Difference between Works of the Law and Faith

[Soyeong]

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Hello and welcome to the forum, that is a great image.

What I have discovered about Paul and the others is that they do not speak or preach beyond foremost of all what Jesus the Messiah had taught, or beyond what the Old Testament had told and prophesied for purposes of gathering information, examples, and facts. To me that means I can find out exactly what each of the writers of the New Testament are truly saying. The only thing that keeps a person from seeing and understanding scripture is about where they are in their "Faithful" walk with the Lord, or that they are completely blind to understanding scripture. I remember what it was like to be completely blind while reading God's word, until I truly turned to Jesus...

I agree that everything taught in the NT is based on what was taught in the OT, and in particular there has never been a person other than Jesus whose teachings were more thoroughly rooted in the OT. It's to the point that whenever he taught something we should be trying to pick up on the key elements and trying to find what they are references to in the OT in order to gain a fuller context.

16 When one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

The veil was preventing people who read the OT from seeing that the goal of everything in it is to testify about how to know Christ through being transformed into his image, though it is a veil that works both ways by preventing those who focus on the NT from seeing the same thing. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact image of God's nature, which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, expressing his nature through following his example is the way to believe in the Son.

1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:16-18; 2 Corinthians 4:1-6

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham (Galatians 3:8), and all of the promises that were made to him were in regard to the Kingdom of God.

John wrote about Jesus...

31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so that combined with John 3:36 means that expressing God's nature through following Christ's example of obedience to God's commandments is again the way to believe in Jesus. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

It's common knowledge that the New Covenant is about having Faith in Jesus and not the Works of the law. Jesus Himself mentioned the faith of Abraham, and Paul said about Abraham's faith is Abraham "Believe God." Jesus healed many based on their faith of belief and the writer of Hebrews in chapter 11 wrote about how so many responded in faith, but this writer's intention was not to individualize everyone's faith but to imply "Faith comes from Hearing, and Hearing through the Word of Christ" just as Paul wrote in Romans 10:17.

1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. Hebrews 11:1-2

6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6

I agree that the New Covenant is about having faith in Jesus and not about works of the law, through again the Bible directly contrasts God's law with works of the law, and God's law is His instructions for how to have faith in Jesus. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is of someone doing works, and there are many other verses that connect our faith with our obedience to God, such as in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Hebrews 3:18-19, it connects disobedience with unbelief. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience is described as breaking faith.

Moses came after Abraham. Abraham wasn't given a List of laws to perform like Moses and the Israelites, yet the Lord God told Abraham's son Isaac about Abraham's faithfulness in Genesis 26:5...

4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, 5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

Genesis 26:5 is the Lord God Jesus commending Abraham for his faith. Faith is believing then becoming obedient when Hearing God, and all the writers of the New Testament heard God, and in and through Jesus from the Father in Heaven. They all wrote warnings of this nature...

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. Colossians 2:8-10

In Genesis 26:4-5, you underlined Abraham hearing God's voice, guarding His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, so that contradicts your claim that he wasn't given a list of laws to perform like Moses. In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he might teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring about all that he has promised, which is directly connects to the promises and Abraham's obedience in Genesis 26:4-5. Furthermore, in Deuteronomy 30:15-16, if they obey God's commandments, statutes, and laws by loving Him by walking in His way, then they shall live and multiply and Lord will bless them in the land that they are entering to possess, so again, the children of Abraham walking in God's way in obedience to His law is directly connected with the promises, and both Abraham and Moses walked in God's way in obedience to His law.

28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and in Matthew 11:28-30, he was inviting people to come for him for rest and to learn from him. Furthermore, by saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where God's law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls.

Judgment on False Teachers
3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license to be disobedient and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 1:3-5

God was gracious to both Moses and David by teaching them to obey His law. Likewise, in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us how to do these works in obedience to His law is itself part of the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works, and it is indeed a perversion of grace to turn it into a license to be disobedient and deny our Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

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In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of God's law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey God's law.

 

[Douglas Brian McIntire]

If you want to live life by the law and not by the Love of Jesus, I understand. I sincerely suggest you read Matthew 23.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. James 2:10

James 2:10 is an unchangeable fact and...

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 Johnn 1:8

Furthermore, not to listen to the Apostles and the true 1st Century believers in Jesus who devoted themselves to the Apostle's teachings, what follows, is where you are...

