves, "Is it happening again?" Is a word in Greek that does not have a clear definition used to reflect prejudices of society and to condemn the homosexual children of God?

Can you not rise above your mother's failure? This is your life. Only you are responsible for your actions.
 
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LindaBerlin

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Can you not rise above your mother's failure? This is your life. Only you are responsible for your actions.

No man has the right to tell me anything. It's my life, it's my experiences, and it's my conclusions, based on both.
And, BTW, my mother did nothing wrong. It was man's law that forbids her everything.
 
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No man has the right to tell me anything. It's my life, it's my experiences, and it's my conclusions, based on both.

If you are pregnant and you have a right to kill your child why wouldn't your mother have the same right to take your life right now?
 
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LindaBerlin

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If you are pregnant and you have a right to kill your child why wouldn't your mother have the same right to take your life right now?

Use your brain, bro! Apart from the fact that my mother has have had passed away in 1983, murder is only judged in cases where someone has died. A clump of cells in the womb is not considered a life, either legally or medically. Only someone who has been BORN can be killed. That is what court rulings in Germany, Europe and the USA says. Even if Christian fundamentalists are currently trying, thanks to the majority in SCOTUS, to erase the right to abortion. They want to turn the United States into a Christian state of God, just like Islamists in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
 
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Use your brain, bro! Apart from the fact that my mother has have had passed away in 1983, murder is only judged in cases where someone has died. A clump of cells in the womb is not considered a life, either legally or medically. Only someone who has been BORN can be killed. That is what court rulings in Germany, Europe and the USA says. Even if Christian fundamentalists are currently trying, thanks to the majority in SCOTUS, to erase the right to abortion. They want to turn the United States into a Christian state of God, just like Islamists in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

You believe it's a clump of cells. If someone else believes you have no value what's the difference? Both are individual beliefs.
 
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LindaBerlin

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The pastor said homosexuality was against the divine order of creation. This is a Biblical truth.
is further warning of a “homolobby”: saying “Everywhere the criminals [people living in sin] run around from Christopher Street Day. The whole gender mess is an attack on God’s order of creation, is devilish and satanic.
This is social commentary on the LGBTQ political lobby, framed with a Biblical worldview i.e. that homosexuality is a sin and against the created order.
I myself see the political lobby as a satanic attack on once Christian nations, but this doesn't mean the Christian doesn't love the homosexual, we actually do care about them whether or not they become saved.
However, we care enough to speak truth too, and not sugarcoat sin. Just as we would call murder or lying a sin, so we call homosexuality sin.

The pastor we are talking about has been fined by a Bremen court for incitement to the people. After this verdict, the Bremen State Church will decide whether he can no longer preach (get an office job), or completely loses his office as pastor.
In my opinion, it is too lenient a verdict, because even after the indictment, he continued to rail against homosexuals, women and Muslims.
This pastor uses the Bible as a weapon against all the people he loathes. And the worst thing is that his church community follows him in it without contradiction.
 
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LindaBerlin

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You believe it's a clump of cells. If someone else believes you have no value what's the difference? Both are individual beliefs.

It is a scientific fact that it is first of all a cell clump that develops over the course of the months into a childbearing being. The sex, for example, only arises many months after procreation.
Life begins with procreation is a faith that is followed above all by Orthodox Jews, Christians and Muslims. Scientifically justified by nothing.
So what you believe is faith without evidence, what I believe is based on facts.
 
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It is a scientific fact that it is first of all a cell clump that develops over the course of the months into a childbearing being. The sex, for example, only arises many months after procreation.
Life begins with procreation is a faith that is followed above all by Orthodox Jews, Christians and Muslims. Scientifically justified by nothing.
So what you believe is faith without evidence, what I believe is based on facts.

Are you here to learn about Christianity?
 
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LindaBerlin

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Are you here to learn about Christianity?

Good question! As I have said many times, I see myself as a Christian because I believe in God and Jesus. But I do not believe in the interpretations of the Bible that are not based on facts. And above all, I do not believe some Christian churches that use their interpretation of the Bible as facts, but which in reality are nothing more than half-knowledge and prejudices.
If you think I'm not welcome to this forum, you're free to suspend or delete my account (or let the admins do it).
 
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LindaBerlin

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There is more than one way to be a Christian, I have had to learn that. And there are different Bible translations and interpretations of the bible. I was hoping to find here the Christian faith to which I could join.
But what I found was ignorance of the Bible, re-chatting of what others say, and above all prejudice.
I am a proud Christian bisexual woman who had love relationships with both men and women. And I fight for my right to be perceived as a bisexual Christian. Jesus would not have condemned me, so why do some Christians do it here?
 
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Good question! As I have said many times, I see myself as a Christian because I believe in God and Jesus. But I do not believe in the interpretations of the Bible that are not based on facts. And above all, I do not believe some Christian churches that use their interpretation of the Bible as facts, but which in reality are nothing more than half-knowledge and prejudices.
If you think I'm not welcome to this forum, you're free to suspend or delete my account (or let the admins do it).

I would assume you are as welcome here as I am. I was curious because of your views.
 
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Lukaris

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It is amazing to hear someone say that the Bible says nothing about abortion when pro life Christians cite scriptures like Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 22:10-11, Galatians 1:15 etc. as evidence of perpetual Christian faith. I earlier cited a late 1st c. Church manual that cited abortion as a type of murder according to the commandments.

You earlier cited a case of some Mormon guy supposedly only received a 10 year manslaughter case for a murder he committed at a Utah hospital. I cited what must have been the case & he was sentenced to 35 years & committed suicide in prison (of no consequence to legal justice but just for the record). I tried to research what became of his unfortunate wife & children but could not find anything but claim they ended up homeless & almost left to die. There is a social welfare system in America so I question this alleged conclusion.

