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Difference between "Hypostatic Union" and "Union of Natures"?

TheLostCoin

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So, in my research between Chalcedonianism and non-Chalcedonianism (which is difficult and annoying), I'm stuck having a hard time figuring out what exactly the difference between these two is.

According to Wikipedia, the best source ever,
"Dyophysite Christians believe that there is complete and perfect unity of the two natures in one hypostasis and one person of Jesus Christ. For the Chalcedonians the hypostatic union was the center of Jesus' unity (his divinity and humanity being described as natures) whereas those who rejected the Chalcedonian definition saw his nature as the point of unity."

However, I've read online the Alexandrian term for "Nature" can mean both "Hypostasis" and "Essence."

Is there, in fact, a difference between the terms? And what exactly is this difference if there is one? What is the differences in result between an inseparable union of two natures in One Person, and an inseparable union of two natures to create a united natures?

This is really annoying to research.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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No wonder considering the source(s) ......


Perhaps someone knows a better source to find out ?

I know from other sources that this is correct, as Wikipedia isn't the only source I've used.
The question is - what does "physis" or "nature" mean in the Miaphysite definition? The word "physis"can mean both "nature" and "hypostasis", so the question becomes what is meant by "Two natures in one physis"?
 
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Union of natures would be either Miaphysitism or Monophysitism. Chalcedonianism believes in two distinct and inseparable natures that co-exist within Jesus Christ.

That isn't helpful. I'm asking the specifics of what makes these two different.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Union of natures would be either Miaphysitism or Monophysitism. Chalcedonianism believes in two distinct and inseparable natures that co-exist within Jesus Christ.

That isn't helpful. I'm asking the specifics of what makes these two different.

Since Yahweh and Yahshua HaMashiach are echad, wouldn't those -isms be incompatible with Yahweh's Word and His Life ?
 
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TheLostCoin

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Since Yahweh and Yahshua HaMashiach are echad, wouldn't those -isms be incompatible with Yahweh's Word and His Life ?

Well, no and yes - allow me to explain.

They are very important to understand, because these "isms" define who Christ was as the Son of God, and if false, can lead you to worship a false god.

For example, there was an explanation created by a man named "Nestorius" called "Nestorianism", which believed that Christ wasn't both fully God and fully man, but rather, that the Word (the Divine Son of God) was a separate person but dwelled within a human named Jesus. This is demonic, as it not only says that Jesus Christ wasn't God, but also says that the Virgin Mary couldn't have given birth to the Son of God.

And there are countless other false ideas too, like Eutychianism, which says that the Divinity dissolved the humanity of Christ, like sugar in coffee. This is also demonic, as it says that Christ couldn't save us, redeeming our fallen nature.

Miaphysitism (which is held by the Oriental Orthodox [Coptic, Ethiopian, Armenian, Syriac]) and Dyophysitism (which is held by the Eastern Orthodox [Greek, Antiochian, Russian, Georgian]) were two explanations that were developed to explain who Christ was, in response to both of these false ideas, but they both say almost the same exact thing (for example, they say "Christ is fully God and fully man in one Person, united together permanently and inseparable, while the humanity and Divinity don't mix"), and if they are actually the same thing but expressed with different words, then yes - this separation would've been against the message of Jesus Christ.

If Faith is necessary for Salvation, you better make sure that you know who Christ was, and you don't hold a false Faith.

This is the point of my post. Is there a difference? I want to know if there is any nuanced difference, particularly when the wording of the definitions change.
 
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Barney2.0

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Since Yahweh and Yahshua HaMashiach are echad, wouldn't those -isms be incompatible with Yahweh's Word and His Life ?
Miaphysitism and Monophysitism would be in conflict with Biblical teaching, but Chalcedonianism is accepted by all mainstream Christians except the Oriental Orthodox and a few other sect and cults here and there.
 
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TheLostCoin

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Miaphysitism and Monophysitism would be in conflict with Biblical teaching, but Chalcedonianism is accepted by all mainstream Christians except the Oriental Orthodox and a few other sect and cults here and there.

Without a doubt Monophysitism is in conflict with Biblical teaching, but what is heretical about Miaphysitism?
 
