• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Difference between a fact ,theory and a guess

Status
Not open for further replies.

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Sure, but this started out about the imaginary (well... you know how it goes with that fellow) future where mammals grow feathers and wheter or not those underlying genetics would be identical accross the board with birds.

They wouldn't. That would require a replication of 300 million years of evolution.
And what, don't you believe in convergent evolution over millions of years? So why would you argue against mammals growing feathers (convergent evolution) in the future (millions of years)?????

I am confused which argument you are arguing for or against?
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,144
✟349,292.00
Faith
Atheist
No!!!!!! They are not all in relative motion with each other. They are in relative motion to each other..... There is a difference....
What is the difference?

Einstein was talking about the same approximate velocity. Such is why transforms are needed between frames not moving at approximately the same velocity....
The 'same approximate velocity' as what?

Can you provide a quote, reference, or link where he says this?


Empirically it doesn't seem to be the case, hence galaxies moving at fractions of c according to their redshift.
The clue is in the word 'moving' - this means they are in motion relative to us; i.e. they are in different frames.

By using transformations to transform between frames not moving in relative motion, you declare the physics is not the same, you just have not realized that yet..... you are transforming their physics to your physics, not merely using the same physics.....
Reference frames only have meaning in terms of relative motion; it is nonsensical to talk of 'frames not moving in relative motion'. If something is not in relative motion with respect to you or some other thing, it is in the same frame as you or that other thing; this is known as a proper or comoving frame.

I'm pretty sure I explained all this to you months ago.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,144
✟349,292.00
Faith
Atheist
There is no reason why two random processes would ever produce anything, let alone identical sequences.... but it is quite logical for a functioning design to be altered by an engineer to be used in a similar but different situation.....
As you have been told many times, mutations may be random, but natural selection is not. It is the combination of the two that leads to evolution, convergent or otherwise.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
What is the difference?
You don't know the difference between two cars moving at approximately the same speed together down the highway and one moving at a different speed relative to the other????

The 'same approximate velocity' as what?
Each other. That is what moving in relative motion to another system means.... moving at the same approximate velocity....

Can you provide a quote, reference, or link where he says this?
Its the entire postulate behind special relativity.....

Special relativity - Wikipedia

"Special principle of relativity: If a system of coordinates K is chosen so that, in relation to it, physical laws hold good in their simplest form, the same laws hold good in relation to any other system of coordinates K' moving in uniform translation relatively to K"

Objects moving at widely different velocities must have their physics transformed from one frame to the next. An object moving at a constant velocity of 100 mph and one moving at a constant velocity of 1/2 of light speed, do not share the same physics. They don't even share the same units of time or lengths of measuring rods.....



The clue is in the word 'moving' - this means they are in motion relative to us; i.e. they are in different frames.
But as Einstein explained the major point was how fast they were moving with regard to you....

"Einstein explained that when two objects are moving at a constant speed as the relative motion between the two objects, instead of appealing to the ether as an absolute frame of reference that defined what was going on. If you and some astronaut, Amber, are moving in different spaceships and want to compare your observations, all that matters is how fast you and Amber are moving with respect to each other."

Reference frames only have meaning in terms of relative motion; it is nonsensical to talk of 'frames not moving in relative motion'. If something is not in relative motion with respect to you or some other thing, it is in the same frame as you or that other thing; this is known as a proper or comoving frame.

I'm pretty sure I explained all this to you months ago.

No, you still have not figured out the difference between frames moving "with" the same uniform translation, and frames moving with relative motion to each other but not the same uniform translation.

Let us repeat:


Only in frames moving at constant speed relative to one another, are the laws of physics the same. I.e. frames undergoing no acceleration or not moving at vastly different velocities.

Frames that undergo acceleration have fictional forces.

This was made clear in his General Relativity.

Einstein's General Relativity Theory: Gravity as Geometry - dummies

"Einstein’s basic principle was that no matter where you are — Toledo, Mount Everest, Jupiter, or the Andromeda galaxy — the same laws apply. This time, though, the laws were the field equations, and your motion could very definitely impact what solutions came out of the field equations."

