Different strands of Christianity?

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In reading about early Christianity, I have discovered from some sources that Christians were far from a unified group; they fragmented into diverse sects - one of which became the basic religion we are familiar with today. Apparently, that faction wasn't even the one headed by the original apostles, as Judaic Christianity pretty much disappeared after the destruction of Jerusalem, dwindling to insignificance, while Paul's rendition of Christianity started to spread and blossom.

I'm wondering if the NT itself documents these various streams of Christianity that some historians believe existed, as I've often found it hard to reconcile the idea of not a "jot and tittle" being dropped from the Law and Jesus' statement to "teach men to observe all that I command you" in Matthew with Paul's message in Galatians. Basically, I'm really struggling with the seemingly works-based ideas in the Synoptic Gospels, which seemed to be steeped in radical Judaic ideals, and the Gentile-friendly expositions of Grace Paul gives.

I believe the Holy Spirit was at work inspiring all who penned their letters or gospels in the Bible, but this logical and historical problem is still a thorn in my faith.

Any help would be welcome. :)
 

The_Joker

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Gentile Friendly Gospels? I'd like you to show us how the Gospels were more "works based" than the writings of Paul! Reading through the NT I fail to see any contradiction at all between the theologies of Jesus Christ and of Saint Paul. I think the scripture is rather clear, "He who believes in me is saved. He who believes not is dead already, because he has not believed in the name of the Son of God." Your "different strands of Christianity" thing is far fetched. Saint Paul and His Gospel is the same Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
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MrSnow

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I think that the point that these "historians" were trying to make is that Christianity as we know it was invented by a bunch of chauvinists who bullied their way into dominance, forcing everyone to accept their doctrines of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, showing that "orthodox" christianity was just one of many groups, and that the gnostic gospels are probably more accurate, that Jesus probably married Mary Magdalene, that Jesus was not the Word made Flesh, etc.

I believe that the New Testament epistles are just extensions of what Jesus taught. I am especially partial to John's epistles. In 1Jn, we are told to hold fast to the commandment that we have heard from the beginning (seems like works/law-based stuff), and that commandment is that we love one another (sounds a lot like Jesus's teaching about the greatest commandment, and a lot like grace). The New Testament "10 commandments" is a list of 1 commandment: love. In order to love we must deny ourselves. Part of denying ourselves is humbling ourselves and admitting our sins and sinfulness. It also means trusting not in ourselves, but in Christ to ransom us from the power of sin.

Love is a pretty over-arching command, and I believe that the entirety of the New Covenant and all the teachings of Christ and the apostles boil down to that one word - love.

I see no contradiction between Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, John, Jude, etc.
 
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cyberlizard

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In reading about early Christianity, I have discovered from some sources that Christians were far from a unified group; they fragmented into diverse sects - one of which became the basic religion we are familiar with today. Apparently, that faction wasn't even the one headed by the original apostles, as Judaic Christianity pretty much disappeared after the destruction of Jerusalem, dwindling to insignificance, while Paul's rendition of Christianity started to spread and blossom.

I'm wondering if the NT itself documents these various streams of Christianity that some historians believe existed, as I've often found it hard to reconcile the idea of not a "jot and tittle" being dropped from the Law and Jesus' statement to "teach men to observe all that I command you" in Matthew with Paul's message in Galatians. Basically, I'm really struggling with the seemingly works-based ideas in the Synoptic Gospels, which seemed to be steeped in radical Judaic ideals, and the Gentile-friendly expositions of Grace Paul gives.

I believe the Holy Spirit was at work inspiring all who penned their letters or gospels in the Bible, but this logical and historical problem is still a thorn in my faith.