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Without a doubt Monophysitism is in conflict with Biblical teaching, but what is heretical about Miaphysitism?
Miaphysitism states that Jesus has two natures that have become so joined that we cannot state they are two natures anymore, or something along the lines of that.
 
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TheLostCoin

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But doesn't Saint Cyril of Alexandria say t

From the first letter of Saint Cyril of Alexandria to Succensus

"The flesh is flesh and not Godhead, even though it became the flesh of God; and similarly the Word is God and not flesh even if he made the flesh his very own in the economy. Given that we understand this, we do no harm to that concurrence into union when we say that it took place out of two natures. After the union has occurred, however, we do not divide the natures from one another, nor do we sever the one and indivisible into two sons, but we say that there is One Son, and as the holy Fathers have stated: One Incarnate Nature of The Word."

"As to the manner of the incarnation of the Only Begotten, then theoretically speaking (but only in so far as it appears to the eyes of the soul) we would admit that there are two united natures but only One Christ and Son and Lord, the Word of God made man and made flesh."

From this blog:
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/01/11/st-cyril-of-alexandria-the-one-incarnate-nature-of-christ/

"To clarify his meaning Cyril offers a creaturely analogy. “Do we not say,” he asks, “that a human being like ourselves is one, and has a single nature, even though he is not homogeneous but really composed of two things, I mean body and soul?” (p. 78; my emphasis). When body and soul are joined together to make a human being, they do not lose their distinctiveness nor is their integrity compromised. At first glance the analogy seems weak. The union of soul and body brings about a composite being greater than its parts; but in the hypostatic union the divine Son remains the divine Son, only now enfleshed."

So the question becomes, if Saint Cyril believed in both two natures "to the eyes of the soul" and one united nature, what is the difference between Dyophysitism and Miaphysitism?
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hopefully @dzheremi will maybe be along and be able to explain.

If you ask in TAW (maybe St. Justin's subforum is better) you can get some more in-depth discussions from Eastern Orthodox.

I'm interested too ... my understanding is really not much more than what is stated here and when I talk to most OO laypeople it's difficult for us to really plumb our differences in theology. So I won't try to add anything - just see what info you receive. :)
 
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dzheremi

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The difference, such that there is one, is rather simple but I suppose also somewhat difficult to grasp if you assume the two to be opposing sides (which I suppose they have turned out to be historically since Chalcedon, but I have no need for Chalcedon, so I don't think it's necessary to battle it to describe how we see things; the difference existed before Chalcedon), rather than a matter of differing emphases born out of preexisting differences between the Antiochian (dyophysite) party and the Alexandrian (miaphysite). Quite simply, we do not speak of Christ as being in two natures after the union (the incarnation), while the dyophsites do.

A selection of relevant portions from the Coptic liturgies and hymns, to illustrate the point:

"Amen. Amen. Amen. I believe, I believe, I believe and confess to the last breath, that this is the life-giving body that your only-begotten Son, our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ took from our lady, the lady of us all, the holy Theotokos Saint Mary. He made it one with his divinity without mingling, without confusion and without alteration. He witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate. He gave it up for us upon the holy wood of the cross, of his own will, for us all. Truly I believe that his divinity parted not from his humanity for a single moment nor a twinkling of an eye. Given for us for salvation, remission of sins and eternal life to those who partake of him. I believe, I believe, I believe that this is so in truth. Amen."

-- The priest's confession before the Eucharist, Liturgy according to St. Basil

"Hail to the uniting place of the unparted natures, that came together in one place, without ever mingling."

-- from the Wednesday Theotokia

"For He who was born is God, born without pain from the Father, and He was also born according to the flesh, without pain for the virgin. One nature out of two, Divinity and Humanity, wherefore the Magi silently worship, uttering His Divinity."*

-- from the Gospel response for the Nativity

"The ark overlaid, roundabout with gold, that was made with wood that would not decay. It foretold the sign of God the Word, who became man without separation. One nature out of two, a holy divinity, co-essential with the Father, and incorruptible. A holy humanity, begotten without seed, co-essential with us, according to the Economy."

-- from the Sunday Theotokia of the midnight praises (Tasbeha)

"Hail to the bridal chamber that is adorned with all types, for the true Bridegroom Who became united with humanity."