So the same laws applied no matter your place in the universe as long as the speed was constant relative to one another or did not greatly diverge. And then he made it clear that your motion could very definitely impact what solutions came out of the field equations.

Since those galaxies are accelerating away from us, or in the case of our local group towards or away from us, they are not under constant velocity, but acceleration, and hence their motion impacts what solutions come out of the field equations.

Even the earth is undergoing acceleration, hence the fictitious force of the Coriolis and centrifugal force.

If the laws of physics were the same between an object moving at 100 mph and one moving at 1/2 of c, no transformations would be required between them, they would already be the same.....

You MUST convert their measurements to your measurements. Which if you bother to think about it means they are not measuring the same thing you are. Their second is not the same duration as your second. Their ruler is not the same length as your ruler. The time and distance they measure for light is not the same time and distance you measure for light. It is RELATIVE to the velocity of each frame......not the same in each frame.

They remain constant to each frames point of view, because frame A calls his ticks a second just as frame B calls his ticks a second, even if neither frame is of the same duration.... The second in frame A is not the same as in frame B, hence frame B must be transformed to the same time unit of frame A in order to compare them...

To put it simply 1 light year to frame A is not the same distance as in frame B. Frame A does not measure the same charge of an electron as does frame B, he can't, his clocks and rulers are not the same duration or length. His electron charge is relative to his energy content as B's is relative to his energy content. they are NOT the same...... This is what RELATIVE means, each to its own frame due to its own energy.

If everything was the same and truly constant, there would be no need of Relativity and transformations..... If frame A equaled frame B then conversion would be unnecessary and they would not be Relative, but equal.....

Only in frames moving with the same approximate velocity are things equal. Then no conversions are necessary.....

And such is why you will never find an explanation in mainstream as to why the speed of light always calculates to c. They have no answer, because they treat this frame as absolute, not relative....
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
As you have been told many times, mutations may be random, but natural selection is not. It is the combination of the two that leads to evolution, convergent or otherwise.
Natural selection is random regardless of the PR hype. It is totally random whether a mutation leads to more offspring or less. It is totally random whether a volcano explodes and makes a species go extinct.... it is totally random whether the seeds are big and plump because of abundant rainfall or small and desiccated due to arid conditions. It is just pure blind luck that any variation may or may not thrive in the current conditions, which are subject to change randomly at any given time....

Please take that PR hype somewhere where it might be believed. like to non rational people.....
 
Upvote 0

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
7,014
3,449
✟244,331.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Be happy about science taking yet another leap forward.

But bad example though - bloodletting has about as much to do with science as alchemy and astrology
You missed the point. The science community at one time believed it was factual, therefore just because something is declared fact doesn't mean it is.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,144
✟349,292.00
Faith
Atheist
You don't know the difference between two cars moving at approximately the same speed together down the highway and one moving at a different speed relative to the other????
If they're moving in the same direction at the same speed, they're not in relative motion. If you can't answer the question, just say.

Each other. That is what moving in relative motion to another system means.... moving at the same approximate velocity....
You're having a laugh - obviously, if A & B are in relative motion, A is moving at exactly the same speed relative to B as B is to A.

Its the entire postulate behind special relativity.....

Special relativity - Wikipedia

"Special principle of relativity: If a system of coordinates K is chosen so that, in relation to it, physical laws hold good in their simplest form, the same laws hold good in relation to any other system of coordinates K' moving in uniform translation relatively to K"
So Einstein did not say anything about "the same approximate velocity" in Special Relativity.

But as Einstein explained the major point was how fast they were moving with regard to you....
Not just you, but any observer.

No, you still have not figured out the difference between frames moving "with" the same uniform translation, and frames moving with relative motion to each other but not the same uniform translation.
Frames in relative motion are moving with respect to each other; that's what 'in relative motion' means. If they're not accelerating, they will be in uniform motion (translation) with respect to each other.

