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dad

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The bible past does not align with present state laws and forces, nor does the future it mentions. We are told this is a temporary state even. With different laws in place the creation and evolving from kinds and the flood etc make perfect sense. Science cannot prove what laws used to exist. I have given people the opportunity for years to prove a same state past. It is now very clear that science cannot do that and does not know.

If someone is new to the concept and would like to step up into the ring and try......here is your chance.
 

dad

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I know I should just ignore this, but I can't help myself sometimes.

My guess is your theory is based on opinion and your interpretation of the bible. Am I wrong?
The records of the bible and also the earliest human civilizations of Egypt and Sumer agree in some points. But it is no theory that science does not know and cannot prove the state of the past or future. That is obvious fact.

Since they do not know then, all models based on a belief in a same state past are dead in the water.
 
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dad

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So if I've got this right, you can't prove it, and neither can science. Is this correct?
The bible is clear. Trees that grew faster than anything possible now. People living a thousand years....a world of water and land separating...no great heat....an ark thousands of years ago with all kinds that produced all we now see...etc etc.

The spirits that lived with men in Egypt and the bible are another indication. So the only proof man has agrees with me.


Science works from the present state...nothing more. Any models of the distant universe or far past stem only from extrapolations of that belief.
 
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Incariol

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Science works from the present state...nothing more. Any models of the distant universe or far past stem only from extrapolations of that belief.

So we can conclude that a different past state is true scientifically. Great. I'm glad we resolved this issue.
 
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dad

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Hey look, this thread has nothing to do with science and belongs in a theology subforum.
Science involves knowing. The state of the past is not known by so called science. It is known by the records of history including especially God's.

Science claims to know and spews out anti bible alternative creation stories as a matter of course. Once we expose that as not being science then science cannot belong in a science forum!
 
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Hobz

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So basically I believe you (or your interpretation of the Bible) or I can believe 100+ years of scientific progress carried out by educated professionals the world over?

For those that actually care:
Petrov, Yu. V.; Nazarov, A. I., Onegin, M. S., Sakhnovsky, E. G. (2006). "Natural nuclear reactor at Oklo and variation of fundamental constants: Computation of neutronics of a fresh core". Physical Review C 74 (6): 064610.

I'm stepping out of here now, this is going to rapidly degenerate into nonsense.

Dad if it makes you feel better, I believe you. (But only till next Tuesday when the present state laws are changed and my memories are replaced.)
 
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dad

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So basically I believe you (or your interpretation of the Bible) or I can believe 100+ years of scientific progress carried out by educated professionals the world over?
Belief is the key word there. Evience man, got any?

Today even the most massive and concentrated uranium deposit cannot become a nuclear reactor, because the
uranium 235 concentration, at less than
1 percent, is just too low.

1[so they assume that differences existed..proof?]


But this isotope
is radioactive and decays about six times
faster than does uranium 238, which indicates
that the fissile fraction was much
higher in the distant past. For example,
two billion years ago (about when the
Oklo deposit formed) uranium 235 must
have constituted approximately 3 percent,
2
["Must have"??? Prove it]



The third important ingredient is a
neutron “moderator,” a substance that
can slow the neutrons given off when a
uranium nucleus splits so that they are
more apt to induce other uranium nuclei
to break apart

3[so we need water every few hours for millions of years?]



Cowan described, for example, how
some of the neutrons released during the
fission of uranium 235 were captured by
the more abundant uranium 238, which
became uranium 239 and, after emitting
two electrons, turned into plutonium
239.

4[after being kissed by the tooth fairy?]



Although almost all this
material, which has a 24,000-year halflife,
has since disappeared (primarily
through natural radioactive decay),
5[ah, the case of the missing stuff-prove it was here]

The
abundance of those lighter elements allowed
scientists to deduce that fission
reactions must have gone on for hundreds
of thousands of years.
6
[missing stuff forces same state past conclusion!]

From the
amount of uranium 235 'consumed', they
calculated the total energy released,
15,000 megawatt-years, and from this
and other evidence were able to work out
the average power output,
7
[present state calculations]

It is truly amazing that more than a
dozen natural reactors spontaneously
sprang into existence and that they managed
to maintain a modest power output
for perhaps a few hundred millennia.
8
[truly amazing indeed]



Xenon
is extremely rare, which allows scientists
to use it to detect and trace nuclear
reactions, even those that occurred in
primitive meteorites before the solar system
came into existence.
To analyze the isotopic composition
9
[attribute all this gas to same state causes...absurd]



We applied this technique to many
tiny spots on our lone available fragment
of Oklo rock, only one millimeter thick
and four millimeters across.
10
[all this fable based on a teensy fragment. wow]


The second epiphany was that the extracted
gas had a significantly different
isotopic makeup from what is usually
produced in nuclear reactors.
11
[so there was a difference...from what we now see]


'seemingly' lost a large portion of the xenon
136 and 134 that would certainly
have been created from fission, whereas
the lighter varieties of the element were
modified to a lesser extent.
12
[large amount of missing stuff]


For example,
measured with respect to the
amount of xenon 132 present, the depletion
of xenon 136 (being four atomicmass
units heavier) would have been
twice that of xenon 134 (two atomic mass
units heavier) if physical sorting had operated.
We did not see that pattern.