-- from the Verse of the Cymbals for the crowning ceremony

"From you the Divine appeared, Christ the King of glory united with Humanity"

-- from the praises before the Monday Theotokia during the month of Kiahk


"O people who love Christ, come see and be amazed about this mystery that was revealed to us today. For our Lord Jesus Christ, gathered with His virgin mother and our fathers the apostles, He revealed to them His divinity.

Six jars of water changed into chosen wine, through His great glory, in the Wedding of Cana of Galilee.

He who sits on the Cherubim revealed His divinity, He performed signs and wonders, and sat with men as God.The coessential of the Father, who is before all ages, today was in the Wedding of Cana of Galilee."

-- The doxology for the Wedding of Cana

etc., etc., etc.

All of these are available for your perusal at tasbeha.org's hymns library.

As you can see, we have no problems whatsoever fully affirming and proclaiming that Christ our God is 100% wholly and completely divine, and 100% wholly and completely human, and that there is neither a separation of the two natures (and yes, we can and do talk about them in that way; recall that we praise the Theotokos as "the meeting place of the unparted natures"), nor a mixture of the two, nor did either one at any point consume or overwhelm or dissolve the other.

The one point of difference, or difference in emphasis, that you are likely to find is that we do not talk about Christ being in two natures after the union, following our understanding of HH St. Cyril that we are not to divide the natures after the union, but to proclaim one Son -- one incarnate nature of the Word.

And as far as I can tell, we don't have any problem with St. Cyril's idea that we can admit in theoria, in contemplation that there are two, insofar as it's not like either loses its distinctiveness with the union, since it's not a mixture or confusion -- what is human about Christ in terms of His actions (e.g., that He ate, and slept, and wept, etc.) is indeed befitting His humanity, which He did indeed truly embody (i.e., it did not just appear to be so, as the Gnostics would have it -- it was true flesh, same as yours or mine), just as His divinity is testified to by His miracles, as we proclaim about the miracle of the wine at the wedding of Cana above. Indeed, if we had such a problem with that, we couldn't have these hymns and responses and prayers that we clearly do have. Christ not Christ if He is somehow not both, as that is the entire point of the incarnation in the first place.

Just the same, in terms of how we will talk about the incarnation as an event, or rather the 'result' of it or 'what it means' (sorry for all the scare quotes; truthfully, I find this just as annoying to talk about as you find it to research, as it's like splitting a gnat's hair 1,600 different ways), we simply stick with "One incarnate nature of the Word", which is perfectly Orthodox, and to us has some advantages over the dyophysite understanding as enshrined in the Tome. As our father HH St. Severus of Antioch put it (rhetorically!), how can one divide walking upon the water, when to walk upon water is alien to man, while to use feet is alien to God? The point being that the action is belonging to one and the same Person -- the God-man, Jesus Christ. Hence we do not have this "This nature does/receives this, while this nature does/receives that" dichotomy that the Chalcedonians have from having accepted the Tome, with which our major point of contention was and is precisely those portions which say "this nature receives insults, that nature receives glory" (or some such; I don't carry it around with me every day :)).

Hopefully this helps at least a little bit.

. . . . .

* - Boring linguistic stuff (feel free to skip this if you didn't notice how weirdly phrased the starred bit is, or if you don't care): Not that it affects the point I'm trying to make one bit, but since it bothers me to have to put it out there when as a native English speaker it makes very little sense to me and I can't explain it, I have reason to wonder whether the confusingly-worded final clause has been mistranslated from the Coptic into Arabic, and from there into English. I don't really know Coptic, but I can read it, and the Coptic ends khen fai seoousht emmof nje nimagos, ewkho enroou ewertheologin. From what I can piece together from a very general level of background knowledge and being able to use Crum's Coptic dictionary, the first part is pretty unamibiguously 'therefore/in that way [khen fai] worship [seoousht] Him [emmof; dative -- "to him"] the Magi [nimagos; nje is just the nominal subject marker which proceeds nimagos, since the Magi are the subject], kho enrou (be silent/silently) ewertheologin (??) - I'm assuming this is some kind of masculine possessive third person form of "divinity", since the root noun is clearly from the Greek, but I don't see how they're getting "uttering His divinity" from it. To utter, cry, announce, etc. in Coptic is ōsh, esh-, sh-, osh (depending; since Coptic loves making large compound words, basically every root noun has multiple forms that change depending on what kind of construction it is being used in), none of which are found attached to the root in that word. It's highly possible/probable that the entire thing is Greek and I just don't know it, since all the other words I can find at a glance in the dictionary that begin with ev/ew appear to be Greek (evlogite, evxenos, ewfimia, Ewfratis, etc.), but I don't have a Greek dictionary, so that doesn't help. At any rate, this has been translated into Arabic as سجد له المجوس. ساكتين وناطقين بلاهوته 'the Magi prostrate before Him, silently speaking His divinity'. Hmmm...
 
