Different state past

[Tiberius]

Clearly different? lol, you;ve never provided any evidence at all for your position. You might try that before you start saying that it is clear.

 

[TeddyReceptus]

No. There is no evidence of past decays.
There is stuff that was here that is now in a state of decay, from what I can tell.

No. If it is here, then it was here at the onset of this state! IF IT IS NOT HERE, IT WASN'T!
No need. We do not need to use decay as the origin of any material we see, that took longer than 4400 years to decay. Simple.
No. Stop coloring what you see.
I been there done that. Nothing new here.
No knowledge is involved in the sulllying stuff of so called science.

Dad you keep saying there's no "need" for any sort of technical explanations, but clearly the science fools keep asking questions. So clearly there is a need. I'm trying to help you by showing you how to provide them answers that will at least make it look like there's some technical information to be gained from this.

I mean you and I both know that it boils down to God Did It and God can do ANYTHING, so it doesn't matter in the end.

But the Science Fools still want to know the "mechanisms". So I'm trying to help you flesh out what this alternative physical reality was like.

YOU yourself correctly pointed out that there were "processes" in the Former State, so that means we have to explain to the Science Fools what those processes likely looked like (on the rare occasion that God ran a "process" and didn't just whammy something into existence because He can.)

So you and I both know there's not real "need" for information in this discussion, I'm just throwing a sop to the folks who can't think as expansively as you can. They're limited. You're out there working on the edges.

I'm trying to be a bridge between where they are and the space out where you're at.

 

[Farinata]

You missed it.

I'll ask it again. Why do you believe in God and the absolute truth of the Bible? You must have a good reason; it only affects and colors your entire life. You must have spent a long time thinking about it so enlighten me. Pretend you're presenting an argument before someone perfectly neutral about why they should convert.

1 Peter 3:15 "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

 

[dad]

I'll ask it again. Why do you believe in God and the absolute truth of the Bible? You must have a good reason; it only affects and colors your entire life. You must have spent a long time thinking about it so enlighten me. Pretend you're presenting an argument before someone perfectly neutral about why they should convert.

Trying to shift the burden of proof? The evidences man has for the truth of the spiritual realm are not to be compared with the claims of science and what evidence is needed in that realm. So, give unto the fishbowl what is the fishbowl's, and unto God what is God's!

 

[dad]

Clearly different? lol, you;ve never provided any evidence at all for your position. You might try that before you start saying that it is clear.

In the bible and early history, yes. Clearly.

 

[dad]

Dad you keep saying there's no "need" for any sort of technical explanations, but clearly the science fools keep asking questions. So clearly there is a need. I'm trying to help you by showing you how to provide them answers that will at least make it look like there's some technical information to be gained from this.

Technical explanations for...what?

I mean you and I both know that it boils down to God Did It and God can do ANYTHING, so it doesn't matter in the end.

Wrong. It matters when so called science claims fail like dominoes.

But the Science Fools still want to know the "mechanisms". So I'm trying to help you flesh out what this alternative physical reality was like.

If you mean the state of the earth past, forget physical only.

YOU yourself correctly pointed out that there were "processes" in the Former State, so that means we have to explain to the Science Fools what those processes likely looked like (on the rare occasion that God ran a "process" and didn't just whammy something into existence because He can.)

False. We do not need to know processes of a future or former state. Science doesn't even hardly know it's way around this present state fishbowl, don't try to get fancy!

 

[Farinata]

Trying to shift the burden of proof? The evidences man has for the truth of the spiritual realm are not to be compared with the claims of science and what evidence is needed in that realm. So, give unto the fishbowl what is the fishbowl's, and unto God what is God's!

This has nothing to do with the burden of proof. Forget the science and everything else in our past discussion. I'm asking you a very direct and honest question: why do you believe in God and the absolute truth of the bible?

 

[AV1611VET]

This has nothing to do with the burden of proof. Forget the science and everything else in our past discussion. I'm asking you a very direct and honest question: why do you believe in God and the absolute truth of the bible?

I can't answer for dad, but for me and my wife, just before we got saved, we were discussing such things as abortion, teen pregnancy, death penalty and so on and so forth.

In each of the above, we could not come to a conclusion as to what to believe.

But after we got saved, those issues "lined up" in our hearts, and we had this peace about things that we didn't have before.

I like to describe it to educatees as a kind of cessation of cognitive dissonance, where issues in our lives "polarize" and line-up in accordance with the Bible.

I assume this is what David referred to as:

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

... and what Paul refers to as:

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

It's that initial rush of peace that accommodates that falling away of bewilderment as to what should be considered right and what should be considered wrong.