Any help would be welcome. :)


i think you have noticed something that usually takes years to notice. There is a huge problem though. Whilst it appears that there was the gospel of the apostles to the Jews and the gospel of the apostle Paul to the non-Jews, there was only one gospel.

the idea that the gospels promote a 'work-based' righteousness is both true and false. Within the 2nd temple period, there existed multiple strands of Judaism, the most commonly known ones being the Separatist, the Sadducean, the Essene, the Qumran community. There were also a number more. The other most important jewish sect of the time was called 'ha-derekh' - 'the-way'. These were the messianic jews. The important thing about all these sects of judaism was that the prime authority was the Torah, the only difference between them being the authority of their rabbis to interpret the Torah properly (with the exception of the Sadduceans), rather than making a fudge of it, or completely mis-interpreting it.... this is what Jesus means when he says, "I have not come to abolish the Torah, but to fulfil it". The people who heard what he said then would have understood him perfectly as the concepts of fulfilling the Torah and destroying/abolishing the Torah were well known concepts within the writings of the sages and the mentality of the people of the day. This was not some new idea that Jesus invented.

But you mention a 'work-based' gospel. In actuality, all of the Judaisms outlined above, taught the same thing. Life in the age to come was only possible by becoming a covenant member. For most of the judaisms, the first step to becoming a covenant member was to be either born Jewish ('under Law') (by being circumcised at eight days), or you became a convert to judaism by being circumcised (works of law) as an adult (which is what was taught by the seperatists (pharisees) and what happened between Paul and Timothy.)

Once a member of this covenant people (by virtue of circumcision), you're place in the age to come was secured (with provisions) and you were then obliged to keep Torah (the gift that comes from being a covenant member). The Talmud records 'all Israel has a share in the age to come'. Paul makes a similar comment, when he says, 'so shall all Israel be saved'. We see the teachings of Jesus as being almost exclusively to Jews, and so we have to understand there mentality... they already believed they were 'saved' but rewards are a different mattter. Gifts are freely given (birthright is something no one has control over so the early Jewish sects interpreted their birth covenant status as a matter of God's grace - not a matter of works.) That said, rewards are earned, and that is at the heart of much of Jesus' teaching, particularly the stuff around the sermon on the mount (most easily placed Matthew 5 onwards.)

But there is another path.... The members of ha-derekh taught that gentiles could partake of this covenant (the one ade with Abraham, with the later gift of Torah) status simply by putting their trust into action (faith) and throwing themselves on the mercy of God who through His Messiah became a light to the nations. The apostles taught that by exercising faith, you stepped into the same ilk as the fathers of the Jewish faith, e.g. Abraham, as up until he circumcised himself he was a gentile, then becoming a covenant member. The promise had to be seen in action. This is what James meant when saying Abraham was justified by his works. Paul also uses the passage, but exegetes it differently (though both explanations are equally valid depending on whether you're talking to Jews or non-Jews.) (the idea that two peopel exegete the passage differently is only problematic to westerners with their greek way of thinking.... back then the same verse could hold differing views and both would be equally valid: this idea of exegesis is referred to as a 'drash' in hebraic thinking.)

All sects understood it quite well - a place in the age to come was purely by God's grace, and made to stand by faith in action. As Habbukuk says, 'the righteous will live by faithing' (I am sorry I have to resort the torturing the english language but in hebrew faith is a verb, and in greek the root word is also a verb.... but in english there is no verb for 'faith'.)


Steve

p.s. i will stop now and give someone else a look in, but i would recommend books like the following, Paul and Palestinian Judaism, Paul the Law and the Jewish People, Jesus and Judaism, What St. Paul really said: Was Paul of Tarsus the real founder of christianity?. the above books are quite deep, but the following ones are a little easier (but just as informative) - Meet the Rabbis, The Parables, Jesus the Jewish Theologian, The sage from galilee,
 
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Thanks for the thoughtful replies.

I had already looked up those books, Steve, but never bought them. I think I should. I'm a big fan of N.T Wright in general. What personal understanding have you come to in your own walk for this works/faith/grace issue?

In Luke 10:25-27 shows Jesus' precise response to what one must do to inherit eternal life; i.e. to attain salvation and spend eternity in heaven. Jesus had him recite "The Law" from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) which requires a person to: Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. This is a slight misquotation from Deuteronomy 6:5: "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." (NKJ) Love their neighbor as they love themselves. This is derived from Leviticus 19:18: "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself..."

Then there's these:

Matthew 5:20: "...unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven" The Rheims New Testament translates the Greek as "unless your justice abound more...".