6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 4: 6

You are denying 99% of the New Testament truths spoken by God through Jesus and His Apostles. Plus, you are trying to remove the Sovereignty of God who created us, created faith, and created belief and the Power of Choice in the imagine of God within us, as if you know better than God who does not lie nor fails to keep His promises. Yet, that is your freedom.

9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the Doctrine of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the Doctrine has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. 2 John 1:9-11

Yet Jesus died for all of us while we were set apart from God, and as far it is within my means, God loves you and so will I.

Prayer for Spiritual Strength
14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. Ephesians 3:14-21

May God bless you beyond your wildest dreams and imagination!
Love you!!!

 

[Soyeong]

If you want to live life by the law and not by the Love of Jesus, I understand.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized God's law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so that is how he expressed his love and is the way to live life by the love of Jesus.

I sincerely suggest you read Matthew 23.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their obedience to God's law, but rather he was calling them to a fuller obedience to it in a manner that was in accordance with its weightier matters and free from hypocrisy. Furthermore, in Matthew 23:2-4, Jesus called for his followers to do what the Pharisees said.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. James 2:10

James 2:10 is an unchangeable fact and...

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not saying that they needed to be sinless and he was not discouraging them from trying to obey God's law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of obeying it more consistently.

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 Johnn 1:8

I have not claimed to have no sin.

Furthermore, not to listen to the Apostles and the true 1st Century believers in Jesus who devoted themselves to the Apostle's teachings, what follows, is where you are...

6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 4: 6

You are denying 99% of the New Testament truths spoken by God through Jesus and His Apostles. Plus, you are trying to remove the Sovereignty of God who created us, created faith, and created belief and the Power of Choice in the imagine of God within us, as if you know better than God who does not lie nor fails to keep His promises. Yet, that is your freedom.

9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the Doctrine of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the Doctrine has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. 2 John 1:9-11

Yet Jesus died for all of us while we were set apart from God, and as far it is within my means, God loves you and so will I.

I'm puzzled by your response because I've said nothing against listening to the Apostles, to deny any of the NT truths, to try to remove the sovereignty of God, to suggest that I know better than God, or to suggest that God lies, or to suggest that God fails to keep His promises, or against abiding in the Doctrine of Christ, or to deny that Jesus died for all of us while we were set apart from God. Furthermore, what I have said in favor of followers of God following what God has commanded was supported by many verses that I cited from both the OT and the NT.

 

[Douglas Brian McIntire]

Dear Soyeong,

Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that everyone is saved by the works of the Law and not through Love. Living by works alone can't save a person. Living by faith alone can't save a person, living by grace alone is a lie. The only thing that will save a person is obedience to Jesus because of Love. If you or I or anyone for that matter don't LOVE Jesus, are unwilling to do what He says, we are not saved. I didnt say that Jesus did...

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. John 14:15-23

Many believe this passage is about commandments of the laws and they are incorrect, it is about fulfilling the royal law of Love...

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. John 15:12-14

James Wrote...

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:8-13

But this is not to say that we shouldn't put sin to death within ourselves because this sin prevents us from loving God and others. and is why James also said...

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. [Of Jesus: The New Covenant Law of Love and Facts from God]

Hearing and Doing the Word
19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. James 2:16-27

The Reason why James said this is because of the 2 Greatest commandments of Loving God and others that are equal in importance. It is not about being perfect, it is about loving god with all that is in us and that loving others according to Jesus, is loving God.

 

[Soyeong]

Dear Soyeong,

Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that everyone is saved by the works of the Law and not through Love. Living by works alone can't save a person. Living by faith alone can't save a person, living by grace alone is a lie. The only thing that will save a person is obedience to Jesus because of Love. If you or I or anyone for that matter don't LOVE Jesus, are unwilling to do what He says, we are not saved. I didnt say that Jesus did...

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the works of the law that aren't of faith in Galatians 3:10-11, so Paul directly contrasted works of the law with the Law of God, and I have been speaking in favor of obeying God's law, not works of the law.

Again, the issue is that there can be many reasons for obeying God's law and what is said against incorrect reasons should not be mistaken as speaking against the correct reasons. While there are many verses like Romans 4:4-5 that deny that we can earn our justification as a wage, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 that say that only doers of God's law will be justified, so there must be reasons that our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith and love. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. Likewise, there are many verses that show that the way to love by faith, by grace, and by love for Jesus is by obeying God's law.