 

[dad]

This has nothing to do with the burden of proof. Forget the science and everything else in our past discussion. I'm asking you a very direct and honest question: why do you believe in God and the absolute truth of the bible?

25 billion people that have ever lived, or whatever number it may be, all were different. Like stars are different. The manifestation of God in each life was different. My reasons are different from another guy's. If a person heeds the spirit and call and words of God that are revealed to them, then they move on according to the time of life, and experiences that they are in.

A naysayer will hear a testimony and claim that it is a figment of the imagination, or made up lie, etc. A doubter will say that the miracles last Thursday never happened. A man without a spiritual awakening as of yet will deny all things spiritual. A person that wants to disbelieve the events that were recorded and in the bible, will do so for no reason. People that want to glaze out and deny the clear fulfilled prophesies of the bible, will do so.

If any man come to me, and follow me, Jesus indicated, he will know whether these things be true.


The tests for science claims are not like that. They claim that the daughter material came to exist totally by present state decay for example. That cannot be proven. For those seeking and willing to come to God, He can and is, and has been proven! The proofs are for the person, not someone observing him.

 

[TeddyReceptus]

I can't answer for dad, but for me and my wife, just before we got saved, we were discussing such things as abortion, teen pregnancy, death penalty and so on and so forth.

In each of the above, we could not come to a conclusion as to what to believe.

But after we got saved, those issues "lined up" in our hearts, and we had this peace about things that we didn't have before.

Do you mind if I ask: are you OK with the death penalty or against it?

Are there a lot of "unsaved" people who are in favor of teen pregnancy? It seems like a pretty easy call to make, even if you aren't saved.

As for abortion, well that's a tricky one; but I don't think anyone who gets an abortion is really "for" the procedure. I don't think anyone actually "wants" to get an abortion.

But that's a much easier call to make from a religious stand point.

It's that initial rush of peace that accommodates that falling away of bewilderment as to what should be considered right and what should be considered wrong.

It does feel good to not have to struggle with big questions anymore, doesn't it?

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you mind if I ask: are you OK with the death penalty or against it?

I'm OK with it.

 

[TeddyReceptus]

I'm OK with it.

So I have a couple additional questions:

If this was a tough question for you before you got saved, does that mean you were on the fence about it and weren't sure if you were OK with the state killing someone on your behalf because they broke some laws?

How does "salvation" make that an easier item to think about and make decisions on?

I would think that becoming a born-again Christian would temper your feelings toward others and make that a harder decision to make. You know the whole "let he who is without sin..." thing.

 

[AV1611VET]

So I have a couple additional questions:

How did I know that?

If this was a tough question for you before you got saved, does that mean you were on the fence about it and weren't sure if you were OK with the state killing someone on your behalf because they broke some laws?

I don't quite understand what you mean, but for the record -- yes, we were on the fence about the death penalty, as some were for it and some were against it.

As I said, before we were saved, this was a matter of cognitive dissonance.

How does "salvation" make that an easier item to think about and make decisions on?

Like I said, things in my mind "polarized," and cognitive dissonance disappeared.

The day I was saved, I actually called the lady who led us to Christ on the phone and asked her specific questions about were we stood on issues:

• death penalty
• homosexuality
• gun control
• abortion
• drinking
• premarital sex

... and she was straightforward with her answers, and it all just "made sense" to my wife and I for the first time ever.

I would think that becoming a born-again Christian would temper your feelings toward others and make that a harder decision to make.

For a babe-in-Christ, perhaps; but as I said, it was "instantly okay" with us from that time forward.

You know the whole "let he who is without sin..." thing.

By the time we heard that passage explained as a refutation to our beliefs, we had gotten a good dose of dispensational theology, which effectively "immunized" us from the return of cognitive dissonance.

 

[TeddyReceptus]

How did I know that?

I don't quite understand what you mean, but for the record -- yes, we were on the fence about the death penalty, as some were for it and some were against it.

As I said, before we were saved, this was a matter of cognitive dissonance.

Like I said, things in my mind "polarized," and cognitive dissonance disappeared.

The day I was saved, I actually called the lady who led us to Christ on the phone and asked her specific questions about were we stood on issues:

• death penalty
• homosexuality
• gun control
• abortion
• drinking
• premarital sex

... and she was straightforward with her answers, and it all just "made sense" to my wife and I for the first time ever.

For a babe-in-Christ, perhaps; but as I said, it was "instantly okay" with us from that time forward.