Matthew 7:12: "...do onto others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." One might assume that by following this "Golden rule", one meets all of the requirements of the Hebrew scriptures, and thus might be saved.

Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

I just don't want to twist all of Jesus' words into the reformed protestant understanding of Salvation that I'm used to and feel comfortable with. I've heard reformed folk saying passages like these only refer to Sanctification, but I don't see how that can be. Jesus is clearly referring to Eternal Life. Then again, if salvation is based on what we do, how is Christianity different from any other religion, and what was the purpose of Jesus' death and resurrection?
 
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Radagast

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I'm wondering if the NT itself documents these various streams of Christianity that some historians believe existed, as I've often found it hard to reconcile the idea of not a "jot and tittle" being dropped from the Law and Jesus' statement to "teach men to observe all that I command you" in Matthew with Paul's message in Galatians...

If you read Acts, you will see that Peter also agreed that the clean/unclean food laws no longer applied, and you will read about the apostolic council where they agreed the gentiles didn't have to follow them.

The "streams of Christianity" argument tends to come from people who'd like to drop Paul from the NT.
 
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pinetree

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If you read Acts, you will see that Peter also agreed that the clean/unclean food laws no longer applied, and you will read about the apostolic council where they agreed the gentiles didn't have to follow them.

The "streams of Christianity" argument tends to come from people who'd like to drop Paul from the NT.
Excellent point!

Why would anyone take all that Moses said as scripture,but not Paul?


Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.
 
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cyberlizard

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the gentiles may be technically exempt from the 'food laws' as per the law God gave to Moses, but it should be remembered that the clean and unclean food divide existed long before the giving of Torah.

as to Peter saying he could eat anything he wanted, I would suggest you go back to the passage and start again. Note Peter's words... the vision was about people, not animals, peter said he had never eaten anything unclean (not on the list of foods defined by Torah), or common (foods which were on the list but had been defiled in some way.) As the scripture says all things are permissible (e.g. unclean foods), but not all things are beneficial.

the problem with Paul's writings is they appear to directly contradict what Moses says (which Jesus taught was completely authoritive), what Jesus taught (who said not a jot or tittle would pass from the Torah's authority under heaven and earth pass away), and even direct comments by other apostles. There is then only one conclusion, either they are wrong and Paul is right, or Paul is right and we don't understand what he is saying properly. I tend to put my money (not that I gamble) on the latter idea.


Steve
 
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Matthew 5:20: "...unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven" The Rheims New Testament translates the Greek as "unless your justice abound more...".

And the common response is, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus often said such things, that it is easier for a camel to enter into the needle of an eye than for a rich man to enter heaven, etc. However, when men objected, his response was "By man it is impossible, but by God all things are possible." Jesus says multiple times, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." You can talk about "reformed protestant theology" and break everything down into "strands" or "misquotations" or whatever the heck else tickles your fancy. However, it doesn't change the simple facts of this case.

Jesus had him recite "The Law" from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) which requires a person to: Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. This is a slight misquotation from Deuteronomy 6:5: "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." (NKJ) Love their neighbor as they love themselves. This is derived from Leviticus 19:18: "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself..."

Well good for you in pointing all of this out. Did you read that in a book recently?
 
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pinetree

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the gentiles may be technically exempt from the 'food laws' as per the law God gave to Moses, but it should be remembered that the clean and unclean food divide existed long before the giving of Torah.

as to Peter saying he could eat anything he wanted, I would suggest you go back to the passage and start again. Note Peter's words... the vision was about people, not animals, peter said he had never eaten anything unclean (not on the list of foods defined by Torah), or common (foods which were on the list but had been defiled in some way.) As the scripture says all things are permissible (e.g. unclean foods), but not all things are beneficial.

the problem with Paul's writings is they appear to directly contradict what Moses says (which Jesus taught was completely authoritive), what Jesus taught (who said not a jot or tittle would pass from the Torah's authority under heaven and earth pass away), and even direct comments by other apostles. There is then only one conclusion, either they are wrong and Paul is right, or Paul is right and we don't understand what he is saying properly. I tend to put my money (not that I gamble) on the latter idea.