Now I hear the familiar party line about the conspiracy theory that originated from a third rate novel (The Handmaid’s Tale)( taken as evidence by some )that groups are trying to create a Christian theocracy in America.

There are plenty of churches which have cut loose the 10 commandments & will welcome those who reject these commandments also & condemn those who still believe that the commandments to love God & neighbor are supported by the 10 commandments.
 
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LindaBerlin

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It is amazing to hear someone say that the Bible says nothing about abortion when pro life Christians cite scriptures like Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 22:10-11, Galatians 1:15 etc. as evidence of perpetual Christian faith.

Oh heaven, all these scriptures you quote say NO WORD TO ABORTION. They speak of God knowing someone in the womb that life and seed are sacred.
You forget that abortion was impossible in antiquity, even though there were attempts in this direction at that time. And that women had no rights over their bodies, as they were the property of father or husband.
Today, women can have abortions safely and safely, as women can decide their bodies on their own (Roe vs Wade in the US); something that fundamentalists in the US want to ban again.
 
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LindaBerlin

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As Christians we should not be having sex out of marriage. But if we are married then the child would be wanted.

So, in your opinion, should a couple not marry; who can't have children, or want to have them?
In a marriage, it is not only children who are made and born. A marriage, whether made by the state or the church, is a union between two people who love each other and want to share their lives. Sometimes both, or one of them, want children, sometimes they don't. In any case, it is the decision of the couple, not other people.
On the subject of sex before marriage:
I went into marriage chastely, my husband too. We had no idea about sexuality, and I experienced sexuality as violent and not tender. I don't blame my ex-husband, he didn't know better.
If we had both been able to gain first sexual experiences before marriage (without penetration), we would have known what we both like and don't like. And we could have talked about it openly. Either we would never have married, or we would still be a couple.
 
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Lukaris

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Oh heaven, all these scriptures you quote say NO WORD TO ABORTION. They speak of God knowing someone in the womb that life and seed are sacred.
You forget that abortion was impossible in antiquity, even though there were attempts in this direction at that time. And that women had no rights over their bodies, as they were the property of father or husband.
Today, women can have abortions safely and safely, as women can decide their bodies on their own (Roe vs Wade in the US); something that fundamentalists in the US want to ban again.
Oh heaven, all these scriptures you quote say NO WORD TO ABORTION. They speak of God knowing someone in the womb that life and seed are sacred.
You forget that abortion was impossible in antiquity, even though there were attempts in this direction at that time. And that women had no rights over their bodies, as they were the property of father or husband.
Today, women can have abortions safely and safely, as women can decide their bodies on their own (Roe vs Wade in the US); something that fundamentalists in the US want to ban again.

You keep saying that Bible verses have nothing to do with abortion & yet I also posted a church manual from about 100 AD
that says Christians are not to commit infanticide or abortion ( so I think the early Church was clear on that). What special knowledge do you have over these early Christians who followed the Bible?

You say the US Supreme Court wants to ban abortion & impose a theocracy. I have heard this nonsense for over 35 years and yet Roe v Wade is still law. Stop reading the Handmaid’s Tale.

Preaching the Gospel is for salvation not secular/social legislation ( Romans 13). The secular authorities who have promoted or banned abortion have varied from pagan, Christian (anti/abortion but often oppressive), to communists etc.

Abortion in Ancient Rome

History of abortion - Wikipedia

Christianity is pro life & preaching against adultery should be of transformation not coercive compliance. People will sin & mercy & repentance must be offered for those who become aware of it. While “back alley abortion” must not reoccur, we should not want to see anyone have to choose it to begin with.
 
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LindaBerlin

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You keep saying that Bible verses have nothing to do with abortion & yet I also posted a church manual from about 100 AD
that says Christians are not to commit infanticide or abortion ( so I think the early Church was clear on that).

On the biblical quotations: None of the quotations speaks directly about abortion, but only expresses how sacred life is.
Then to the church manual:

The word "infanticide" refers to the killing of children who are already alive. In antiquity, it was quite common to kill children, especially if they were physically or mentally disabled, too weak, or another "useless" eater. This has nothing to do with abortion. For more information, please see here:

Infanticide - Wikipedia

I quote:

Native Americans
In the Eastern Shoshone there was a scarcity of Indian women as a result of female infanticide.[109] For the Maidu Native Americans twins were so dangerous that they not only killed them, but the mother as well.[110] In the region known today as southern Texas, the Mariame Indians practiced infanticide of females on a large scale. Wives had to be obtained from neighboring groups.
 
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Lukaris

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The Book of Enoch, although not in most Bibles, was widely circulated among the early Christians. It clearly expresses an understanding of abortion to the fetus in the womb as among the forms of killing the fallen angels affected humans with. See Enoch 69:12:
The Book of Enoch, Section II

The book of Enoch is preserved as the 14th book of the Old Testament in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church:

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
 
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LindaBerlin

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The Book of Enoch, although not in most Bibles, was widely circulated among the early Christians. It clearly expresses an understanding of abortion to the fetus in the womb as among the forms of killing the fallen angels affected humans with. See Enoch 69:12:
The Book of Enoch, Section II

The book of Enoch is preserved as the 14th book of the Old Testament in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church:

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church

This book is regarded by the Christian world (Catholic and Evangelical Church, as well as evangelicals) as apocryphal, whose origin is not documented, just as little as the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Judas.
Something that is to be regarded as an unsecured source should not be proclaimed as truth. This could inadvertently make you the wrong teacher and apostate.
 
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