In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact image of God's nature, which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, which means that among other things, he is the personification of righteousness, so by doing what is righteous in obedience to God's law in accordance with his nature, we are expressing our love for the nature of who he is. So everything that God has commanded was specifically commanded for the purpose of teaching us how to love different aspects of His nature. In other words, God's law is His instructions for how to love Jesus.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. John 14:15-23

Many believe this passage is about commandments of the laws and they are incorrect, it is about fulfilling the royal law of Love...

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. John 15:12-14

There are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments, so you are not giving good justification for denying that those passages are speaking about God's law, especially when Jesus expressed his love through His obedience to God's law, so that is the way to love one another as he loved us.

James Wrote...

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:8-13

But this is not to say that we shouldn't put sin to death within ourselves because this sin prevents us from loving God and others. and is why James also said...

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. [Of Jesus: The New Covenant Law of Love and Facts from God

If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit idolatry, theft, murder, adultery, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for everything else in God's law, so the greatest two commandments are inclusive of all of God's other commandments, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two, so they are all connected. In Psalms 19:7, God's law is perfect, in Psalms 119:45, it is of liberty, and in Psalms 119:1-3, it blesses those who obey it, so when James 1:25 speaks about the perfect law of liberty that blesses those who obey it, he was not saying anything about God's law that wasn't already said in the Psalms. Likewise, in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, which has always been the law of love.

It is not about being perfect, it is about loving god with all that is in us and that loving others according to Jesus, is loving God.

I completely agree that it not about being perfect. God's law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so thinking that we need to have perfect obedience to it has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the reason why we should obey it, and it is God's instructions for how to love God and our neighbor.

 

[Douglas Brian McIntire]

Dear Soyeong,

Either you and I are talking about the same thing (semantics), or we are on different pages.

Please pick a topic: How is a person Saved?

1. Faith (Hope of things yet to come; no works?). My answer is No.
2. Believe (I believe therefore I don't need to do anything). My answer is No.
3. Grace alone? My answer is No.
4. Works alone? My answer is No.
5. Are we saved by faith alone? My answer is a "Yes!" Only if Works are included because works completes one's Faith yet it all still depends upon Jesus' approval of one's intentions (Sincerity of Heart).

If you believe or disbelieve #1 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe or disbelieve #2 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe or disbelieve #3 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe or disbelieve #4 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe or disbelieve #5 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe 'All the Above' explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe any combination of the above, explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).

Furthermore, If Adam and Even didn't fall (Sin), would there be a need for Grace (Unmerited Favor)?
Also, do you believe God caused Adam and Eve to fall (Sin)?
Do you believe the devil made them do it?
Or was it because they were enticed by the desires of their own flesh?

God Bless You!
Doug

 

[Soyeong]

Dear Soyeong,

Either you and I are talking about the same thing (semantics), or we are on different pages.

Please pick a topic: How is a person Saved?

In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted God to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to it through faith is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it.

1. Faith (Hope of things yet to come; no works?). My answer is No.
2. Believe (I believe therefore I don't need to do anything). My answer is No.
3. Grace alone? My answer is No.
4. Works alone? My answer is No.
5. Are we saved by faith alone? My answer is a "Yes!" Only if Works are included because works completes one's Faith yet it all still depends upon Jesus' approval of one's intentions (Sincerity of Heart).

If you believe or disbelieve #1 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe or disbelieve #2 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe or disbelieve #3 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe or disbelieve #4 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe or disbelieve #5 explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe 'All the Above' explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).
If you believe any combination of the above, explain why with scripture (with a yes or no and why).

The issues is that there are different senses in which something can be alone, so we can be saved by faith alone insofar as there are no works that we can do in order to earn our justification, while faith is never alone insofar as the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God's law (Romans 3:27-31). This is also how Luther could say both that we are justified by faith alone and that an idle faith is not a justifying faith. The Bible never treats faith as an alternative to doing works, but rather there are many verses that connect them. When God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, thinking that we are we are saved by grace alone apart from obedience to God's law completely would completely misunderstand the concept. We can't quote the Bible as saying that we are justified by faith alone, however, we can quote James 2:24 as saying that we are justified by works and not by faith alone, though against saying that we are justified by faith alone is specifically in regard to denying that we can earn our justification by our works as a wage, in which case James would agree because there are other reasons why our justification requires us to choose to do good works, such as faith. So I can affirm only #5 with qualification, but I think that the word "alone" tends to bring confusion rather than clarity, so I prefer to cite Psalms 119:29-30 and Titus 2:11-4 as models of what it means to be saved by grace through faith.