Steve
Hmmm,what would make a Jewish pharisee say this,,,looks pretty clear to me..I think most understand just what Paul is saying...


Galatians 2:11-14
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?


Galatians4:8-11
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

Colossians2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Jesus said this..

John 7:19
Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?"


Did not Jesus know the law would be nailed to the cross anyway?

Did he not know, that no one could keep the law?

When Jesus chose Paul,he would have been smart enought to know what Paul would teach.

__________________
 
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This is all very confusing. :(

Why is the faith so complex? I don't know what to believe. I feel like the pagan, Caesar, asking: "What is truth?"

I wish I could go back to when I was new to the faith, when I had read less of the Bible. When I was simply excited about God being real, about Him loving me. Now I don't even know how one is saved and I'm worried that the concept of Grace I held so dear is simply down to my lack of historical and scriptural knowledge... The years of reading theology and reading the Bible over and over have ruined everything. Is it works or faith that saves?

Well, I suppose I'll continue to trust Christ, somehow. Cling on.
 
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pinetree

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This is all very confusing. :(

Why is the faith so complex? I don't know what to believe. I feel like the pagan, Caesar, asking: "What is truth?"

I wish I could go back to when I was new to the faith, when I had read less of the Bible. When I was simply excited about God being real, about Him loving me. Now I don't even know how one is saved and I'm worried that the concept of Grace I held so dear is simply down to my lack of historical and scriptural knowledge... The years of reading theology and reading the Bible over and over have ruined everything. Is it works or faith that saves?

Well, I suppose I'll continue to trust Christ, somehow. Cling on.
Believe me bro,you are saved,and stand in pure grace,not by works!

Works are an outcome of our faith,but Christ in you,is the bottom line.

Even works,are done by grace..

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.


Scripture is clear,that Christ ended the law as a means of righteousness...

We have been justified by faith,and faith alone.
 
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pinetree

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God will give grace to do his will..

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.


But remember,if it is by grace,it is from his power,not ours.

And all the works in the universe,dont change the inner man,God does that..
Romans 2:29
No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

Notice how it says..not by written code..not for flesh..

The code was for the natural man,the kingdom of God is not eat and drink,but righteousness,peace and joy of the holy Spirit!

It is now an internal thing,where God does it.



 
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pinetree

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Yaknow bro...
To tell ya the truth, sounds like your in an experience that was found in the Bible.

Don't be confused by "seeming complexities" in scripture of laws and strivings in the flesh. 2 Corinthians says don't be removed from the simplicity of you devotion to Christ.

Paul said.

Colossians2:4
I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

He was fighting those who wanted to remain under law.

It is the same thing today,the law puts emnity between you and God,so that is wht Paul warned against reverting back to the old..in Colossians.

Also in Galatians..

1:6
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Read on in the book.

Paul was confronting those who sought to have people walk in the old way of the law..

The law works wrath..

Romans 4:15
because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


Herre is the greek word for wrath..notice what it does to the soul..

1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent
emotion, but esp. anger
3) anger, wrath, indignation
4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
4a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates


Thas why we are no longer under law..now it is grace.
 
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In reading about early Christianity, I have discovered from some sources that Christians were far from a unified group; they fragmented into diverse sects - one of which became the basic religion we are familiar with today. Apparently, that faction wasn't even the one headed by the original apostles, as Judaic Christianity pretty much disappeared after the destruction of Jerusalem, dwindling to insignificance, while Paul's rendition of Christianity started to spread and blossom.

I'm wondering if the NT itself documents these various streams of Christianity that some historians believe existed, as I've often found it hard to reconcile the idea of not a "jot and tittle" being dropped from the Law and Jesus' statement to "teach men to observe all that I command you" in Matthew with Paul's message in Galatians. Basically, I'm really struggling with the seemingly works-based ideas in the Synoptic Gospels, which seemed to be steeped in radical Judaic ideals, and the Gentile-friendly expositions of Grace Paul gives.

I believe the Holy Spirit was at work inspiring all who penned their letters or gospels in the Bible, but this logical and historical problem is still a thorn in my faith.