13
[IF physical sorting of the present kind existed...who says it did? so now we need to look at sorting in the former state as a possible cause rather than reaction]


None of the xenon isotopes
we measured were the direct result
of uranium fission. Rather they were the
products of the decay of radioactive isotopes
of iodine, which in turn were
formed from radioactive tellurium and
so forth, according to a well-known sequence
of nuclear reactions that gives
rise to stable xenon.

14 [this became that and that became this and on and on in a same state dream fest]

xenon
136 began at Oklo only about a
minute after the onset of self-sustained
fi ssion. An hour later the next lighter
stable isotope, xenon 134, appeared.
Then, some days after the start of fission,
xenon 132 and 131 came on the
scene. Finally, after millions of years,
and well after the nuclear chain reactions
terminated, xenon 129 formed.

15 [woulda coulda]

The
most likely mechanism involves the action
of groundwater, which presumably
boiled away after the temperature
reached some critical level.


16[same state speculation]

very likely they pulsed
on and off in some fashion, and large
quantities of water 'must have' been moving
through these rocks—enough to
wash away some of the xenon precursors,
tellurium and iodine, which are
water-soluble.


17[large quantities of water must have...must have ..must have...same state religion]


another—it is
unlikely that aluminum phosphate minerals
were present before the Oklo reactors
began operating.

18[says who?]


Instead those
grains of aluminum phosphate 'probably'
formed in place through the action of the
nuclear-heated water, once it had cooled
to about 300 degrees Celsius.

19[speculation in the extreme]



During each active period of operation
of an Oklo reactor and for some
time afterward, while the temperature
remained high, much of the xenon gas
(including xenon 136 and 134, which
were generated relatively quickly) was
'driven off'.

20
[missing stuff again with same state beliefs]


incorporated into growing grains of aluminum
phosphate.

21
[remember they said it was unlikely that aluminum was there before the 'reactions' they don't really know]


Then, as more water
returned to the reaction zone, neutrons
became properly moderated and fission
once again resumed, allowing the cycle
of heating and cooling to repeat. The result
was the peculiar segregation of xenon
isotopes we uncovered.

22
[The result of what? The result of the water they imagine 'HAD to' be there for millenia and in the right time and amount]


It is not entirely obvious what forces
kept this xenon inside the aluminum
phosphate minerals for almost half the
planet’s lifetime. In particular, why was
the xenon generated during a given operational
pulse not driven off during the
next one?

23
[GIANT leap of faith]

Presumably it became imprisoned
in the cagelike structure of the aluminum
phosphate minerals, which were
able to hold on to the xenon gas created
within them, even at high temperatures.
The details remain fuzzy, but whatever
the fi nal answers are, one thing is clear:
the capacity of aluminum phosphate

24[[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?]


The Oklo reactor
we studied had switched “on” for 30 minutes
and “off” for at least 2.5 hours.


. The more
important lessons may be about how to
handle nuclear waste. Oklo, after all,
serves as a good analogue for a long-term
geologic repository,


25 [dangerous false prophesy]

The Oklo reactors may also teach scientists
about possible shifts in what was
formerly thought to be a fundamental
physical constant, one called (alpha),
which controls such universal quantities
as the speed of light [see “Inconstant
Constants,” by John D. Barrow and John
K. Webb; Scientifi c American, June].
26
[fables like Oklo form basis of alpha now?]


For three decades, the two-billion-year old
Oklo phenomenon has been used to
argue against alpha having changed. But last
year Steven K. Lamoreaux and Justin R.
Torgerson of Los Alamos National Laboratory
drew on Oklo to posit that this
“constant” has, in fact, varied signifi -
cantly (and, strangely enough, in the opposite
sense from what others have recently
proposed).


27 [so - opposite now of what they said then]


-------------------------------------------------

"He explained that, after the fission process had finished, a geological shift caused the Oklo reactor to sink a few miles below the surface - where it was 'preserved from erosion'.
28
[proof?]

A few million years ago, 'another shift' brought the uranium deposits back to the surface. "
29
[proof?]

Natural Nuclear Reaction Powered Ancient Geyser | LiveScience



[Manhattan project head oversees ocklo for US.]



Shortly after this astonishing discovery, physicists from around the world studied the evidence for these natural nuclear reactors and came together to share their work on “the Oklo phenomenon” at a special 1975 conference held in Libreville, the capital of Gabon.