Furthermore, If Adam and Even didn't fall (Sin), would there be a need for Grace (Unmerited Favor)?

God is gracious to us by teaching us the way back to the Tree of Life, so before the Fall, grace was already available to them.

Also, do you believe God caused Adam and Eve to fall (Sin)?

No.

Do you believe the devil made them do it?

No.

Or was it because they were enticed by the desires of their own flesh?

God Bless You!
Doug

Indeed, there are a number of factors that show how Eve's desire warped her perception, such as in Genesis 3:6. When our desire enters the picture, we can no longer be sure if something is truly good or if we just think that it is because we desire it, which is where it becomes important to put our faith in God's word to rightly divide between right and wrong. In other words, we need to lean not on our own understanding, but in all of our ways acknowledge God, and He will make our paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).

 

[Douglas Brian McIntire]

Dea Soyeong,

What is the point of our conversation?

Does mankind have freewill (power of choice; the prerogative to choose) or not?

Martin Luther and John Calvin plus many others do not believe a person has the prerogative to choose to do good; they say "by grace alone" which their definition of grace is that a person can't do a single thing 'UNTIL' God says they can (We are robots and toys of God to do with as He wills).

I say God has already given mankind the freedom to choose what mankind wants to do.

Do you believe a person can't choose to do good; can't choose Jesus?

God created the world and the Universe and everything in it so of course it is God who leads mankind to either good or choose Jesus. But, within God's Creation what does God say about mankind's freewill choice or the power and prerogative to choose to be either for God or against God?

I believe a person is made in the image of God having the propagative to choose to do good already created within them, but the following the flesh doing evil was Adam's and Eve's individual choice against God just like the devil chose to be against God. I believe any created being can choose to do good or evil because that is first of all how God created them with his image of freewill, then after the fall of man God's unmerited favor towards humanity came to be both at the beginning within Genesis 3:22, and as an example of prerogative (freewill) Genesis 4:7. Then, when Jesus the Word appeared in the flesh HE once again reinforces God's original plan giving mankind the same opportunity and prerogative to "become children of God" through Jesus Christ who is that Tree of Life within John 1:12-13, and as an example God giving Jesus all rule and authority, Sovereignty, to ask "ALL" to come to Him and follow Him in Matthew 7;21-27 and Matthew 11:25-29 (And so many other passages) because each of these times it was God speaking as the Word. If a person doesn't choose Jesus by obeying Him, God's wrath remains on them (John 3:36).

My point has always been that God doesn't lie nor fails to keep His promises. So, When God speaks, what God has spoken stands forever, and what God promises He will always be faithful to keep; His Word Stands Forever.

Please respond Solely to what I am sharing and do not go off writing about something else other than commenting with concise written words about 'God giving or not give mankind the freewill' to either be for Jesus or against Jesus. God created within man the ability to choose, and after the fall of mankind God gave them the freedom to turn back which is God's grace as unmerited favor.

Do we Have freewill to choose Jesus? Yes or No?

 

[Soyeong]

Dea Soyeong,

What is the point of our conversation?

The point is for us to try gain a better understanding of the Bible through discussing it.

Does mankind have freewill (power of choice; the prerogative to choose) or not?

Yes.

I say God has already given mankind the freedom to choose what mankind wants to do.

Do you believe a person can't choose to do good; can't choose Jesus?

I agree that God has given mankind the freedom to choose and that we can choose to do good and choose to follow Jesus.

God created the world and the Universe and everything in it so of course it is God who leads mankind to either good or choose Jesus. But, within God's Creation what does God say about mankind's freewill choice or the power and prerogative to choose to be either for God or against God?

In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Moses presented a choice between life and death, life and a blessing for obedience to God's law, or death and a curse for disobedience, so choose life! So it was presented as a choice, which is the same choice that was given to Adam and Eve.