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TheLostCoin

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My biggest arguments that prevent me from following Miaphysitism (as beautiful as their liturgical traditions are and as pretty as their theology can be) are a couple of things, and I want to hear your opinion on them.

1. The letter of reunion with John of Antioch, in which Saint Cyril of Alexandria perfectly accepts Dyophysite Christology as being as Orthodox as Miaphysite Christology, and his letter to John of Antioch. Of course, there is debate as to whether Saint Cyril wrote these things, nonetheless he did sign his name on it. Many followers of Saint Cyril actually left him, feeling betrayed, but he felt that such a minute difference in emphasis wasn't worth a schism.

"We confess, then, our lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God perfect God and perfect man of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the virgin, according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy virgin to be the mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her. As to the evangelical and apostolic expressions about the Lord, we know that theologians treat some in common as of one person and distinguish others as of two natures, and interpret the god-befitting ones in connexion with the godhead of Christ and the lowly ones with his humanity."

"Having read these holy phrases and finding ourselves in agreement (for "there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism"), we have given glory to God who is the saviour of all and rejoice together that our churches and yours are at one in professing the same faith as the inspired scriptures and the tradition of our holy fathers."

http://www.dailycatholic.org/history/3ecumen3.htm#Letter of Cyril to John of Antioch about peace

2. The fact that Saint Cyril, in his commentary of the Gospel of John, says that in the Garden of Gethsemane, the human nature experienced doubt, but the Divine Nature immediately subdued the human nature in accepting the Will of God, which essentially says that the human nature and the Divine Nature have to play distinct roles while in the One Person of Jesus Christ, which - despite some ambiguity from out of context passages - is what Leo was trying to say in his Tome. It's clear at least to me that Leo doesn't see the Word as a separate entity from the flesh.

From Saint Cyril:

"Now,
He says, is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save one from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. See I pray you in these words again how the human nature was easily affected by trouble and easily brought over to fear, whereas on the other hand the Divine and ineffable Power is in all respects inflexible and dauntless and intent on the courage which alone is befitting to It. For the mention of death which had been introduced into the discourse begins to alarm Jesus, but the Power of the Godhead straightway subdues the suffering thus excited and in a moment transforms into incomparable boldness that which had been conquered by fear. For we may suppose that even in the Saviour Jesus Christ Himself the human feelings were aroused by two qualities necessarily present in Him. For it must certainly have been under the influence of these that He shewed Himself a Man born of woman, not in deceptive appearance or mere fancy, but rather by nature and in truth, possessing every human quality, sin only excepted. And fear and alarm, although they are affections natural to us, have escaped being ranked among sins. And yet besides this, profitably were the human feelings troubled in Christ: not that the emotions should prevail and go forward, as in us; but that, having begun, they might be cut short by the power of the Word, nature in Christ first being transelemented into some better and Diviner condition. For in this way and no other was it that the process of the healing passed over |151 even unto us. For in Christ as the firstfruits the nature of man was restored to newness of life, and in Him we have also gained things above our nature. For on this account He is also named in the Divine Scriptures a second Adam. And in the same manner that as Man He felt hunger and weariness, so also He feels the mental trouble that is caused by suffering, as a human characteristic. Yet He is not agitated like we are, but only just so far as to have undergone the sensation of the experience; then again immediately He returns to the courage befitting to Himself. From these things it is evident that He indeed had a rational soul. For as the circumstance of feeling hunger or indeed of experiencing any other such thing is a suffering which is peculiarly that of the flesh, so also the being agitated by the thought of terrible things must be a suffering of the rational soul, by which alone in truth a thought can enter into us through the processes of the mind. For Christ, not having yet been on the Cross actually, suffers the trouble by anticipation, evidently beholding beforehand that which was to happen, and being led by reasoning to the thought of the future events. For the suffering of dread is a feeling that we cannot ascribe to the impassible Grodhead, nor yet to the Flesh; for it is an affection of the cogitations of the soul, and not of the flesh. And although an irrational animal is troubled and agitated, inasmuch as it possesses a soul, yet it does not come to feel dread by a process of thought, nor by a logical anticipation of coming suffering, but whenever it happens to find itself actually involved in any evil plight, then it painfully experiences the sensation of the danger which is present. Here, on the other hand, the Lord is troubled, not by what He sees, but by what He anticipates in thought. Further it is noteworthy that Christ did not say "My flesh is troubled," but "My soul;" thereby dispelling the suggestion of the heretics. And although thou mayest say that in the ancient Scripture God said to the Jews: Your fasts and holiday-keeping and festivals My soul hateth, and other expressions of a similar |152 kind; we shall maintain that He has made use of our habits of speech, especially by reason of His helpful condescension towards us; just as also by a forced use of language He attributes to His Incorporeal Nature a Face and Eyes and other bodily organs. But after the Incarnation, if we were to explain such expressions in the same way, it would follow that He was a mere image or phantom or shadow and not truly a Man, according to the teaching of the ungodly Manes. Therefore the Word of God made one with Himself human nature in its entirety, that so He might save the entire man. For that which has not been taken into His Nature, has not been saved."