Any help would be welcome. :)

Different faith groups evolve in different ways. Some will always say they are “of Apollos” and some “of Paul” and the truly self-righteous will claim they are only “of Christ” and, of course, their only creed is the Bible.

God may not be as concerned about denominationalism as we are. After all, He acknowledged all twelve of the “tribes” of Israel, some who said shibboleth and some who said sibboleth. We are humans and tend to gravitate toward those who are most like us.

It is the peripheral issues that separate us. The important thing is that we hold true to the essentials.

~Jim
If you ask enough people you’ll find someone who will tell you to do what you are going to do anyway.
 
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In reading about early Christianity, I have discovered from some sources that Christians were far from a unified group; they fragmented into diverse sects - one of which became the basic religion we are familiar with today. Apparently, that faction wasn't even the one headed by the original apostles, as Judaic Christianity pretty much disappeared after the destruction of Jerusalem, dwindling to insignificance, while Paul's rendition of Christianity started to spread and blossom.

I'm wondering if the NT itself documents these various streams of Christianity that some historians believe existed, as I've often found it hard to reconcile the idea of not a "jot and tittle" being dropped from the Law and Jesus' statement to "teach men to observe all that I command you" in Matthew with Paul's message in Galatians. Basically, I'm really struggling with the seemingly works-based ideas in the Synoptic Gospels, which seemed to be steeped in radical Judaic ideals, and the Gentile-friendly expositions of Grace Paul gives.

I believe the Holy Spirit was at work inspiring all who penned their letters or gospels in the Bible, but this logical and historical problem is still a thorn in my faith.

Any help would be welcome. :)

What you're experiencing sounds like you are noticing what God says versus what man says. cyberlizard gave you a very good answer. Checking what others have to say is not bad, but remember look on both sides. Continue to seek God and ask Him to explain it to you and show you the meshing of what may seem like conflict but is not. I know that's how it all began with me. :)
 
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Simon_Templar

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In reading about early Christianity, I have discovered from some sources that Christians were far from a unified group; they fragmented into diverse sects - one of which became the basic religion we are familiar with today. Apparently, that faction wasn't even the one headed by the original apostles, as Judaic Christianity pretty much disappeared after the destruction of Jerusalem, dwindling to insignificance, while Paul's rendition of Christianity started to spread and blossom.

I'm wondering if the NT itself documents these various streams of Christianity that some historians believe existed, as I've often found it hard to reconcile the idea of not a "jot and tittle" being dropped from the Law and Jesus' statement to "teach men to observe all that I command you" in Matthew with Paul's message in Galatians. Basically, I'm really struggling with the seemingly works-based ideas in the Synoptic Gospels, which seemed to be steeped in radical Judaic ideals, and the Gentile-friendly expositions of Grace Paul gives.

I believe the Holy Spirit was at work inspiring all who penned their letters or gospels in the Bible, but this logical and historical problem is still a thorn in my faith.

Any help would be welcome. :)

you should try reading what the early Christians themselves had to say, rather than reading books written by people 2000 years later who think they know better, and many of whom have personal agendas and axes to grind.

I recommend as a starting point, polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, and Justin Martyr. Clement of Rome is also good.

All of those men were very early on. In fact three of them have direct ties to the apostles (clement, ignatius and polycarp).

infact, here is a link to a website where you can read them all online (or print them off if you prefer)
http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

The first volume on the list is the "apostolic fathers" this refers to the first generation of Christian writers who were writing during and immediately after the apostolic age. It also refers to the fact that Ignatius and Polycarp were both students of the apostle John, and were likely appointed as bishops by the apostles and during the life time of John. In fact, the letter to the Church of Smyrna in Revelation was written while Polycarp was the leader of that Church, and his martyrdom is likely fortold in the letter. Modern scholars are more uncertain about the identity of Clement of Rome, but several ancient sources say he is the same clement that Paul mentions in the New Testament and other ancient sources also say that he was appointed head of the Roman Church by the Apostle Peter.

Thus the implication that some try to make that the Church already by this time had changed significantly doesn't really hold historical water because these men were taught by the apostles themselves and appointed by the apostles.

So, rather than reading some modern guy's opinion, go read the original Christians and see what they really believed and what they had to say.
 
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