Your distinction is meaningless unless you're describing their motion relative to an observer in a third frame - in which case you need to make that explicit and explain why you think it relevant.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,144
✟349,292.00
Faith
Atheist
Natural selection is random regardless of the PR hype. It is totally random whether a mutation leads to more offspring or less.
The mutation is random, but natural selection clearly isn't. For example, a mutation that prevents reproduction will not persist into subsequent generations of the population. It will be selected out by the reproduction 'filter'. A mutation that confers an advantage in reproduction will persist into subsequent generations and may well become fixed in the population.

C'mon, this is simple stuff.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
You missed the point.

I don't think so.


The science community at one time believed it was factual, therefore just because something is declared fact doesn't mean it is.

Facts can be wrong, yes. But then it wasn't a fact to begin with, off course.
But sure, people can mistakenly label something as being a fact.

The first requirement in intellectual honesty, is being able to admit that what you believe to be true, might be wrong.

The second requirement is to simply accept the evidence that shows you wrong, if such evidence is presented, and change your beliefs accordingly.

And then rejoice, because you just learned something and learning is good.

So it seems I did get your point. You just don't like the answer.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Arguing on this Forum on and off for some 15 years now I have noticed that many people seem unable to distinguish what can be definitely known (ie a fact ) and what is a scientific theory and what is a guess.

This thread is going to offer a definition which no doubt a whole load of people will disagree with.

FACT:A fact is demonstrable with repeatable experimentation that anybody with the right equipment and appropriate training could duplicate.

THEORY:A scientific theory is a way of explaining a lot of facts by presenting a model which handles this evidence in a plausible fashion. The value of a scientific theory is weighted by:

1) its explanatory power
2) its ability to duplicate what is described ie. A theory of lifes emergence should also be able to facilitate the creation of life or refer to credible sources with a proven track record of creating life or it is merely a guess
3) by the ability to predict events before they happen e.g. an Asteroid will hit Jupiter at 5 o clock Friday. The sun will rise on January 1st in Lagos Nigeria at precisely....

GUESS:On this Basis I would suggest that the three pillars of modern naturalistic science are all guesses and should be regarded with a degree of agnosticism at best:

1) Big Bang
2) Chemical Emergence of Life - absolutely no supporting factual evidence whatsoever!!!!
3) Biological Evolution

EDIT:
As a result of the subsequent discussion I think it is worth distinguishing between historical and scientific facts. The battle of Waterloo for example is an historical fact verified by innumerable high quality witnesses and sources. But it is not a scientific fact cause it cannot be demonstrated incontrovertibly to have taken place.
The pupose of a theory is to unify the facts. The problem with inductive methodology is that you make inferences on the larger ser of facts based on a smaller subset of facts. Your never going to get to origins that way, it moves you in the other direction. For origins you need metaphysics which is something theology provides.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: mindlight
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
The pupose of a theory is to unify the facts. The problem with inductive methodology is that you make inferences on the larger ser of facts based on a smaller subset of facts. Your never going to get to origins that way, it moves you in the other direction.

Working with subsets of data is not a choice. It's an inevitability. It's the best you can do.
And that's why theories/hypthesis are tested against new data.
For origins you need metaphysics which is something theology provides.

That makes no sense at all.
Theology provides nothing of value when it comes to unraveling the mysteries of reality. Nothing.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
If they're moving in the same direction at the same speed, they're not in relative motion. If you can't answer the question, just say.
False assumption. What direction they are moving is irrelevant, only that they move at the same approximate velocities.

You're having a laugh - obviously, if A & B are in relative motion, A is moving at exactly the same speed relative to B as B is to A.
That’s just it, we can never tell. A could be moving at 1/2 of c and B moving at 1000 mph and you would never know. All your devices say you are stationary. All you know is that A or B is moving at 1/2 of c plus the 1000 mph RELATIVE to the other.... and we already know that objects moving at different velocities have different units of measurement.