"
The next year George A. Cowan, who represented the U.S. at that meeting (and who, incidentally, is one of the founders of the renowned Santa Fe Institute, where he is still affiliated), wrote an article for Scientific American [see “A Natural Fission Reactor,” by George A. Cowan, July 1976] in which he explained what scientists had surmised about the operation of these ancient reactors."

The Workings of An Ancient Nuclear Reactor - A Two Billion Years African Uranium Deposit




"Uranium is soluble in water only in the presence of oxygen. Therefore, the rising oxygen levels during the aging of earth may have allowed uranium to be dissolved and transported with groundwater to places where a high enough concentration could accumulate to form rich uranium ore bodies. Without the new aerobic environment available on earth at the time, these concentrations probably could not have taken place."

Natural nuclear fission reactor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Imaginary ages needed to deposit stuff..

"
However, Dr. Glenn T. Seaborg, former head of the United States Atomic Energy Commission and Nobel Prize winner for his work in the synthesis of heavy elements, pointed out that for uranium to “burn” in a reaction, conditions must be exactly right. For example, the water involved in the nuclear reaction must be extremely pure. Even a few parts per million of contaminant will “poison” the reaction, bringing it to a halt. The problem is that no water that pure exists naturally anywhere in the world.

Besides, several specialists in reactor engineering remarked that at no time in the geologically estimated history of the Oklo deposits was the uranium ore rich enough in U-235 for a natural reaction to have taken place.

Even when the deposits were first formed, because of the slow rate of radioactive disintegration of U-235, the fissionable material would have constituted only 3 percent of the deposits—far too low a level for a nuclear reaction. Yet a reaction did take place, suggesting that the original uranium was far richer in U-235 than a natural formation could have been."
Cassiopaea

Proof?




Here are a few observations on the Oklo fable. No wonder you scurry off.
 
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Incariol

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Science involves knowing.

I have a better idea, you join a research lab, actually do some science before coming on here and trying to tell the rest of us what science involves, since you clearly have no idea.

It does not. To put it simply, science is mostly

"Wow, why does this happen?"

"I haven't the faintest idea."

"Well, lets do [brainstorm experiment here] and see if that gives us an idea."

"Sounds good to me."
 
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dad

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I have a better idea, you join a research lab, actually do some science before coming on here and trying to tell the rest of us what science involves, since you clearly have no idea.
Sure, Name one that researches the state of the past?
It does not. To put it simply, science is mostly

"Wow, why does this happen?"
Exactly, toddlers playing in the present state playpen.
 
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Incariol

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Tiberius

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Are you still playing this silly game? I've already explained to you how science has confirmed the past state of the universe was the same as it is now.

Let me explain it again.

Radio dating uses the radio active decay of a material to see how old it is. You can read a good explanation of it HERE. In short, it relies on the known rate at which one material decays into another.

Now, here's where we prove that dad is wrong.

There are several different techniques. For example, we can see how material A decays into material B, and there can be another techniques that measurs how Material X decays into Materal Y.

Now, let's assume that dad is correct for a moment, and in the past we had A --> B decay and X --> Y decay that were at different rates than what we see today. Specifically, let's assume that A decayed to B slower than it does today, and X decayed to Y faster than it does today.

If this were the case, if we date an object using the A --> B method, we'd end up with an age YOUNGER than the actual age of the object. And if we date the object with the X --> Y technique, the results would indicate an age OLDER than the actual age of the object. So if we used the A --> B technique and then checked our results with the X --> Y technique, the results wouldn't match.

Here's an analogy that will illustrate this clearer...

Let's say we want to know how old a person is. We can measure the number of birthdays they have had, or we can measure the number of times they have gone around the sun (assuming they've remained on Earth and haven't gone flying around in a spaceship).

Now, since we have exactly ONE birthday for every ONE trip around the sun, our count of birthdays and our count of trips around the sun will match exactly.

But this is assuming that people have always had one birthday per trip around the sun. What if, in the past, people had TWO birthdays per trip around the sun? Well, when we count the number of trips around the sun, we'd get one result, but if we counted the number of birthdays, we'd get a DIFFERENT result! We couldn't use one technique to check the other one.

This illustrates how we can compare the ratios of things to determine age. If the ratio between the two changes, then the techniques will give different results, and we'll know that either we messed up somewhere or the ratios weren't the same. However, whenever we do this in the real world, the results ALWAYS match. This is IMPOSSIBLE if what dad says is true.
 
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VirOptimus

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Heh, the OP clearly doesnt understand the implications of the scenario he is pushing. A "different state" past where the laws of physics where different is not something you can handwave into existance. The laws of physics is a result of the properties of materia, space etc. and therefore not mutable.
 
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RickG

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Science claims to know and spews out anti bible alternative creation stories as a matter of course. Once we expose that as not being science then science cannot belong in a science forum!

There is nothing in the scientific literature that does any such thing. Please don't make claims you cannot back up.
 
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