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/cyril_on_john_08_book8.htm

From the Tome:

"There is nothing unreal about this oneness, since both the lowliness of the man and the grandeur of the divinity are in mutual relation. As God is not changed by showing mercy, neither is humanity devoured by the dignity received. The activity of each form is what is proper to it in communion with the other: that is, the Word performs what belongs to the Word, and the flesh accomplishes what belongs to the flesh. One of these performs brilliant miracles; the other sustains acts of violence."

"Hunger, thirst, weariness, sleep are patently human. But to satisfy five thousand people with five loaves; to dispense living water to the Samaritan woman, a drink of which will stop her being thirsty ever again; to walk on the surface of the sea with feet that do not sink; to rebuke the storm and level the mounting waves; there can be no doubt these are divine."



I kind of have animosity for the Papal Legates who hijacked Chalcedon and wanted to force Antiochian terminology down the whole world of Christendom

(Many opponents who felt that the Tome was ambiguous actually came up with another Tome, called the "Tome of Proclus" [which we don't have] which incorporated Alexandrian-sounding terminology and cleared up any sort of ambiguity of the Tome of Leo, to which EVERYONE agreed....except the Papal Legates, who said "We will leave this Council and hold our own in Italy if you don't accept the Tome of Leo as written.").

To be fair, however, they were only trying to follow orders, as Leo felt that the Tome of Leo really made clear what the Christology was, the Papal Legates perhaps followed his orders too strictly.

Nonetheless, I believe that what gives Councils in the Church authority are the Keys; that is, the Faith; the very same Key that was given to Saint Peter, and to the Apostles and all the Churches. Whatever they shall bound on earth shall be bound in Heaven. And the question is the following: "Is Chalcedon true? Is the Definition of Chalcedon true? Is the Tome of Leo true?" And I can't find a sufficient argument against these things that isn't contradictory other than "It's ambiguous at points" or "We want to preserve Miaphysitism." And I can't see an argument which says the Definition of Chalcedon is heretical. It may be ambiguous, but we know for a fact that Saint Cyril's 12 Anathemas were used in the Council of Chalcedon as a gold standard, and the Council dogmatically upholds Ephesus. Thus, for me, Chalcedon is binding as far as I can tell, mainly in the context of these two writings of Saint Cyril which says that Dyophysitism is compatible with Miaphysitism.
 
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TheLostCoin

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If there is something heretical about Dyophysitism that Saint Cyril of Alexandria would condemn as Nestorian, other than "Saint Cyril said 'One Incarnate Nature' and anything else is heretical", in contrast to these two writings which leave the opposite impression, I'm all ears; but I've yet to find something.