So Einstein did not say anything about "the same approximate velocity" in Special Relativity.
Sure he did, use your brain. If B must be transformed into the measurements of A, then the measurements are not the same....

Not just you, but any observer.
No, just observers moving at the same approximate velocity. Hence all other observers not moving at your velocity have clocks of a different duration and rulers of a different length.

Frames in relative motion are moving with respect to each other; that's what 'in relative motion' means. If they're not accelerating, they will be in uniform motion (translation) with respect to each other.
No such frame exists......

Your distinction is meaningless unless you're describing their motion relative to an observer in a third frame - in which case you need to make that explicit and explain why you think it relevant.
You must adjust GPS clocks. No third observer is required. Their rate is not the same as yours. They neither measure the same time as you nor the same distance as you, because their velocity is not approximately equal to yours.

They are moving relative to you, and yet they do not measure the same time or length you do......

This is why the meter was redefined, because reality did not match theory. Redefining the meter was the rescue device. Rulers increase in length at higher velocities, not shrink.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
The mutation is random, but natural selection clearly isn't. For example, a mutation that prevents reproduction will not persist into subsequent generations of the population. It will be selected out by the reproduction 'filter'. A mutation that confers an advantage in reproduction will persist into subsequent generations and may well become fixed in the population.

C'mon, this is simple stuff.
It won’t be “selected” by anything, it will just not reproduce because of infertility, totally random because the mutation was random....

Nothing will choose whether or not it passes on offspring. It was just pure dumb luck it is infertile......
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
You missed the point. The science community at one time believed it was factual, therefore just because something is declared fact doesn't mean it is.
They didn’t miss the point, they purposefully avoided it. Just like they avoid the fact that everything we once believed as fact has been overturned about every 200 years and shown NOT to be true.

But then everyone believed what they thought was true then too, even though centuries later it turned out not to be true at all. They of course made the same argument against the theories that were false before, while declaring their new temporary truth.... which of course was replaced with a new truth....

And on and on and on it goes..... everyone always thinks that this time they got it right.... and then bam...... the next round begins....
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Working with subsets of data is not a choice. It's an inevitability. It's the best you can do.
And that's why theories/hypthesis are tested against new data.
And then ignored when the data shows bacteria remaining bacteria, fruit flies remaining fruit flies, finches humping like rabbits right in front of their noses.....

That makes no sense at all.
Theology provides nothing of value when it comes to unraveling the mysteries of reality. Nothing.
Theology started what you call science, because people expected to be able to explain logically a universe created by a being of logic.

Newton didn’t come to the theory of gravity because he expected to find randomness.... He expected to find a logical explanation to a designed universe.....

All the hard sciences were discovered by believers, today the faithless merely refine on the foundations Theology built....
 
Upvote 0

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
7,014
3,449
✟244,331.00
Faith
Non-Denom
No it didnt.

Facts are facts.

Ha, facts are facts that are truly facts. Water boils at temperature of 211.9 °F. That's a fact that can't be considered otherwise. There's a whole world of "so called facts" which are only just that demonstrated later not to be so.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Ha, facts are facts that are truly facts. Water boils at temperature of 211.9 °F. That's a fact that can't be considered otherwise. There's a whole world of "so called facts" which are only just that demonstrated later not to be so.
Except it can be considered otherwise, as that fact is only a fact at the limited area of sea level. That’s another so called facts which were demonstrated later not to be so by boiling water on Mount Everest or the Dead Sea.

So although water boils at 211.9 degrees Fahrenheit, this fact only applies in the specific circumstance of sea level on Earth.... at any other pressure a “new fact” emerges.....
 
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Yet, evolution sometimes solves the same problem through similar genetic solutions. Yet, they take different evolutionary pathways to get there.

if its possible to get similar genes by convergent evolution its also possible to get identical genes by convergent evolution. so evolution has no problem to explain convergent at the genetic level too.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.