By the time we heard that passage explained as a refutation to our beliefs, we had gotten a good dose of dispensational theology, which effectively "immunized" us from the return of cognitive dissonance.

So salvation for you means you are now OK with the state killing someone on your behalf, but were uncertain before being saved?

And how does "dispensational theology" work on those terms? I thought we were no longer under the Dispensation of Law but now under "Grace". (I hope I got that right). So how does Dispensationalism work to allow you to suddenly be "OK" with capital punishment

(I don't have a problem with capital punishment, personally, but it's a hard question and if I were on a jury that had to decide a death penalty case I guarantee you I'd be scared of making the wrong decision. It's a hard one. I'm just curious how "salvation" led you from being on the fence about it--ie being more prone to mercy-- to a position where you don't feel conflicted?)

 

[TeddyReceptus]

The day I was saved, I actually called the lady who led us to Christ on the phone and asked her specific questions about were we stood on issues:

• gun control

Now I gotta assume you are against guns, right? "Those who live by the sword..." and all that?

 

[CaliforniaSun]

How did I know that?

I don't quite understand what you mean, but for the record -- yes, we were on the fence about the death penalty, as some were for it and some were against it.

As I said, before we were saved, this was a matter of cognitive dissonance.

Like I said, things in my mind "polarized," and cognitive dissonance disappeared.

The day I was saved, I actually called the lady who led us to Christ on the phone and asked her specific questions about were we stood on issues:

• death penalty
• homosexuality
• gun control
• abortion
• drinking
• premarital sex

... and she was straightforward with her answers, and it all just "made sense" to my wife and I for the first time ever.

For a babe-in-Christ, perhaps; but as I said, it was "instantly okay" with us from that time forward.


By the time we heard that passage explained as a refutation to our beliefs, we had gotten a good dose of dispensational theology, which effectively "immunized" us from the return of cognitive dissonance.

Which is the sole reason "dispensation theology" exists in the first place.

 

[AV1611VET]

So salvation for you means you are now OK with the state killing someone on your behalf, but were uncertain before being saved?

What do you mean by 'the state' killing someone?

I personally believe the next-of-kin should do the job; but if it is done by a state employee paid with my tax dollars, so be it.

And how does "dispensational theology" work on those terms? I thought we were no longer under the Dispensation of Law but now under "Grace". (I hope I got that right). So how does Dispensationalism work to allow you to suddenly be "OK" with capital punishment

The death penalty was enacted long before the Law came about.

Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Notice that the death penalty is being enacted at the start of the dispensation of Human Government ... two dispensations before the Law.

Just for clarity, the dispensations, and God's judgments that ended them, are as follows:

1. Innocence → expulsion from Garden of Eden
2. Conscience → the Flood
3. Human Government → confusion of tongues @ tower of Babel
4. Promise → Egyptian captivity
5. Law → Jesus took our place on the Cross
6. Grace → Tribulation period
7. Kingdom → Great White Throne Judgment

Notice that the death penalty is enacted at the beginning of the third dispensation, and has nothing to do with the fifth dispensation in Moses' time.

In fact, the fifth dispensation simply reiterates the death penalty -- (a life for a life).

(I don't have a problem with capital punishment, personally, but it's a hard question and if I were on a jury that had to decide a death penalty case I guarantee you I'd be scared of making the wrong decision.

This is where we need God's assistance.

After all, He is the One Who established it, and we need Him to assist us in carrying it out.

It's a hard one. I'm just curious how "salvation" led you from being on the fence about it--ie being more prone to mercy-- to a position where you don't feel conflicted?)

Again, a "polarization effect" took place, and the conflicts that existed prior to salvation disappeared.

 

[AV1611VET]

[/list]
Now I gotta assume you are against guns, right? "Those who live by the sword..." and all that?

-- Teddy, have you forgotten why we are having this conversation?

You wanted to know why I believe in God and the Bible.

My answer is because I experienced peace and joy when I asked Christ to save me.

You are now taking this down another road, and I suspect it is because the devil wants you to forget my answer.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

 

[AV1611VET]

Which is the sole reason "dispensation theology" exists in the first place.

I will not argue that that would be an atheistic assumption.

I would assume everything looks different on the outside, looking in.

That's why people who are in war zones sometimes get caught and accused of being a spy, when they are really working for MSNBC.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

-- Teddy, have you forgotten why we are having this conversation?

You wanted to know why I believe in God and the Bible.

My answer is because I experienced peace and joy when I asked Christ to save me.

You are now taking this down another road, and I suspect it is because the devil wants you to forget my answer.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

The devil made him do it?