I believe a person is made in the image of God having the propagative to choose to do good already created within them, but the following the flesh doing evil was Adam's and Eve's individual choice against God just like the devil chose to be against God. I believe any created being can choose to do good or evil because that is first of all how God created them with his image of freewill, then after the fall of man God's unmerited favor towards humanity came to be both at the beginning within Genesis 3:22, and as an example of prerogative (freewill) Genesis 4:7. Then, when Jesus the Word appeared in the flesh HE once again reinforces God's original plan giving mankind the same opportunity and prerogative to "become children of God" through Jesus Christ who is that Tree of Life within John 1:12-13, and as an example God giving Jesus all rule and authority, Sovereignty, to ask "ALL" to come to Him and follow Him in Matthew 7;21-27 and Matthew 11:25-29 (And so many other passages) because each of these times it was God speaking as the Word. If a person doesn't choose Jesus by obeying Him, God's wrath remains on them (John 3:36).

Eating from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gave us the freedom to make judgements about what is good and evil based on our own understanding, however, our desire clouds our judgement where we can't be sure if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, so this is where we need to learn not on our own understanding, but in all our ways acknowledge God and he will make our paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6). In other words, the path to eternal life by eating of the Tree of Life comes by first undoing the damage that was caused by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil through repenting and obediently submitting our free will to God's will, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. God's law also teaches us to be children of God through Christ, which is why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to it are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10), and why Jesus will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them (Matthew 7:23).

My point has always been that God doesn't lie nor fails to keep His promises. So, When God speaks, what God has spoken stands forever, and what God promises He will always be faithful to keep; His Word Stands Forever.

Agreed.

Please respond Solely to what I am sharing and do not go off writing about something else other than commenting with concise written words about 'God giving or not give mankind the freewill' to either be for Jesus or against Jesus. God created within man the ability to choose, and after the fall of mankind God gave them the freedom to turn back which is God's grace as unmerited favor.

Do we Have freewill to choose Jesus? Yes or No?

Yes.

 

[Douglas Brian McIntire]

Dear Soyeong,

Thank you so much for your response sharing your insight of the truth.

Do you like or mind sharing personal info, for instance; sharing your testimony of how you came to know the Lord?

On a new topic: Jesus’ prayer in John 17; do you believe it’s God’s desire to see Jesus’ prayer fulfilled, that the body of Christ would be and could becperfectly one so that the world may know that God sent His Son, Jesus?

Have a wonderful week and God bless you,
Doug

 

[Soyeong]

Dear Soyeong,

Thank you so much for your response sharing your insight of the truth.

Do you like or mind sharing personal info, for instance; sharing your testimony of how you came to know the Lord?

You are welcome. I grew up as a Baptist and was one for most of my life. In my teens, I started having questions such as about how I could know that God exists or how I could know that I could trust the Bible and a figured that if what I believed was true, then it could stand up to criticism, so I joined various forums, got heavily into apologetics, and discussing the Bible has been an interest ever since, through I have since moved on to Messianic apologetics.

Around 10 years ago, I started digging into the Jewish cultural and historical context of the Bible, which I highly recommend because I found it very insightful. One thing that I saw was that I considered the Psalms to be Scripture and everything in them to be true, yet they express an extremely positive view of God's law while I held an extremely negative view of it, so I realized that if I was going to continue to believe that the Psalms are Sculpture and therefore expresses a correct view of God's law, then I needed to change my view of God's law to match the view expressed in the Psalms. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so I could not continue to believe in the truth of these words while not allowing them to shape my view of God's law. Furthermore, I recognized that the authors of the NT all considered the Psalms to be Scripture and therefore their writings should be read as through they were in complete agreement with the view of God's law that they express, so I experimented with reading the NT from that perspective, which is not a stretch by any means, and found that it made much more sense and had much more continuity than I had given it credit for. I also used this forum to test whether I could defend interpreting the Bible from this perspective before I had fully committed to it, and it has only been more and more confirmed that the whole Bible has an extremely positive view of obeying God's law.

On a new topic: Jesus’ prayer in John 17; do you believe it’s God’s desire to see Jesus’ prayer fulfilled, that the body of Christ would be and could becperfectly one so that the world may know that God sent His Son, Jesus?

Have a wonderful week and God bless you,
Doug

Indeed, you too.