I think that as long as the same Faith is expressed, terminology doesn't matter, even if one type of terminology is unjustly sacrificed to the altar of xenophobia and politics.

However, IF there is an idea that is not permissible in Dyophysitism that Saint Cyril condemns, or perhaps I'm wrong in my arguments,

PLEASE TELL ME! I just want to follow what the True Church is, without bias or prejudice, and this is just the information that I have gathered thus far.

Obviously, I think that there were Nestorian extremists who benefited from Chalcedon, like the Churches of North Africa, but at the same time, Eutychian extremists benefitted from Ephesus II. So it's not like one and not the other are gold standards without any problems whatsoever, regardless as whichever one you see as Ecumenical.
 
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TheLostCoin

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Also, forgot the question of Ephesus II: "Why wouldn't Ephesus II, which sacrificed Antiochian terminology, be canonical in excommunicating the Antiochians, which came before Chalcedon? After all, most of the Church representatives were there."

But I can't wrap my head around the possibility of Ephesus II being canonical, primarily because it violated the Formula of Reunion of Ephesus, excommunicated Flavian and Leo for no legitimate reason, the latter who wasn't even called to the council or invited (possibly violating Apostolic Canon 34) or put on trial, and then put to death all those who said the same thing with different terms. Is this the Faith of Ephesus and Cyril, or the action of the Holy Spirit in Ephesus II? And as important - is this a canonical action which the Church can take?

And it was the Alexandrians who started this whole drama which caused Chalcedon to be convened, and Dioscorsus was called to come to the Council of Chalcedon to be tried, and he refused to come, unlike his mutual excommunication of Leo and Flavian. And unlike Leo, it wasn't for "heresy" that he was excommunicated, it was for uncanonically calling the Council of Ephesus II and allowing the murder of Flavian.

That's how I view it. It's not too strong of an argument, but even if Ephesus II was Canonical, I don't think that would violate the Canonical nature of Chalcedon, which decreed Ephesus II as uncanonical.


I'm sorry if this may sound offensive or like web-proselytism, but I want to here your views and your opinions.
 
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dzheremi

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I'm not sure what exactly your posts are in answer to, my friend, but it bears repeating that it's not dyophysitism as a thing or a position that we have a problem with, as though we do not accept and in fact rejoice in the reunion of our father HH St. Cyril with John of Antioch (you can read about it here on the L.A. Diocese's website, if you wish). It is the specific wording of the Tome itself, and the Chalcedonians' inflexibility in requiring their exact formula in their exact language (as in the Tome) to be confessed by us -- which is quite opposite from the approach of HH St. Cyril in the very passage that you have chosen to highlight, beginning with "Having read these holy phrases" -- that we have a problem with. Keep in mind, please, that we were never asked what we thought Pope Leo was trying to say; rather, HH St. Dioscorus was quite bluntly told that he must confess two natures after the union or lose his seat, and since that had never been the tradition at Alexandria, he would not do so. And when I have asked Chalcedonians in private on this very website why there was such an inflexibility in dealing with HH Pope Dioscorus, I was told that it is because it is a tradition among the Chalcedonians that HH wrote some kind of heretical creed together with Eutyches which he would not relent from. I was also told at that time that this supposed creed is no longer extant, so I guess its their tradition against ours at this point. I believe I'll stick with ours. I wouldn't expect nor require them to do anything else with regard to their own.

With regard to HH St. Cyril's teaching from his commentary on St. John's Gospel, can you please point me to the specific section? I do not have that book in print, and can only find it in portions online, and unfortunately to search through all 400+ occurrences of the term "will" that I can see highlighted when using my computer's "find" function is a bit too daunting at the moment. Thank you.

Again I want to emphasize here that, in so far as has been explained to me, we have no problem "interpret(ing) the god-befitting ones in connexion with the godhead of Christ and the lowly ones with his humanity", as I had hoped to make clear in my previous posting concerning His doing that which is befitting of humanity according to His humanity, and that which is befitting to divinity according to His divinity. We just do not separate them within the Person of Christ to say that the humanity (as a nature) is doing X while the divinity (as a nature) is doing Y, as though they are separate loci of experience. I had hoped to illustrate this idea with the paraphrase of HH St. Severus. Please forgive me if I have failed, or for any other thing I have left unclear in my reply (or this one, or any one forthcoming; it's a bit of a challenge to be a representative of your entire communion when in reality you are the least fit to be in that role, and indeed I am least fit).

I think ultimately, my friend, things come down on both sides to wanting to avoid extremes, because indeed on one extreme you have Eutychianism or monophysitism, which says that by one way or another only one nature is present or remains in Christ, whereas on the other extreme you have Nestorianism, which says that the humanity and the divinity are so separate in Christ as to not truly be united, but rather to be present and/or operational according to what Christ is doing, following the accursed Nestorius' stupid statement that he could never worship a God who had once been a baby (I slightly misquoted him last time this came up, but it was something very much like that; I actually don't feel too terrible about not having memorized any of Nestorius' ramblings, to be honest). So we each seek a middle way, so to speak, and hence emphasize different aspects of at least some of the same writings. If there is ambiguity in the relevant passage of St. Cyril, for instance, I don't doubt that some OO person somewhere has seized upon it to offer a different approach more in tune with what has developed of the Alexandrian Christological tradition than with what the average EO or other Chalcedonian would say about the very same passage, in the same way that Chalcedonians must also read passages from St. Cyril or others which seem to us as plain as day to say "Do not say two natures after the union" in such a manner as to allow precisely that, as that is their tradition. And again, I don't begrudge them their tradition in the slightest, it's just not mine and I have no desire whatsoever to adopt it for the sake of union with one or a 300 million people who do not understand nor follow the faith as it has been passed down to us in the first place, in the same way that they would not compromise on any core doctrinal, theological principles for the sake of achieving reunion with the Roman Catholics who, like their relation to us, would presumably require them to accept a lot of new things that have never before been a part of their tradition.

I will close with a quote from the preserved letters of HH Pope St. Timothy II ('Aelurus', as the Greeks call him) as found among the Syriacs. HH Pope Timothy II, as the direct successor to HH Pope St. Dioscorus, no doubt represents what can be considered to be the authentic Egyptian tradition immediately following Chalcedon. It is exactly what I believe with regard to how we ought to handle the Chalcedonian schism:

“If, therefore, an ordinary, simple person comes to you, confessing the holy faith of the consubstantial Trinity, and desirous of being in communion with you who acknowledge our Lord’s fleshly consubstantiality with us – I entreat you, not to constrain those who hold such views as these at all with other words, nor require from them additional verbal subtleties, but leave such people to praise God and bless the Lord in the simplicity and innocence of their hearts….Anyone who does not abuse the saints touching this declaration: ‘I confess that our Lord is our brother and that he was of the same fleshly stock as us for the sake of our salvation’, accept such an one in our Lord.”

(source: Ebied, RY and Wickham LR "A Collection of Unpublished Syriac Letters of Timothy Aelurus" in The Journal of Theological Studies, Volume XXI, Issue 2, 321-369)
 
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dzheremi

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Also, forgot the question of Ephesus II: "Why wouldn't Ephesus II, which sacrificed Antiochian terminology, be canonical in excommunicating the Antiochians, which came before Chalcedon? After all, most of the Church representatives were there."

Why would that matter one way or another when we do not recognize Ephesus II as an ecumenical council?

Actually, that should hold for the rest of your post, too.

Sorry if you were under the impression that we did, but just because we do not call it a "robber council" like Pope Leo of Rome did doesn't mean that we consider it ecumenical. It quite clearly failed in that regard, no matter what it was intended to be (and there are plenty of examples like that among the EO, so I don't see how this could be a point in favor of or against either communion).

In reality it's a rather complicated and murky issue that is not even resolved by looking at the preserved acts, but since it has not been accepted down to our own time as meeting our own standard by which we would officially add it to the three councils that we have always unambiguously accepted, then it sort of doesn't matter.

The question of how each communion looks at councils is probably an even bigger hornet's nest than even Chalcedon, and it's something that's very difficult to articulate to someone outside of the Church (I've tried in the past, but without much success). Suffice it to say that from what you've posted thus far, you seem to have decided in favor of the Chalcedonian/EO view already, which may make any further discussions on this matter rather difficult to have.
 
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